Is the Roman Catholic Church and the body of Christ one and the same?

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13476212]TWO

It sounds like you’re on a mission. What you’re really doing is making christians reading along that are not catholic think we’re living in the dark ages.

God loves everyone PJM. He desires to save everyone. All we have to do is believe in the Son to get to the Father. You quote scripture like I’ve never seen. I know the bible, you could just talk to me.

Mathew 8:22 Follow me and let the dead buy the dead.
Who are the dead? Maybe the ones who don’t want to follow Jesus?

He spoke to the rich man. When the R.M. asked Jesus what He must do to be saved, the answer was not / join my church. but to sell everything and follow Jesus.

Also, check out>
Mathew 19:25
Romans 8:38
Romans 10:9
Philippians 3:4
Hebrews 7:25

The list goes on. The bible speaks to us in a personal way. We are to read it as if Jesus were speaking to us. All lthat scripture you quote is for unsaved people. We’re a saved people PJM. All who are trusting in Jesus are a saved people.

Leaving aside Lumen Gentium, Vatican II, Pope Benedict, Pope Francis / do you really believe that Lutherans and Baptists have no chance of getting into heaven?

I’m posting what the catholic church believes regarding non-catholics. This is after Vatican Council II in 1965.

Much has changed in our church, but many refuse to believe it. Or they’re using incorrect language which leaves one wondering.

The fate of non-Catholics, as expressed at Vatican II:

bullet The “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium” (1964) is one of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as “Vatican II”). The Council was held in Rome between 1962 and 1965. Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on “The Mystery of the church.” Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of:
bullet Followers of the Catholic Church,
bullet Members of other Christian denominations, and
bullet Believers of non-Christian religions. 5

The language is difficult to follow for a lay person. However, an “Assessment of this Council” was written “as an AID to study by Catholic Students of the Second Vatican Council. They contain material, some written in a journalistic style, for the American reader.” In the section “The Constitution of the Church” the assessment reads:

“The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God’s word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize.”

As I’ve said before, we should leave God’s job to God, and that includes knowing who has attained salvation. Which brings up an interesting point. Some of our brethren tell me they can’t even be sure THEY’RE saved, but you are apparently able to tell me if even those outside the church are saved!

Fran

I just responded in detail to your previous post to this one.

I have to do what is RIGHT, What is True, What is Good.

IF non Catholics choose to consider God’s truth out of touch with “the times”

Mt 5: 11-16 “11] Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: [12] Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. [13] You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men. [14] You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.[16] So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven”

I let God worry about that.

As a certified Marian Catechist; I am called to annually renew our Vows to teach
1 What the church teaches

2 As the Church teaches

3** FULLY** as the Church teaches

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=clem456;13478297]When you post could you include the full quote function please?
You are cutting off the first quote bracket which doesn’t allow a person to click the material you are quoting.

I’m just adding “]” to QUOTE}; so help me out here. What do I need to change?

God Bless you, & thanks

Patrick

 

[clem456]

Patrick

Could you please quote the post properly?

Readers have no way of going back to read the post you are quoting.
courtesy

 

[PJM]

could you please quote the post properly?

Readers have no way of going back to read the post you are quoting.
courtesy

i can and i will if you show me how to do it. Sorry but i’m not teckie

 

[clem456]

i can and i will if you show me how to do it. Sorry but i’m not teckie

Do you see the small button at the bottom of each post where it says “quote”?
It’s in the very bottom right hand corner of every post.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I really don’t see a difference between the red stuff you wrote and what Augustine and Tychonius wrote so long ago. Perhaps you would take it further than they in terms of extending it to non-Christians, but I don’t find that to be a stretch. It still abides by the same principle.

As for others, I seriously urge that people read Tychonius’ Book of Rules, especially on the bipartite body of Christ. It would resolve this debate over whether or not a murderer undoes baptism, or is a member of the Body of Christ, etc.

A cheap English translation can be found by William S. Babcock from 1989. Or if you can read Latin, just read the version found in the Patrologia Latina.

I don’t mean to belabor the point, let me just say that I just noticed about extending the Augustine text to non-christians. No I would not. That is a long post and there’s no reason for it here. Only God knows who is searching for Him earnestly and only He can judge.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

FRAN, are you now a practicing Catholic.

You mention i the post “before I left”; and I find many of your post to at best bei on the edge of Catholic truths.

Oh! and I never found your reply to MY response on the other forum??? Maybe I just missed it?

God Bless you,

Patrick

Well, the last time I checked I was Catholic. And I don’t have to practice anymore! What I left is teaching catechism. Had to leave teaching last year. i also prepared liturgies for the sacrament of Reconciliation - they were very nice. I focused on teaching the love of Christ for us and how and why we should love Him, and making them understand that sin is a turning away from God. Repent. To go the other way.

Still have a small bible study in my home. We’re doing Mathew. My parish has started a bible study on Friday evenings, finally, and we’ll see if maybe I can stop doing that too. I enjoy it but it’s a lot of work, as you must know, and I’m not getting any younger so if the Deacon and Priest want to take over, I’d be happy! if the girls still want to continue, I’m good with it. It’s easier to ask questions in a small group and really discuss. It’s taken almost a year to get to Mathew 5. Spent a lot of time on the beatitudes.

I’m really sorry we can’t agree on such a fundamental issue as understanding that everyone who believes in Jesus as savior belongs to the Church and Body of Christ. The catholic church really has changed its position on this - sometimes it’s just how we understand things.

Fran
P.S. It’s easy to miss posts. If you remember the question, I’ll be happy to answer.

 

[frangiuliano115]

That apparently did not last long…

It seems that you have a dislike for being held accountable for what you have posted, especially when it is in error.

What we each think is really not the issue. The issue is a Catholic posting non–Catholic answers on CAF.

It is not, Fran. Priests are not infallible, and also can make mistakes.

The seal of baptism is permanent, and since this is a doctrine of the faith, a priest who thinks otherwise is not accurate.

This is the second time I’m saying:

THE SEAL OF BAPTISM IS PERMANENT.

Did I say it’s not???

I said a person could abandon the Church of Jesus Christ by murdering one person a week and not repenting.

is that not clear???

 

[frangiuliano115]

I just responded in detail to your previous post to this one.

I have to do what is RIGHT, What is True, What is Good.

IF non Catholics choose to consider God’s truth out of touch with “the times”

Mt 5: 11-16 “11] Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: [12] Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. [13] You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men. [14] You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.[16] So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven”

I let God worry about that.

As a certified Marian Catechist; I am called to annually renew our Vows to teach
1 What the church teaches

2 As the Church teaches

3** FULLY** as the Church teaches

God Bless you,
Patrick

Listen PJM

My sister-in-law got a word from God about 10 years ago.
His message to her was that she was to be a Peacemaker. You know like in Mathew 5:9. She’s a good kid. Means well.

But she created a little war in our family which took years to get over.

“Be as gentle as doves and wise as serpents.”

If I may point out - sometimes your supporting verses do not match what you’re trying to say. I don’t have hours to devote to this and give you examples - just check it out better in the future.

Fran

 

[clem456]

…
I’m really sorry we can’t agree on such a fundamental issue as understanding that everyone who believes in Jesus as savior belongs to the Church and Body of Christ. The catholic church really has changed its position on this - sometimes it’s just how we understand things.

Fran
P.S. It’s easy to miss posts. If you remember the question, I’ll be happy to answer.

Frequently these disputes are between people who essentially agree, but it boils down to who is using which words to mean what.
That’s why it’s good to simply point to what the Church teaches, in the Church’s own words.
I usually just quote the catechism when someone is disputing an item, or quote a document like Dominus Iesus.
Sometimes we use words is a way that is not consistent with the way the Church uses them.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Then you were either incorrectly instructed or misunderstood.

Christ uses in so may critical teachings that He is speaking to the Apostles [another name for THEE Church] directly and exclusively. It is gravely incorrect to bypass or gloss-over .this fact.

No BUT: There will be far more Catholics than “christians”. Because of Sacramental graces and it seems TO ME [this point being a personal opinion] that in our day and age; with technology being what it is; and with the exposure to Christ true faith being disseminated as it is; that a non-culpable ignorance position becomes harder and harder to be credible and sufficient the "Oh Gosh! I didn’t know that I HAD TO be associated with thee Catholic Church in order to be saved:

****CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.****

Certainly God Knew that “it” [singular by design and Will] would split…

What your choosing to ignore that “splitting” IS ABANDONMENT of God: the one unforgivable sin. Your position presumes in grave error that man has a right to tell God how He God must and will save them. That friend is heresy.

And NO, I don’t think ONLY Catholics will attain heaven. That said; Nevertheless the odds of Catholics attaining heaven ARE far greater than fr non-Catholic Christians…

[QOUTE]Do I mean by this that God wanted a split? Who can know. I certainly cannot know God’s mind, as it seems that you do. I do know that the split was for a reason and the church has been reforming ever since. You must admit that the church is different today than it was back in 1500, 1700, 1800 and even pre VAT II. So how do we account for that?

had and taught:

One True God

Only One possible set of TRUE faith beliefs which it is beyond the pale; to assume that GOD would have waited over a 1,000 YEARS to make known what HAVE to be and can ONLY Be His One set of faith beliefs

ANY and ALL faith believes that do NOT fully align with what the CC teaches are heresy. They COMPETE with God’s own truth.

POPE Benedict XVI said this:.
quote: There CANNOT be your truth and MY truth or there would be NO truth."

Let’s be clear!

Unless I specify other; what I’m sharing is NOT simply If beliefs are not FULLY MY personal opinion: IT IS THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH; IT IS GOD’S
FAITH ARTICULATED.

If any faith -beliefs no not fully conform to Catholic Teaching; they MUST be changed and brought into line with what Jesus Christ Himself, in 1st Person Singular taught, commands and mandates.

No where in the bible, NOT even one time has God indicated tollerance for competiting faith beliefs:

Mt. 7:21-29 Is this friend a concealed truth to you?

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven:** but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.** [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. [24] Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man** that built his house upon a roc**k, [25] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock
"YOU ARE PETER AND UPON YOU I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH singular: YOU PETER[meaning MY CHURCH] YOU GO and teach the world what I TAUGHT to YOU!] …[26] And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. [28] And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine. " Amen!

My friend, you’re positions are dangerously not CATHOLIC

May God help you correct your lack of right understanding,

Patrick

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

There’s no way I could read this PJM. No time. Let me run through quick and see if with just a few words you could understand my position.

1. There was no church yet when Jesus was speaking. so it’s strange how He could have been speaking to the church. So when He says, Do The Will Of My Father, He’s meaning that a church, and not me personally, should do the will of the Father??
2. There you again. Deciding who’s getting into the pearly gates. Those naughty christians who aren’t catholic are in such trouble! Yeah. Like when it says WHOSOEVER, it really meant only catholics.
3. Ummmm. It’s ME who’s telling God how to save people??? Hmmmm. Interesting. I can’t remember ever stating who is NOT getting saved, only that all CHRISTians are. Who follow Jesus as disciples. We must be so clear here on this thread.
4. The church has not only changed from 1500 PJM, it’s changed since 1965 if you remember. Seems like you’re unwilling to accept it.
5. Personally, I don’t know of any faith who’s doctrines contradict, or compete with God, to use your term. I’m speaking only of the faiths, or churches, that I know. If you know one, you could advise.
6. God is so intolerant. Who would want to serve such a God?
7. Lord, Lord. Okay. What IS the will of the Father?? The answer is in the previous sentence.
8. I thank you for your prayers but the Lord and I get along just fine.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Frequently these disputes are between people who essentially agree, but it boils down to who is using which words to mean what.
That’s why it’s good to simply point to what the Church teaches, in the Church’s own words.
I usually just quote the catechism when someone is disputing an item, or quote a document like Dominus Iesus.
Sometimes we use words is a way that is not consistent with the way the Church uses them.

Clem 456

I’ve quoted (but not posted - I must learn to do that) Lumen Gentium (I think 14), CCC no. 1271 and some stuff the pope has said, here and on other threads to PJM and also to others.

It’s of no use. Should I just give up? What if christians are reading along who are not catholic? It’s no wonder they don’t even consider us to be christian!

I can understand that this must be boring…

Fran

 

[adrift]

FOR ADRIFT AND GUANOPHORE

I am not reading your replies or answering them.

You can each think what you will.

The only thing I will say is that for Adrift to think HE knows more than a priest who has studied his vocation for years including basic theology, moral theology, exegesis, philosophy, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the bible including history, psychology, pastoring, the Mass and other liturgies, etc. is the height of self-righteousness.

And with that I bid you a good day.

Fran

I didn’t say I know more than a priest what I questioned was your report about what he said. I doubt that he did. It has been my experience that people misquote authority to give their own misguided opinions weight. One priest told his parishioners that he was tired of them asking if they could use the pill that the answer was no but he knew they would use it. They told everyone that the priest said it was alright for them to use the pill.
I understand when you cannot defend what you say the only thing left is to not answer. Good decision:thumbsup:

 

[frangiuliano115]

I didn’t say I know more than a priest what I questioned was your report about what he said. I doubt that he did. It has been my experience that people misquote authority to give their own misguided opinions weight. One priest told his parishioners that he was tired of them asking if they could use the pill that the answer was no but he knew they would use it. They told everyone that the priest said it was alright for them to use the pill.
I understand when you cannot defend what you say the only thing left is to not answer. Good decision:thumbsup:

Sometimes you don’t answer because readers know your point and you don’t care what any one particular person wishes to believe.

 

[adrift]

i can and i will if you show me how to do it. Sorry but i’m not teckie

OH boy we are here again Just click the quote button. Under the last quote write your reply.

 

[guanophore]

I’m really sorry we can’t agree on such a fundamental issue as understanding that everyone who believes in Jesus as savior belongs to the Church and Body of Christ. The catholic church really has changed its position on this - sometimes it’s just how we understand things.

Fran

I dont’ know, Fran, I meet a lot of folks who say they believe in Jesus as savior but live lives of crime. I think if you mean obedient belief, then perhaps.

The Church teaches that all who are validly baptized are made members of His Body. This is why the CC does not rebaptize them.

I think you are right, it is how we understand things, or not. Previously all those that left the One Faith were considered heretics or apostates. Vatican 2 and other documents have clarified that the Church does not consider Christians of other ecclesial communities heretics, but siblings.

"Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

You keep saying these people are “outside” the Church, so that EENS is no longer “valid”, but this is NOT what the Church teaches. You are misrepresenting the faith when you say they are “outside”.

Your position is actually the exclusive one. While the Catechism teaches that Christians are our siblings, you place them “outside the church”.

 

[guanophore]

This is the second time I’m saying:

THE SEAL OF BAPTISM IS PERMANENT.

Did I say it’s not???

I said a person could abandon the Church of Jesus Christ by murdering one person a week and not repenting.

is that not clear???

No, it is not clear.

I have a friend who insists that if you’re baptized you’re a member of the Body.

She is right.

I keep telling her, But what if I kill one person every week, I'm still a member? And she replies yes. So I spoke to the priest about this to make sure I was right and he said I was. You have to ACCEPT your baptism in order to be a member of the Body.

Members of the Body sin. It cannot undo their baptism. They no longer remain in a state of grace in which they were sealed in baptism, but sin does not cause a person to be “unbaptized”, “unsealed” or “unadopted”.

Perhaps he meant to say that one must accept and walk in baptismal vows to remain in a state of grace?

I respectfully suggest that YOU don't understand, not this priest.

One would have to jettison a lot of scripture to accept this point of view. Including the fact that the seal of baptism is permanent!

It says that baptism is the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. Great sentence even for those who believe that there is no salvation outside the church / but why believe the CCC?

We believe the CCC because it is a 'sure norm" for teaching the faith.

We believe that those who are validly baptized are sealed into the One Church through faith. They are imperfectly joined (not in full communion) but no longer “outside” the Church.

For men WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST and have been properly baptized… are put in communion with the catholic church.

Perhaps you will meditate on this, Fran, and cease your assertions that EENS is no longer valid?

Does someone who murders a person a week (who was my example) believe in Christ?
Does the fact that he’s baptized make any difference? Is he going to heaven anyway?

There are several non-sequitors here. A person who commits a sin may still believe in Christ. A person who lives a lifestyle of sin is not on the way to heaven.

Sin, no matter how many times it is committed, cannot undo the permanent seal of baptism. One can choose to throw away the baptismal grace, and thereby forfeit their heavenly inheritance.

I am not sure how you got from baptism to “going to heaven”. Being baptized places a person in communion with the Church. They are made members of the Body. It does not mean they will not sin, or will persevere to the end.

The arguement you are making here sounds as if you think their relationship with the Body is severed because of sin.

… baptism constitutes the sacramental bond existing amoung all who through it are reborn.

I hope this helps you see that these persons are no longer “outside” the Church.

Is our murderer reborn? Which means died to Christ and reborn in Christ.

If he was baptized, he was born again from above. Baptism does not prevent people from sinning.

Go on to 1272>

…The person baptized is configured to Christ.

Is our murderer configured to Christ?

He was on the day he was baptized. He may have lost his configuration from sin (become disfigured), but that does not undo the baptism.

**

pp no. 1274

The faithful christian who has kept the seal till the very end, remaining faithful to the demands of his baptism…
**

We can certainly say that the murderer is not a faithful Christian who has kept the seal t the very end, or has remained faithful to the demands of baptism. This falling away from the faith,though, does not “unbaptize” or “unseal” him. It just means his last state is worse than the first.

2 Pet. 2: 20For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

frangiuliano115:

Come on Adrift. Think it over. Is the murderer part of the Body of Christ??

Fran

Yes, Fran. They are dead weight, and are toxic to the Body, but the seal of baptism is permanent.

Sin damages the Body. Paul wrote about this to the Corinthians, who were visiting prostitutes.

I Cor. 6: 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.”…

Paul confirms that those who commit sin join the members of Christ to that sin.

 

[clem456]

Perhaps it would help to have a discussion about what a sacrament is.
I don’t have the time or energy to do it.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I dont’ know, Fran, I meet a lot of folks who say they believe in Jesus as savior but live lives of crime. I think if you mean obedient belief, then perhaps.

The Church teaches that all who are validly baptized are made members of His Body. This is why the CC does not rebaptize them.

I think you are right, it is how we understand things, or not. Previously all those that left the One Faith were considered heretics or apostates. Vatican 2 and other documents have clarified that the Church does not consider Christians of other ecclesial communities heretics, but siblings.

and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

You keep saying these people are “outside” the Church, so that EENS is no longer “valid”, but this is NOT what the Church teaches. You are misrepresenting the faith when you say they are “outside”.

Your position is actually the exclusive one. While the Catechism teaches that Christians are our siblings, you place them “outside the church”.

Hmmmmm.

It certainly wasn’t ME who said that anybody is on the outside!

Please go back and reread ALL my posts beginning in July 2015.

Thank you.