Is the Roman Catholic Church and the body of Christ one and the same?

[mkoopman]

… The universal Church, the mystical Body of Christ that is made up of believers is INVISIBLE. We cannot visibly identify many who are members of it, especially since some of them are not Christian.

Now you have done it, you said something that is profoundly Catholic. Some of the members of Christ’s Church are not Christian? The regenerate doctrine of some persons will come forward to bash you for this. We will always need martyrs, so you are blessed in it. For my part I will ask the Lord to help me to heed the martyrs so their blood will inflame my cold heart and lukewarm faith.

Should we even weaken this log bridge further and include some of those who were Sacramentalized but are in essence non-Christian but still may remain as members? If by what else than by grace as pertains to any and all who are grafted to Christ’s Head.

Or, am I joined to Christ as if by my own power or will? (What was the question in the Baltimore Catechism that addressed this?)

 

[guanophore]

I think the teaching on EENS has changed.

Doctrine is Teaching given by Christ to the Church, and cannot be changed.

Our understanding of the doctrine can develop and change.

I think the church fathers meant "outisde the church" meaning catholic meaning universal.

This has not changed.

  - it might be me...

frangiuliano115;13475038:

I mean, if you tell a Baptist he’s not saved, it wouldn’t be correct.

None of us is in a position to judge this. Only God knows the heart. It is not correct to tell this to anyone.

He is not a member of our Catholic church, but he is a member of the Church - see? Do we agree that he would be a member of the invisible Church?

Yes! Joined to Christ, who is the Head, though not a visible member of a Catholic parish.

I don’t think Fran is necessarily trying to include “all Christian faiths” here. He is merely reiterating the truth that the two holy fathers, Augustine and Tychonius, both asserted. That we know where the Body of Christ/Church is, but we do not know where it is not. Therefore, it is plausible that one might know God in Anglicanism, Lutheranism, etc. despite the sin of heresy. This therefore makes them partakers of grace, however impaired, and thence part of the Body of Christ, although not part of the visible institution established by Christ which holds all perfect truth (which is the Catholic Church according to you two).

(except Fran is a she).

…
Why do I separate and why this discussion with the priest? I have a friend who insists that if you’re baptized you’re a member of the Body.

The Church teaches that we are made members of the Body through Baptism.

You have to ACCEPT your baptism in order to be a member of the Body. And Church, the invisible Church.

No, Fran. Babies cannot accept or reject anything.

I do agree with your premise that, if one does not embrace one’s baptismal vows, one may forfeit their heavenly inheritance, but one cannot be “unborn” again, or be “unadopted”. If a person does not walk according to their baptism, they have a dead faith which will not save them.

Baptism is a permanent seal that cannot be changed or removed.

It says that baptism is the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Great sentence even for those who believe that there is no salvation outside the church

There is no salvation outside the Church, Fran. Baptized persons have been made members of the One Body. They may exist in an imperfect communion but all who are in Christ are in His One Body. Jesus is not separated from His Body. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

For men WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST and have been properly baptized… are put in communion with the catholic church.

It boggles the mind that you can read this, write it, post it, yet still insist that there is salvation outside the church. :whacky:

Does someone who murders a person a week (who was my example) b

elieve in Christ?

falling away from the faith will not cause a person to be unsealed by the Holy Spirit. It just means that their last state will be worse than their first!

Does the fact that he’s baptized make any difference? Is he going to heaven anyway?

Baptism joins a person to Christ, and makes him a member of the Body. It is not a guarantee that a person will be saved (unless they die immediately).

… baptism constitutes the sacramental bond existing amoung all who through it are reborn.

Here you are, Fran. Baptized persons are bonded to the Church. They are not saved outside of it, because they belong to it.

…The person baptized is configured to Christ.

And this is the case even if the person does not belong to the local Catholic parish.

Come on Adrift. Think it over. Is the murderer part of the Body of Christ??

Fran

Anyone who is validly baptized is a member of the Body. They may be dead weight, but they have been sealed permanently.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I really don’t see a difference between the red stuff you wrote and what Augustine and Tychonius wrote so long ago. Perhaps you would take it further than they in terms of extending it to non-Christians, but I don’t find that to be a stretch. It still abides by the same principle.

As for others, I seriously urge that people read Tychonius’ Book of Rules, especially on the bipartite body of Christ. It would resolve this debate over whether or not a murderer undoes baptism, or is a member of the Body of Christ, etc.

A cheap English translation can be found by William S. Babcock from 1989. Or if you can read Latin, just read the version found in the Patrologia Latina.

Rohzek,

I don’t know Tychorius or latin but I’ve read so much in 40 years and thought so much and have spoken so much and listened so much that I just am really tired of people making God into something so small that just a handful of believers are going to make it to heaven and the rest be lost.

To say nothing of the fact that the Catholic Church itself has changed its position on EENS - I do defend that all who come to know Jesus and are His disciples are saved both for this world as in the kingdom Jesus spoke of, and also in the next world in that they’ll be seeing God face to face to be with Him whom they have loved and served.

And to get stuck in nuances of speech or misunderstandings when I think of Jesus walking the Via Dolorosa, a street filled with pain, to get to that cross is rather disheartening to me.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

FOR ADRIFT AND GUANOPHORE

I am not reading your replies or answering them.

You can each think what you will.

The only thing I will say is that for Adrift to think HE knows more than a priest who has studied his vocation for years including basic theology, moral theology, exegesis, philosophy, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the bible including history, psychology, pastoring, the Mass and other liturgies, etc. is the height of self-righteousness.

And with that I bid you a good day.

Fran

 

[Vico]

Just as an aside:
Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, etc…
are not guilty of the sin of heresy.
The founders might be called heretics, and guilty of the sin of heresy (I am not knowledgeable in who has been decreed what) but the modern day followers are not guilty of “heresy”.
You can call the particular beliefs “heretical”, but…

I believe “heretic” is a legal term, and not a general term that is equated simply with “separated” or “non-conforming believer person”.

Catechism (excerpt) 2089 … "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; …

 

[clem456]

Catechism (excerpt) 2089 … "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; …

Thanks I am aware of the definition of heresy…
And the people that were mentioned are not guilty of heresy.
Research it. The Church does not consider Anglicans Methodists etc heretics. It’s an improper use of the word.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

 

[Rohzek]

Rohzek,

I don’t know Tychorius or latin but I’ve read so much in 40 years and thought so much and have spoken so much and listened so much that I just am really tired of people making God into something so small that just a handful of believers are going to make it to heaven and the rest be lost.

To say nothing of the fact that the Catholic Church itself has changed its position on EENS - I do defend that all who come to know Jesus and are His disciples are saved both for this world as in the kingdom Jesus spoke of, and also in the next world in that they’ll be seeing God face to face to be with Him whom they have loved and served.

And to get stuck in nuances of speech or misunderstandings when I think of Jesus walking the Via Dolorosa, a street filled with pain, to get to that cross is rather disheartening to me.

Fran

Well I agree that the Catholic Church has changed its interpretation on EENS over time. I’m just saying that the present position that I articulated is not too different from either Tychonius or Augustine. But really though, I urge people to read Tychonius. It’s really short and easy to understand.

 

[clem456]

Good stuff!
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION
“DOMINUS IESUS”
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
…
VI. THE CHURCH AND THE OTHER RELIGIONS
IN RELATION TO SALVATION

1. From what has been stated above, some points follow that are necessary for theological reflection as it explores the relationship of the Church and the other religions to salvation.

Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.78

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

1. With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.83 Theologians are seeking to understand this question more fully. Their work is to be encouraged, since it is certainly useful for understanding better God’s salvific plan and the ways in which it is accomplished. However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”84 which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men — which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour — it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.

 

[PJM]

=Rohzek;13475942]I don’t think Fran is necessarily trying to include “all Christian faiths” here. He is merely reiterating the truth that the two holy fathers, Augustine and Tychonius, both asserted. That we know where the Body of Christ/Church is, but we do not know where it is not. Therefore, it is plausible that one might know God in Anglicanism, Lutheranism, etc. despite the sin of heresy. This therefore makes them partakers of grace, however impaired, and thence part of the Body of Christ, although not part of the visible institution established by Christ which holds all perfect truth (which is the Catholic Church according to you two).

Thanks, very well done

My CONCERN is that we not mislead the non-Catholics who have joined CAF, one assumes to gain the Catholic Understanding.

While salvation MAY be possible outside of the Catholic Church:

1. It is conditional on NOT knowing the need to be a part of the Church

2 That All salvation does flow through the Church

1. The Sacraments; 7 of them are instituted by Christ to aid man in his trek to merit salvation
2. I have posted many time the evidence of the Catholic Church being THEE Church founded by Christ and THEE only place to learn the fullness of God’s teachings and desires for man.
3. It is correct to say that Catholics [from whom God expects more] do have a greater possibility to attain their salvation, than do a great many Protestants.

God Bless you, and thanks again for an informative reply.

Patrick

God Bless you

 

[clem456]

Thanks, very well done

My CONCERN is that we not mislead the non-Catholics who have joined CAF, one assumes to gain the Catholic Understanding.

While salvation MAY be possible outside of the Catholic Church:

1. It is conditional on NOT knowing the need to be a part of the Church

2 That All salvation does flow through the Church

1. The Sacraments; 7 of them are instituted by Christ to aid man in his trek to merit salvation
2. I have posted many time the evidence of the Catholic Church being THEE Church founded by Christ and THEE only place to learn the fullness of God’s teachings and desires for man.
3. It is correct to say that Catholics [from whom God expects more] do have a greater possibility to attain their salvation, than do a great many Protestants.

God Bless you, and thanks again for an informative reply.

Patrick

God Bless you

When you post could you include the full quote function please?
You are cutting off the first quote bracket which doesn’t allow a person to click the material you are quoting.

 

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13466672]We got into this and I’m willing to learn.

Then what do you think Luther was trying to do? The church was basically telling its people that they had to work and pay for salvation. This is why Ephesians 2:8 became the standard bearer for his beliefs. Being saved thru faith by grace and not by works.
He died believing that the host is the body and blood of Christ. You even say the faithful deserved more. What do you think was false about his movement?

I agree with everything else you say in both 2 and 3 and second the emotion. I’m also sad at the liturgy aspect of our church, as you point out.

Living here though, I think that the scandals are not affecting people as much as they are in the states - it was already a big problem when I left. I do very much agree that much watering down has gone on and it has affected both people and the effectiveness of the church. Couldn’t agree more regarding insufficient catichising. Posters will say that it’s up to the person to seek education. Well… It’s not happening! It has to be offerred.

Fran

FRAN, are you now a practicing Catholic.

You mention i the post “before I left”; and I find many of your post to at best bei on the edge of Catholic truths.

Oh! and I never found your reply to MY response on the other forum??? Maybe I just missed it?

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[clem456]

This quote can’t be clicked on:
=frangiuliano115;13466672]We got into this and I’m willing to learn.

This one can:

We got into this and I’m willing to learn.

The blue button will take the reader back to the original quote to be read in it’s entirety.

 

[PJM]

=clem456;]Good stuff!

Quote:
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION
“DOMINUS IESUS”
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
…
VI. THE CHURCH AND THE OTHER RELIGIONS
IN RELATION TO SALVATION

1. From what has been stated above, some points follow that are necessary for theological reflection as it explores the relationship of the Church and the other religions to salvation.

Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.78

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

1. With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.83 Theologians are seeking to understand this question more fully. Their work is to be encouraged, since it is certainly useful for understanding better God’s salvific plan and the ways in which it is accomplished. However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”84 which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men — which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour — it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.

FYI: Theologians HAVE made a determination

From our Catholic POST Vatican II Catechsim

CCC 1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[clem456]

God Bless you,

Patrick

God bless you too Patrick.

1. don’t know what you said, because I’m not going to wade through a 5000 word post to pull your words our of mine, because you don’t use the quote function properly.
2. I dunno, what should #2 be?

 

[guanophore]

 FOR ADRIFT AND GUANOPHORE

I am not reading your replies or answering them.

We got into this and I’m willing to learn.

That apparently did not last long…

It seems that you have a dislike for being held accountable for what you have posted, especially when it is in error.

You can each think what you will.

What we each think is really not the issue. The issue is a Catholic posting non–Catholic answers on CAF.

 The only thing I will say is that for Adrift to think HE knows more than a priest who has studied his vocation for years including basic  theology, moral theology, exegesis, philosophy, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the bible including history, psychology, pastoring, the Mass and other liturgies, etc.  is the height of self-righteousness.

And with that I bid you a good day.

Fran

It is not, Fran. Priests are not infallible, and also can make mistakes.

The seal of baptism is permanent, and since this is a doctrine of the faith, a priest who thinks otherwise is not accurate.

 

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13472957]Yes. Patrick. I don’t really know why this is difficult to understand. Maybe I’m just not in agreement with people who put the church above Chrsit. Maybe I’m just not explaining myself well.

I agree that just being a member of a church will not suffice for salvation. (although I was taught this as a girl - many years ago).

I agree that Christ founded just one Church A capital C, Church. OR His Body, of which we are members and He is the head. He is the vine, we are the branches.

I agree with your statement that N.T. salvation is through Christ. O.T. salvation was through faith, see Hebrews - you know your bible well enough to probably already know where I’m headed… It was through the Jews in the sense that He revealed Himself through them - okay.

I also agree with your last statement.

So we agree! So what is it we can’t agree on???

church = the bldg down the block
Church = The Body of Christ - His one and only Church.

Maybe the problem is that I separate the two churches. But I have to because not everyone in the church is a member of the Church! Which is exactly what you’re saying:
That it’s not enough to be called a catholic to be one and/or to attain salvation.

This apparently small nuance is actually not so small. Since by this, I’m able to allow, in my heart, more people into the Church than are most catholics - all this talk of EENS and all that. See?

Fran

Thank you

I don’t understand EENS:shrug:

It is in my opinion, an error to claim that Christianity in total is part of “One Body”. This could ONLY be true on the Rocky-condition of ALL having just one set of Faith beliefs.

It is the lack of this common faith [in total; not fragmented] that prohibits the kind of unity to see to persistently claim as a reality

Having a common Baptism and even a Believe in Christ as Savior is all good; BUT not having the same essential & necessary understanding of Christ; and salvation through Him; is not only problematic; it is a life changer.

The Catholic Faith conforms to what Jesus desired and demanded.

Protestantism is factually in competition with what Jesus Did, Does and Desires. It demands Jesus do it [salvation] their way; thus overriding His way.

So while we agree that Unity is desirable; there is no room for compromise. Truth has to remain truth. Amen

Patrick

 

[guanophore]

I also agree that the church is holy - even if all the people in it are not, for the reasons you state. I do believe the church is one with Christ. How could it be otherwise?

Here’s where I have a problem explaining myself:

Not everyone in the church is a part of the Church.

If you mean that not everyone sitting in a pew is part of the Body of Christ, I agree.

But the Apostles’ taught that Baptism is what unites us to the Church, so all who are validly baptized are part of the Church.

So for me, it’s more clear to say that the Church is the Body of Christ because I know for sure that everyone that is a part of is is more fervent, as you said. Or is a “real believer” as I like to say.

This part I can only agree with in part. Those who have embraced discipleship, yes, they will be fervent, but there are plenty of lukewarm and “dead” members of the Church. Jesus addresses them in the letters of Revelation, as does Paul in his epistles. There are weeds among the wheat. They are irreversibly sealed in baptism, but are not on the path of salvation. They bring “dead weight” to the Church.

I’d be willing to go through the discussion I had with the priest but it would take a bit. Don’t know if a chatterbox like me could narrow it down.

It sounds like you either misunderstood the priest, or he expressed it badly, or you are both mixed up.

Does this not make sense??

Fran

The part that does not make sense is this:

1. You have agreed that baptism is an idelible seal that cannot be undone
2. You have agreed that baptism unites a person with the Body of Christ (the Church)
3. You have agreed that all baptized persons can and should embrace the vows made at baptism, and become disciples but you seem to be saying that
4. Persons who fail to live out their baptism vows are no longer members of the Body?

I don't really know why this is difficult to understand.  .  Maybe I'm just not explaining myself well.

I agree that just being a member of a church will not suffice for salvation.

This becomes an important element, since you seem to be saying that you know there are members of the church who are not living up to their baptism. Yet you also say “there are people in the church that are not part of the church”? Perhaps you are referring to persons who are Catholic in name only?

If they are validly baptized, they are members of the Church.

not everyone in the church is a member of the Church!  Which is exactly what you're saying:

That it’s not enough to be called a catholic to be one and/or to attain salvation.

Here is where you sound very confused. Being baptized does not mean one will be saved (unless they die immediately). Being a member of the Body does not mean a person will be saved.

I agree it is not enought to be called CAtholic, or to be baptized. I don’t know what you mean by saying that not everyone in the church is a member of the church.

 

[clem456]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

IV. UNICITY AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH

1. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”.49 This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).50

Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity — will never be lacking.52

The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ… which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth’ (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57
…
On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.

 

[clem456]

1. From what has been stated above, some points follow that are necessary for theological reflection as it explores the relationship of the Church and the other religions to salvation.

Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.78

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

 

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13476208]Good evening Patrick,

There is a fundamental difference between us and we will never agree. The first thing I learned in fundamental theology is that the bible speaks to us individually. So that when it says YOU, it’s speaking to ME, it does not mean a church

Then you were either incorrectly instructed or misunderstood.

Christ uses in so may critical teachings that He is speaking to the Apostles [another name for THEE Church] directly and exclusively. It is gravely incorrect to bypass or gloss-over .this fact.

In His Body I do intend to include all who believe in Him. Precisely because He has only one Body. Are you trying to tell me that only Catholics are going to heaven?

No BUT: There will be far more Catholics than “christians”. Because of Sacramental graces and it seems TO ME [this point being a personal opinion] that in our day and age; with technology being what it is; and with the exposure to Christ true faith being disseminated as it is; that a non-culpable ignorance position becomes harder and harder to be credible and sufficient the "Oh Gosh! I didn’t know that I HAD TO be associated with thee Catholic Church in order to be saved:

****CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.****

So Jesus instituted a church, the catholic church. I guess He couldn’t figure out that one day it would split. We say that the Holy Spirit works in the church,Seems like a big mistake to me. And I think God doesn’t make mistakes

Certainly God Knew that “it” [singular by design and Will] would split…

What your choosing to ignore that “splitting” IS ABANDONMENT of God: the one unforgivable sin. Your position presumes in grave error that man has a right to tell God how He God must and will save them. That friend is heresy.

And NO, I don’t think ONLY Catholics will attain heaven. That said; Nevertheless the odds of Catholics attaining heaven ARE far greater than fr non-Catholic Christians…

[QOUTE]Do I mean by this that God wanted a split? Who can know. I certainly cannot know God’s mind, as it seems that you do. I do know that the split was for a reason and the church has been reforming ever since. You must admit that the church is different today than it was back in 1500, 1700, 1800 and even pre VAT II. So how do we account for that? had and taught:

One True God

Only One possible set of TRUE faith beliefs which it is beyond the pale; to assume that GOD would have waited over a 1,000 YEARS to make known what HAVE to be and can ONLY Be His One set of faith beliefs

ANY and ALL faith believes that do NOT fully align with what the CC teaches are heresy. They COMPETE with God’s own truth.

POPE Benedict XVI said this:.
quote: There CANNOT be your truth and MY truth or there would be NO truth."

You say that some are not going about salvation in God’s way. Well, what way would that be do you suppose? Is it not because they are basing their faith in Christ - the one who went to the cross and died for us all? What other way is there??

Let’s be clear!

Unless I specify other; what I’m sharing is NOT simply If beliefs are not FULLY MY personal opinion: IT IS THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH; IT IS GOD’S
FAITH ARTICULATED.

If any faith -beliefs no not fully conform to Catholic Teaching; they MUST be changed and brought into line with what Jesus Christ Himself, in 1st Person Singular taught, commands and mandates.

No where in the bible, NOT even one time has God indicated tollerance for competiting faith beliefs:

Mt. 7:21-29 Is this friend a concealed truth to you?

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven:** but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.** [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. [24] Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man** that built his house upon a roc**k, [25] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock
"YOU ARE PETER AND UPON YOU I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH singular: YOU PETER[meaning MY CHURCH] YOU GO and teach the world what I TAUGHT to YOU!] …[26] And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. [28] And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine. " Amen!

My friend, you’re positions are dangerously not CATHOLIC

May God help you correct your lack of right understanding,

Patrick