Is the richness ie gold cups and paintings of the Catholic church in Rome a problem?.....

[MartinJordan]

My bro in law a former Catholic says that the Church is too rich, with all those gold cups and paintings and expensive artifacts and what not. He says he left because the Church (which he admits was the “First Church”) forgot its humble beginnings.

Is this a thought some non-Catholics have as well?

However, let me ask did Jesus actually forbid riches in all circumstances?

MJ

 

[Monergistic]

Stewardship can be and often is defined as utilizing and managing your resources for the glory of God and betterment of His creation, in a manner that honors God and impacts eternity.

If you’re an average middle-class Evangelical living in America, you are probably somewhat aware of how wealthy you are compared to the rest of the world, and you probably feel some responsibility to use the resources God has given you in order to glorify Him. As a middle-class American (and at this point, it doesn’t matter what your specific religious affiliation is), investing in gold cups does not seem like a good way to accomplish that. This is what museums are for, or anyone else who’s interested in making societal contributions that are somewhat valuable but not strictly geared toward Christian stewardship. And if you are a middle class American evangelical, the individual mandate of Christian stewardship applies equally to very large institutions.

These are the people who talk about individuals who choose not to spend more than they have, and perhaps the United States government should take note and learn to do this as well. We live within our means, please tell Congress or the President or whoever. It’s that kind of logic that…well, it actually makes sense to a lot of people. Stewardship expectations for individuals and for much larger entities are pretty much one and the same. An individual collector of expensive gold cups isn’t really doing wrong, but there is an element of opportunity cost where they could be practicing Christian stewardship rather than go hard on that sort of collecting. Likewise, a very large church isn’t exactly doing wrong when it invests in this and that, but what is a church really supposed to be doing with limited resources- be a curator and collector, or an institution that makes a very regular habit of managing its resources to the glory of God and the betterment of His creation, in a manner that honors God and impacts eternity? Obviously the CC does plenty to that end; the least of these belong to the CC in a unique and admirable way and the education thing is something that Evangelicals can look to as an example to live up to. But the collecting thing does seem a bit like an unrelated side project that isn’t really geared toward Christian stewardship.

I think about Catholic orphanages, hospitals, charities. I think about private Catholic schools that aim to educate underprivileged youth. And then I think about rooms that are filled with really really expensive stuff, and only one of these things makes me go “Why?” The other things are fairly self-explanatory.

Feel me?

 

[Morwenna]

Some items that come to mind:

John 12:1-8:

Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Laz′arus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; Martha served, and Laz′arus was one of those at table with him. 3 Mary took a pound of costly ointment of pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the ointment. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, 5 “**Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii[a] and given to the poor?” **6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it. 7 Jesus said, “Let her alone, let her keep it for the day of my burial. 8 The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”

Exodus 25:10-40 and 26:1-37 and 27:1-21 Too long to post, but these passages contain God’s own request for His worship in the Tabernacle. Notice that all the materials are rare and costly:

Here is the link to read: biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2025-27&version=RSV

 

[MartinJordan]

Some items that come to mind:

John 12:1-8:

Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Laz′arus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; Martha served, and Laz′arus was one of those at table with him. 3 Mary took a pound of costly ointment of pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the ointment. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, 5 “**Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii[a] and given to the poor?” **6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it. 7 Jesus said, “Let her alone, let her keep it for the day of my burial. 8 The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”

Exodus 25:10-40 and 26:1-37 and 27:1-21 Too long to post, but these passages contain God’s own request for His worship in the Tabernacle. Notice that all the materials are rare and costly:

Here is the link to read: biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2025-27&version=RSV

This! Absolutely enlightening.

Ive been trying to explain to my bro in law that he needs to look at the full context. This I must put forth to him for his comments.

Case in point, in Exodus people in general look at the first half of it, and perhaps with scant attention to the other half.

MJ

 

[Holly3278]

Those “gold cups” are most likely chalices which hold the Precious Blood! What is so wrong with using fancy chalices and patens for the Eucharist which is literally Jesus Christ?

 

[MartinJordan]

Those “gold cups” are most likely chalices which hold the Precious Blood! What is so wrong with using fancy chalices and patens for the Eucharist which is literally Jesus Christ?

Right. I agree. Infact during the Eucharistic Doxology when the Chalice (of Gold) and the Lord’s Body (Eucharistic Host) is being held up, the Priest will say:

Through him, and with him, and in him, O God, almighty Father, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, forever and ever. Amen.

The focus and honour and the “richness” is for God’s Greater Glory.

MJ

 

[Rete]

I cannot understand this sentiment at all.

From my perspective, it would be incredibly offensive if we fail to offer to God the best materials and craftsmanship our communities can afford. That’s not because of the inherent worldly value of the materials, but a reflection of our putting the Lord first in our lives.

Why, after all, did several generations in Europe put so much of their paltry wealth and short lives into building magnificent cathedrals? If using a gold chalice is somehow inappropriate, then certainly massively expensive and labor-intensive cathedrals would be out of the question.

I have said it before and will say every time somebody repeats something like this sentiment to me: what kind of nation are we who spend more time and money in building more elaborate and expensive places of entertainment, such as IMAX movie theaters, than in our churches. What does that say about us as a people?

 

[KathleenGee]

How can we provide proper worship and honor to the Lord??

Yes, reading Exodus and the ancient Jewish liturgies, the Lord needs to show us and teach us how He wishes to be worshipped and honored, and there are many references in the Old Testament referring to offer up the first fruit, the first born in sacrifice to the Lord.

Even minute description was given in how the priests were to be vested.

Yes, and all the more glory for the Lord Who now remains with us, and deserves the finest of creation to hold and shelter Him.

No one owns anything in the Church. It is the perception that men own it. But truth is no one single person or entity owns the Catholic Church but Christ Himself Who animates and sustains it. The Church is the Lord’s Bride. She is in union with Him, and He has dressed her in the finest likewise of His creation.

The Lord does not squander riches and splendor for Himself but extends them to His Church and to us. All of us feel the Church belongs to us as members in Christ, but not this worldly possessiveness. Rather as Martin says, it is all in the spirit of openness and glory and praise to the Lord.

 

[Reuben_J]

Those gold cups, paintings, expensive artifacts and what not, do not have any material value as they are not for sale. They are there for God’s glory and simple reminder of the history of the Church. I would not make a great deal out of them but seeing them would certainly remind me of the rich tradition of the Church. Apostolic Succession is about being able to trace our lineage right to the apostles. The Catholic Church is one church today that still can do this and not only that but able to show artifacts and treasures that the successors of the apostles had used and held in their hands for the glory of God. Should not be a big deal. The Church keeps them rather than auctions them or gives to the poor. The Church is dynamic and everything has its own purpose.

 

[MaryT777]

Interesting topic.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Interesting topic.

Will the richness of Heaven be a problem? I would estimate that Heaven would make the most beautiful and ornate church building of this earth look like a slum by comparison.

 

[Columba_Tom]

My bro in law a former Catholic says that the Church is too rich, with all those gold cups and paintings and expensive artifacts and what not. He says he left because the Church (which he admits was the “First Church”) forgot its humble beginnings.

Is this a thought some non-Catholics have as well?

However, let me ask did Jesus actually forbid riches in all circumstances?

MJ

Oh yes. We’ve got loads of people like this. In the 1530s it got really out-of-hand. All the monasteries were stripped of treasures and land, the faithful were brutally murdered, the schools, hospitals, orphanages and all social works were closed down. Handouts to the poor were ended, along with all legal priestly practice. Result? A handful of families became immensely rich, and secured enough power in the realm to protect their interests for the next four centuries. It took till the Clapham Saints (an evangelical movement of 1780-1830) before the old problems were addressed again. Nothing to do with using the “wealth of the church”. Catholic emancipation followed, and we started again, materially, from scratch.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

My bro in law a former Catholic says that the Church is too rich, with all those gold cups and paintings and expensive artifacts and what not. He says he left because the Church (which he admits was the “First Church”) forgot its humble beginnings.

Is this a thought some non-Catholics have as well?

However, let me ask did Jesus actually forbid riches in all circumstances?

MJ

People often criticize but they often do not know what they are saying.

It should be recognized that the bulk of the Church’s artistic patrimony belongs to the Church, and was not taken. The Catholic Church paid for it, sponsored it, and assumed responsibility of taking care of it.

I wonder how many governments would really be willing to assume the onerous task of paying for the maintenance and restoration of all of these historic treasures. I know the Italian government, for example, is already stretched to the max in that regard. The Ministry of Culture simply cannot maintain the country’s artistic treasures as it is! If the Catholic Church were simply to “donate” its patrimony in Italy to the government, the ministry would probably collapse from the weight. I assume it would be the case around the world.

So we should probably be thanking the Church for paying for the upkeep of these glorious treasures. Additionally, these works of art and glorious cathedrals were conceived on one ground - to edify God and give him proper reverence. I think few churches today compare to the awe and majesty of the ones built in the past.

Further, does your brother-in-law know that the Church is probably one of the biggest - if not THE biggest - charitable organization on the planet? What secular government gives as much as the Church?

 

[GaryTaylor]

And of what value would the paintings in the Sistine Chapel be to anyone?

 

[Brando]

The argument is basically one that supports the richest at the expense of everyone else. The only way to make money off of the art would be to charge people to view it or, more what they demand, selling it to private owners. So the argument is to take priceless artwork that is for the good of all and give it to the rich. So maybe a few people could benefit from the sale of the artwork, but countless generations would never experience it as a result.

In other words, while claiming to be pro-poor, they really make an argument that is solely in favor of the rich.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[ffg]

If I was able to have a steady income and invest it over 2000 years, I think it would look hefty to those who are starting out in the business world.

Considering inflation as well, the Gold “things” and all the paintings, worth zillions, are worth so more on age, and artist, than the fact they simply exist in the hands of an organization.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My bro in law a former Catholic says that the Church is too rich, with all those gold cups and paintings and expensive artifacts and what not. He says he left because the Church (which he admits was the “First Church”) forgot its humble beginnings.

Is this a thought some non-Catholics have as well?

However, let me ask did Jesus actually forbid riches in all circumstances?

MJ

Does your brother forget Joseph of Arimathea? And Jesus did not forbid riches. While he told the rich young man to sell all he had, He didn’t tell others to do the same. In fact, He didn’t tell Zacheus to do anything, and Zacheus (of his own free will) gave HALF (not all) his goods to the poor.

IOW, we are called to do what God asks, and He does not demand universal poverty.

Christ is not just "humble peasant’. He is King of the world.
God in the Old Testament did not demand sacrifice of ‘the minimal’, or ask to be worshipped in a cardboard box surrounded by people wearing camel’s hair. . .He wanted the Ark of the Covenant (a very RICH artifact) and his worshippers wearing fine linen and jewels.

Why would God suddenly change and ask us not to give our best, but to give ‘shoddy’ and blame it on wanting to be ‘humble?’

That is FALSE humility.

 

[tarboy]

2,000 years is a long time in which to acquire some artwork. As long as the priests are not abusing church assets, people should enjoy the beauty of it all

Further, does your brother-in-law know that the Church is probably one of the biggest - if not THE biggest - charitable organization on the planet? What secular government gives as much as the Church?

FM, how could you have missed the huge growth in our deficit this past decade, and where the money went?
Our US Govt is replacing the role of church.

 

[hn160]

Why would that be a problem???

 

[andrewstx]

Stewardship can be and often is defined as utilizing and managing your resources for the glory of God and betterment of His creation, in a manner that honors God and impacts eternity.

If you’re an average middle-class Evangelical living in America, you are probably somewhat aware of how wealthy you are compared to the rest of the world, and you probably feel some responsibility to use the resources God has given you in order to glorify Him. As a middle-class American (and at this point, it doesn’t matter what your specific religious affiliation is), investing in gold cups does not seem like a good way to accomplish that. This is what museums are for, or anyone else who’s interested in making societal contributions that are somewhat valuable but not strictly geared toward Christian stewardship. And if you are a middle class American evangelical, the individual mandate of Christian stewardship applies equally to very large institutions.

These are the people who talk about individuals who choose not to spend more than they have, and perhaps the United States government should take note and learn to do this as well. We live within our means, please tell Congress or the President or whoever. It’s that kind of logic that…well, it actually makes sense to a lot of people. Stewardship expectations for individuals and for much larger entities are pretty much one and the same. An individual collector of expensive gold cups isn’t really doing wrong, but there is an element of opportunity cost where they could be practicing Christian stewardship rather than go hard on that sort of collecting. Likewise, a very large church isn’t exactly doing wrong when it invests in this and that, but what is a church really supposed to be doing with limited resources- be a curator and collector, or an institution that makes a very regular habit of managing its resources to the glory of God and the betterment of His creation, in a manner that honors God and impacts eternity? Obviously the CC does plenty to that end; the least of these belong to the CC in a unique and admirable way and the education thing is something that Evangelicals can look to as an example to live up to. But the collecting thing does seem a bit like an unrelated side project that isn’t really geared toward Christian stewardship.

I think about Catholic orphanages, hospitals, charities. I think about private Catholic schools that aim to educate underprivileged youth. And then I think about rooms that are filled with really really expensive stuff, and only one of these things makes me go “Why?” The other things are fairly self-explanatory.

Feel me?

Catholic churches are not rich. All the clergy receive a low salary and clergy in religious orders and congregations receive no salary at all they take a vow of poverty.

As for gold “cups”, I have never seen a solid gold chalice most are just plated over pot metal and inexpensive. The art is not expensive, the statues and pictures are chosen from a catalog and are inexpensive. They were usually plaster and now are mostly made of “resin” plastic.

I was raised Evangelical myself and never understood the downright cheap and ugly houses they often give to God. While they so often live in McMansions with wall to wall carpet and at least two newish SUVs in the garage.

I really think most of this is anti-Catholic myth. I was raised in a poor parish in a metal building that looked like a warehouse, the pastor there told me the chalices were made of “tin”. The school closed 50 years ago for lack of funds.