Shouldn’t the Pope and the CCC agree with each other?If in doubt with a pope, consult the catechism.
The issue is not about changing doctrine, it is about pastoral administration in assisting and ministering to people who made the wrong choices in former marriages, are remarried outside the Church, and are seeking restored communion.
Very difficult. You also have to look at the times of the late '60’s through 90’s, that misled alot of people into bad relationships that were not centered in God.
I am addressing an issue that is outside my ball park and it belongs with the pope and bishops to address and work on the complexities…
The other issue is to not allow couples to anull easily either…their marriage has the Cross and may need more time to work out.
St. Joan of Arc…About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.Pope Paul VI declared:
From 1997 revison of the original 1971 General Directory for Catechesis (CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY):I very much like what you posted here:
In preceding catecheses we showed how the Church has a spiritual nature: it is the body of Christ, built up by the Holy Spirit. When we refer to the Church, however, the mind immediately turns to our communities, our parishes, our dioceses, to the structures where we usually gather and, obviously, to the more institutional components and the figures who administer, who govern her. This is the most visible reality of the Church. We must ask ourselves, then: are these two different things or the one single Church? And, if it is one single Church, how should we understand the relationship between the visible reality and the spiritual?
…
the Church is us all, us! All baptized persons are the Church, Jesus’ Church.
…
2. In order to comprehend the relationship, in the Church, the relation between her visible reality and the spiritual realm, there is no other way than to look to Christ, whose body is constituted by the Church and who generates her, in an act of infinite love.
…
Christ is the model for the Church, because the Church is his body. He is the model for all Christians, for us all. When one looks to Christ, one does not err.
It’s not in people’s minds. The Monsignor, and the Pope, seem to be speaking of an inner change which must take place. Of letting Jesus into the door of the heart. The pope specifically talked about Revelation, Jesus knocking on the door with no doorknob.
There is nothing written. Maybe it’s just Vatican II and it takes longer to get here. People here are very resistant to change.
Well, maybe the way you mean it, is IS in their minds. I’ve always understood these things all along so no problem for me.
I wouldn’t say it’s development of doctrine, but maybe this ongoing revelation we speak of. The only doctrine that might be changed is the remarried question but that hasn’t even been decided officially yet, and still many labor over this possible change.
Maybe the church here is trying to get closer to the spirituality of our faith - less away from works and legalism. I get myself into trouble using the word legalism, but how else to explain? When one is following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law.
Keep Holy the Sabbath. Does it mean ONLY go to church? So if I go to Mass i’m good, no matter what else I do that day. But if I miss Mass I’m going stright to hell because I commited a mortal sin. This is the difference to me. This does not mean I think we shouldn’t go to Mass. Jesus spoke on this a lot: Following the precepts of man (the pharisees) you have made null lthe word of God. There are pharisees even today. Holding on to the law as if that’s what’ll save them and not Jesus’ sacrifice, they won’t let people in, as the Pope says. Some will post the weirdest concerns. Mortal sin everywhere. Invalidating the gravity of mortal sin – Questions that should be asked of Jesus and not of us – for the answers are varied; I’ve posted pp’s from the CCC and have gotten replies that contradict what I understand it to mean! So, yes, some kind of spirituality has to become important. Precisely because we might understand things differently - and God will judge us by that understanding. I just think we should be careful not to put legalism in the way of God, as an obstacle.
I mean, Fra’ Lorenzo is inundated with persons wanting to speak to him about these “changes”. Maybe these conversations with him wouldn’t be necessary if we leaned more on Jesus and less on the church?? (small c).
Maybe I’m not making myself be understood properly.
Fran
Vico,From 1997 revison of the original 1971 General Directory for Catechesis (CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY):
The work of revising the General Catechetical Directory undertaken by the Congregation for the Clergy, was conducted by a group of Bishops and experts in theology and catechesis. In the revision of the General Directory, its original inspiration and content were respected. Episcopal Conferences and several experts were consulted as were the principal catechetical institutes and centres.
…
Faith and conversion arise from the “heart”, that is, they arise from the depth of the human person and they involve all that he is. By meeting Jesus Christ and by adhering to him the human being sees all of his deepest aspirations completely fulfilled. He finds what he had always been seeking and he finds it superabundantly. (150) Faith responds to that “waiting”, (151) often unconscious and always limited in its knowledge of the truth about God, about man himself and about the destiny that awaits him. It is like pure water (152) which refreshes the journey of man, wandering in search of his home. Faith is a gift from God. It can only be born in the intimacy of Man’s heart as a fruit of that “grace [which] moves and assists him”, (153) and as a completely freeresponse to the promptings of the Holy Spirit who moves the heart and turns it toward God, and who “makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth”. (154) The Blessed Virgin Mary lived these dimensions of faith in the most perfect way. The Church “venerates in Mary the purest realization of faith”. (155)
- Faith involves a change of life, a “metanoia”, (148) that is a profound transformation of mind and heart; it causes the believer to live that conversion. (149) This transformation of life manifests itself at all levels of the Christian’s existence: in his interior life of adoration and acceptance of the divine will, in his action, participation in the mission of the Church, in his married and family life; in his professional life; in fulfilling economic and social responsibilities.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_17041998_directory-for-catechesis_en.html
I think the way the Jesus explained it, the Scribes Pharisees would follow the letter of the law (rules), but were not full of charity. Matthew 23:5 (“And all their works they do for to be seen of men.”).Vico,
HOW do you find this stuff? I wish I could.
I’m on another thread called Sin Confusion and Brendan 64 is just not understanding what I mean when I speak of grace as opposed to the Law.
I guess I could copy and paste the above, right? it explains perfectly what I mean.
Jesus did not mean for us to follow a set of rules. He wants a transformation of the person, so it’s almost not necessary to have rules. Is that so difficult to grasp? Many take this to mean that you don’t have to follow the rules and you could just go ahead and sin. The transformation keeps you from sinning –
I may not be able to make myself be understood very well, but I’m not giving up! I think it’s an important christian concept.
Thanks for all the helpful posts!
Fran
AMEN!I think the way the Jesus explained it, the Scribes Pharisees would follow the letter of the law (rules), but were not full of charity. Matthew 23:5 (“And all their works they do for to be seen of men.”).
Use Google to search and after the topic add site:www.vatican.va
I very much like what you posted here:
In preceding catecheses we showed how the Church has a spiritual nature: it is the body of Christ, built up by the Holy Spirit. When we refer to the Church, however, the mind immediately turns to our communities, our parishes, our dioceses, to the structures where we usually gather and, obviously, to the more institutional components and the figures who administer, who govern her. This is the most visible reality of the Church. We must ask ourselves, then: are these two different things or the one single Church? And, if it is one single Church, how should we understand the relationship between the visible reality and the spiritual?
…
Fran
I don’t think this quote is from you, but let me take a stab at it…
the answer to this question lies in the Incarnation.
Christ is a divine person who also has full human nature. In Christ, the divine and the temporal come together in one person.
Because Christ takes on flesh and is
1 born of a woman into time, space, and matter
2 lives and proclaims the Gospel in a walking, talking, breathing way
3 dies in a physical way
4 rises in a physical way
5 and gives a mission to specific human beings by breathing on them and touching them
…because of this Incarnational life of God, the Church has a real structure. By real we mean the Church is instituted in the human condition. The Church is both human and divine.
To be the Body of Christ means these are not separated but are united. The Church is not a gnostic and vague spiritual idea.
So yes, we can point to an institution and say
“There is the Church that Christ founded…”, it is not just “anywhere”.
just as John the Baptist pointed to Christ and said
behold the Lamb of God
I personally believe the Body of Christ is the “universal Church,” that is, all baptized, believing Christians. I believe the fullness of the Church resides in the RCC and Orthodox more or less - but I allow that Protestants who worship in authentic faith in Christ are, in an “imperfect” sense, effectively worshiping Christ (and receiving his grace) in their denominations.Pope Paul VI declared:
Okay. I don’t recognize the quote, but I don’t mind. It sounds like something the Pope might have said.I don’t think this quote is from you, but let me take a stab at it…
the answer to this question lies in the Incarnation.
Christ is a divine person who also has full human nature. In Christ, the divine and the temporal come together in one person.
Because Christ takes on flesh and is
1 born of a woman into time, space, and matter
2 lives and proclaims the Gospel in a walking, talking, breathing way
3 dies in a physical way
4 rises in a physical way
5 and gives a mission to specific human beings by breathing on them and touching them
…because of this Incarnational life of God, the Church has a real structure. By real we mean the Church is instituted in the human condition. The Church is both human and divine.
To be the Body of Christ means these are not separated but are united. The Church is not a gnostic and vague spiritual idea.
So yes, we can point to an institution and say
“There is the Church that Christ founded…”, it is not just “anywhere”.
just as John the Baptist pointed to Christ and said
If you’re meaning to say the “Church down in Rome and magisterium” is dead stones, no that’s not right.Okay. I don’t recognize the quote, but I don’t mind. It sounds like something the Pope might have said.
I agree with everything you say. I think that what I do is go a step farther and then misunderstandings abound.
CCC no. 169 says:
Salvation comes from God alone, but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not IN the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
So here’s my understanding and I believe it’s right because I checked. There are two churches - this creates much confusion.
There is the church: Those dead stones in a bldg we go to every Sunday or every day for Mass. This could also be the church down in Rome - or the magesterium, if you will.
Fran
Your first paragraph is correct. The Body of Christ is the universal Church, it is visible and made up of believers. Protestants are members of that Body if they are disciples of Christ. Read the CCC no. 1271.I personally believe the Body of Christ is the “universal Church,” that is, all baptized, believing Christians. I believe the fullness of the Church resides in the RCC and Orthodox more or less - but I allow that Protestants who worship in authentic faith in Christ are, in an “imperfect” sense, effectively worshiping Christ (and receiving his grace) in their denominations.
I honestly don’t know what the Catholic Church believes on this - I used to think it believed the Body of Christ was the universal Church - but now I think it may just be the RCC. (Though I also think I was right the first time - it’s the universal Church for us - I’m of two minds here.)
Complete unity, or communion, consists in being united to the Body of Christ, as established by Christ.Your first paragraph is correct. The Body of Christ is the universal Church, it is visible and made up of believers. Protestants are members of that Body if they are disciples of Christ. Read the CCC no. 1271.
Also, the bible does not distinguish between believers. Paul, Peter, and James and the other writers spoke to ALL gentiles. Gentiles are those who were not Jewish.
It’s not possible that only the RCC makes up the body of Christ. Think of it…
Fran
The answer is simple: YES.If you’re meaning to say the “Church down in Rome and magisterium” is dead stones, no that’s not right.
Is there a visible and real institution or not? Christ, who is the author of salvation, created a real institution in real time and space.
Obviously, it is not just a building full of bureaucrats, but it has buildings, and bank accounts, and resources for ministry. Etc…it is not just a spiritual idea. The Church is Christ’s body, and so is inseparable from him. (There are many ways of speaking about the mystery of the Church. “Mother” is one of them.)
I agree. I get into trouble many times.Complete unity, or communion, consists in being united to the Body of Christ, as established by Christ.
All humanity is an heir to that unity and shares in it, to the degree we are united with it. But, there are not two bodies, there is only one.
Union with the body does not consist merely in explicit profession of creeds and doctrines, although if we know about them and reject them we have a problem.
This is a huge, complex, and nuanced topic that is rife with misunderstandings between people. Lumen Gentium addresses all this. There is also a huge ream of threads on CA that discuss this over the years.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Not all baptized Catholics are saved.I agree. I get into trouble many times.
People in these here parts have said that only catholics are saved. Then I direct them to the CCC or the bible - of all books! - and they still insist.
So I’m going to keep insisting. I’ve also spoken to different priests about this and it seems to me that EENS is a very outdated idea.
That means that more than half the poplulation of earth has no chance of ever seeing God! What was John 3:16 all about anyway –
Fran
Paperwork abounds! But I’m almost done –Not all baptized Catholics are saved.
Not only Catholics are saved.
All the saved are Catholic.
These are all true. (of course, there is much much more to be said and I have to work)
I think you have it backwards, Fran. The universal Church, the mystical Body of Christ that is made up of believers is INVISIBLE. We cannot visibly identify many who are members of it, especially since some of them are not Christian.Your first paragraph is correct. The Body of Christ is the universal Church, it is visible and made up of believers. Protestants are members of that Body if they are disciples of Christ. Read the CCC no. 1271.
Also, the bible does not distinguish between believers. Paul, Peter, and James and the other writers spoke to ALL gentiles. Gentiles are those who were not Jewish.
It’s not possible that only the RCC makes up the body of Christ. Think of it…
Fran
Are the kids not reading the Catechism?:The answer is simple: YES.
I hope you understand the difference between the stones.
Kids get taught this at catechism - they get taught about the LIVING STONES as opposed to the dead stones of a bldg NOT the magesterium down in Rome. They don’t know about the magesterium! They know about the Pope, Bishops and Priests and Deacons.
Hope you understand about the dead stones – WE are the living stones.
IF one is NOT christian, HOW is he a member of the mystical Body of Christ???I think you have it backwards, Fran. The universal Church, the mystical Body of Christ that is made up of believers is INVISIBLE. We cannot visibly identify many who are members of it, especially since some of them are not Christian.
Vico,Are the kids not reading the Catechism?:
The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.