Is the Roman Catholic Church and the body of Christ one and the same?

[Vico]

IF one is NOT christian, HOW is he a member of the mystical Body of Christ???

That is an easy one. The whole Christ includes Christ and the saints. The saints are both living and faithfully departed. Those saints are those justified that were baptized by water, blood, or desire, and hopefully includes unbaptized infants.1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

One redemption for all the just that ever lived:

“He entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12). “It is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb 10:10).

 

[frangiuliano115]

That is an easy one. The whole Christ includes Christ and the saints. The saints are both living and faithfully departed. Those saints are those justified that were baptized by water, blood, or desire, and hopefully includes unbaptized infants.1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

One redemption for all the just that ever lived:

“He entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12). “It is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb 10:10).

Very good.

I understood not christian to mean atheists who do not believe in God.

Of all people, certainly I will not exclude anyone who searches for God or finds Him in their way, to be outside of the Church (capital C).

Fran
p.s. infants are not at the age of reason, but have O.S. But God is merciful and I trust in Him.

 

[clem456]

I always try to keep in mind that:

1. while God has given us a simple (yet difficult) path to know him and come to union with him in the Body of Christ…
2. It is the mystical body of Christ. God is mysterious. There is a hidden-ness in God. We don’t really have full answers or adequate expression for some of these realities.

As a baptized Catholic, I have a path before me.
It is a mystery (to me, not to God) how others might be saved.

It’s good to appreciate mystery because

when you find the God you think you understand, you’ve probably built yourself an idol

When we use mystery, we don’t mean unknowable, but not fully knowable in his essence and will.
Sacramentum and mysterion are words used for the same realities, in fact mysterion preceded sacramentum in usage.

 

[Art321]

Vico,

HOW do you find this stuff? I wish I could.

I’m on another thread called Sin Confusion and Brendan 64 is just not understanding what I mean when I speak of grace as opposed to the Law.

I guess I could copy and paste the above, right? it explains perfectly what I mean.

Jesus did not mean for us to follow a set of rules. He wants a transformation of the person, so it’s almost not necessary to have rules. Is that so difficult to grasp? Many take this to mean that you don’t have to follow the rules and you could just go ahead and sin. The transformation keeps you from sinning –

I may not be able to make myself be understood very well, but I’m not giving up! I think it’s an important christian concept.

Thanks for all the helpful posts!

Fran

Going through this whole thread, it seems I just wanted to address this post the most. From my limited understanding as I am still in the process of studying the Faith (there is enough material that it would take years to be properly catechized), the Law itself is a great good in that when it is applied correctly, it allows us to live in an abundance of grace with God knowing His authentic everlasting Love.

Now the reason that Christ admonished the pharisees was not because they were upholding the Law but rather because of their interpretation of it. There was no mercy, compassion, and kindness when they proclaimed it. So, how do we keep ourselves from making that same but terrible mistake?? I suppose that answer would be to proclaim the Law with mercy. I believe that when we do this we begin to live both the letter and the spirit of the Law; because ultimately the Law reveals the Truth to all of God’s creation.

Here is what I mean: our ultimate destiny in this life is to know and love God through his Word, living the life in Truth and Love. We always start this journey by doing as Christ did… showing compassion toward everyone regardless of their intentions. Many times all we can do is simply pray for them. That is showing mercy, but when someone is in the wrong we must always proclaim the Truth (Law) to the best of our ability to correct them. We do so because we want everyone to live abundantly in the Truth as that is the rock Jesus refers to in the Gospels, not the sand. I genuinely believe this is how we love and show God’s authentic Love here on earth.

Of course, it is easier said than done and it is always a work in progress. Many people simply will call you everything in the book when we show mercy and truth to them. As I said earlier, simply prayer is all we can do sometimes.

 

[Art321]

In regards to the question of the thread, I do believe the visible Church of Christ subsists in the Bishops, Priests, Laity in communion with the Bishop of Rome. This is the Catholic Church in which the fullness of Truth is found. In regards to our Eastern Brothers and Sisters, I also believe that they are in some mystical way connected to the Church but not in full communion. This would mean that they are in the Church, yet not completely as they lack Peter. Confusing but it makes sense I suppose.

It gets tricky with protestants, no? As they profess themselves to be Christians, then they too are connected to the Church through an imperfect union. It must be stated though that they are not within the visible Church. I do hope this changes, and do think this will change with time.

 

[friardchips]

No. As I understand the expression, “This Church [established by Christ] … subsists in the Catholic Church,” it means that the Catholic Church is the truest and most complete continuation of the Church established by Christ, preserving the entire apostolic faith without error and retaining all the supernatural gifts that Christ wanted his Church to have, such as the office of bishop and apostolic succession thereof, the office of pope, and all seven sacraments. Other Churches may also be continuations of the Church established by Christ but they are defective continuations, defective in some aspect of faith and/or gifts. For instance, the Orthodox Churches are defective continuations of the Church established by Christ because they have failed to retain the gift of the office of pope.

Agreed. Any ‘Catholic’ Church that is in full communion with Rome is an established “sister Church”.

As to whether the Roman Catholic Church is not the most fully established, well, we haven’t ever broken with ourselves! The true line of succession has always continued.

If any Church has left full communion then they are deficient in that way and the changes they themselves have made are obsolete, but when they come back to full communion, then all is good.

 

[guanophore]

IF one is NOT christian, HOW is he a member of the mystical Body of Christ???

This is why it is a mystery! We believe that OT saints are included in His One Body, and Paul implies that Pagans who follow what revelation is given to them and act according to their conscience can be saved. There may be those who belong visibly to other religions, but are mystically joined to His One Body. It is not for us to judge.

All we know for sure is that no one can be saved except by Jesus, so somehow, all those He chooses to save, He incorporates somehow into His mystical body. He is the Head of His Church, His Bride, so all those who are joined to Him as Head are members of the Church, whether they are visibly so, or not.

Not only do kids not read the CCC, we’re just starting to use the bible! We like to say we’ve always used it, but not really. But that’s a long post, if you really want to know, I’m willing. I’ve ALWAYS used the bible in my groups. From the second grade.

I’d say, also, that most adults don’t read the CCC or even know what it is or that it even exists.

This is a sad fact.

Gosh I miss it. Life is life.

Fran

I am sure that God has plans to put your passionate faith to work in some special way.

By the way, this last citation is what I am referencing when I tell you how concerning it is for a Catholic Catechist to devalue the disciplines of the Church.

The Magisterium of the Church

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The disciplines such as fasting before communion are to be received “with docility” and obedience, as coming from Christ Himself. Sometimes they may not make sense to us, or we disagree with them, but God will sanctify us through obedience to them anyway.

 

[guanophore]

It gets tricky with protestants, no? As they profess themselves to be Christians, then they too are connected to the Church through an imperfect union. It must be stated though that they are not within the visible Church. I do hope this changes, and do think this will change with time.

I do not think this can change (Protestants becoming part of the visible church) because there are heretical views embraced that cannot be affirmed as part of the teaching of the Apostles.

Let us all pray for unity in His One Body, that we may all be One, as He and the Father are one.

 

[friardchips]

This is why it is a mystery! We believe that OT saints are included in His One Body, and Paul implies that Pagans who follow what revelation is given to them and act according to their conscience can be saved. There may be those who belong visibly to other religions, but are mystically joined to His One Body. It is not for us to judge.

All we know for sure is that no one can be saved except by Jesus, so somehow, all those He chooses to save, He incorporates somehow into His mystical body. He is the Head of His Church, His Bride, so all those who are joined to Him as Head are members of the Church, whether they are visibly so, or not.

…

The Magisterium of the Church

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The disciplines such as fasting before communion are to be received “with docility” and obedience, as coming from Christ Himself. Sometimes they may not make sense to us, or we disagree with them, but God will sanctify us through obedience to them anyway.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I always try to keep in mind that:

1. while God has given us a simple (yet difficult) path to know him and come to union with him in the Body of Christ…
2. It is the mystical body of Christ. God is mysterious. There is a hidden-ness in God. We don’t really have full answers or adequate expression for some of these realities.

As a baptized Catholic, I have a path before me.
It is a mystery (to me, not to God) how others might be saved.

It’s good to appreciate mystery because

When we use mystery, we don’t mean unknowable, but not fully knowable in his essence and will.
Sacramentum and mysterion are words used for the same realities, in fact mysterion preceded sacramentum in usage.

A mystery is something that could be understood to some extent but not fully.

As far as knowing God; sometimes it’ll say (bible ) that god is not knowable. Jesus said we could know God if we know Him. Or “seen” which is the same. So God is knowable but only insofar as He’s been revealed to us by Jesus.

Re having the right expressions=how many times have I said that it’s really difficult to speak of spiritual things using words.

Did you ever see that movie Contact with Jodie Foster? She discovers signals from another planet. She gets sent up to that planet through a wormhole because it’s so far away. She a scientist. She has to send a report back home of what she sees. When she gets out of the wormhole there’s a tight shot of her staring into space, utterly amazed at what she’s looking at. With wide eyes, she says: They Should Have Sent A Poet.

It’s one of the most beautiful lines in any movie - perfectly expresses the moment and the inadequacy of words.

Same for God.

 

[Art321]

Did you ever see that movie Contact with Jodie Foster? She discovers signals from another planet. She gets sent up to that planet through a wormhole because it’s so far away. She a scientist. She has to send a report back home of what she sees. When she gets out of the wormhole there’s a tight shot of her staring into space, utterly amazed at what she’s looking at. With wide eyes, she says: They Should Have Sent A Poet.

It’s one of the most beautiful lines in any movie - perfectly expresses the moment and the inadequacy of words.

Same for God.

I do agree with you fully on this. God Himself is a being that will never truly be grasped and understood! He is perfect in every sense of the word and then words don’t do it justice to proclaim His Glory. He is not the highest being but rather act of being itself! He is Love, Beauty, Justice, Mercy, Goodness, Truth, Joy, Mystery, and so much more!!

Which is why we must also proclaim to Him and His Word to the ends of the earth! Many will hate the Truth, but I hope they will repent and believe. Words alone can’t describe how much God Himself wants this to happen. In the end, we decide because Authentic Love requires it to be chosen freely… Let us pray for the world!

 

[Art321]

I do not think this can change (Protestants becoming part of the visible church) because there are heretical views embraced that cannot be affirmed as part of the teaching of the Apostles.

Let us all pray for unity in His One Body, that we may all be One, as He and the Father are one.

What I meant is for all protestants to come back to the Catholic Church! For all of them to repent and proclaim the entirety of the Holy Faith! I do hope this happens as I was looking at the numbers that there are more protestants in the world than Orthodox Christians… interesting fact…

 

[Seekerjn316]

What I meant is for all protestants to come back to the Catholic Church! For all of them to repent and proclaim the entirety of the Holy Faith! I do hope this happens as I was looking at the numbers that there are more protestants in the world than Orthodox Christians… interesting fact…

How is it possible to “come back” to an organization one never was a part of?

How would “repentance” help? Repentance also has an “Im sorry” as well as an “about face and go the other way”…There is NO regret for not being Catholic…so how can one “repent” of that?

 

[Art321]

How is it possible to “come back” to an organization one never was a part of?

How would “repentance” help? Repentance also has an “Im sorry” as well as an “about face and go the other way”…There is NO regret for not being Catholic…so how can one “repent” of that?

Yes, you make valid claims. Perhaps the word repent was not the correct word for me to use. Of course all people should repent of all sins and come to God, but that is not the topic at hand. Right. What I meant is that I do hope that all people who claim to be protestant to find their way back to the Catholic Church.

Though they officially never left, it was because of their ancestors that they were left without shepherds to guide them against the heresies of the world as well as lacking parts of the Faith.

 

[Vico]

Very good.

I understood not christian to mean atheists who do not believe in God.

Of all people, certainly I will not exclude anyone who searches for God or finds Him in their way, to be outside of the Church (capital C).

Fran
p.s. infants are not at the age of reason, but have O.S. But God is merciful and I trust in Him.

Even an atheist that listens to and obeys conscience, which is “the aboriginal Vicar of Christ”, may be in the category of “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.” CCC 1260.

 

[Wannano]

Yes, you make valid claims. Perhaps the word repent was not the correct word for me to use. Of course all people should repent of all sins and come to God, but that is not the topic at hand. Right. What I meant is that I do hope that all people who claim to be protestant to find their way back to the Catholic Church.

Though they officially never left, it was because of their ancestors that they were left without shepherds to guide them against the heresies of the world as well as lacking parts of the Faith.

Maybe ALL people repenting and coming back to God should be the topic at hand if we desire to all be one.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land”. 2 Chhronicles7:14.

 

[Art321]

Even an atheist that listens to and obeys conscience, which is “the aboriginal Vicar of Christ”, may be in the category of “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.” CCC 1260.

Anything is possible with God! He can work wonders that even we could not possibly fathom or comprehend! Yet even they are saved as you say through the Catholic Church by some unknown grace that hasn’t been revealed by us.

 

[Art321]

Maybe ALL people repenting and coming back to God should be the topic at hand if we desire to all be one.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land”. 2 Chhronicles7:14.

I do believe that this would be an important step towards the right direction without a doubt and pray all people repent of their sins and disordered lifestyles. Yet discussion would have to continue to take place in my opinion.

Also welcome! I hope CAF is a warm place for you!

 

[Wannano]

I do believe that this would be an important step towards the right direction without a doubt and pray all people repent of their sins and disordered lifestyles. Yet discussion would have to continue to take place in my opinion.

Also welcome! I hope CAF is a warm place for you!

No doubt about it and thank you!

 

[clem456]

Even an atheist that listens to and obeys conscience, which is “the aboriginal Vicar of Christ”, may be in the category of “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.” CCC 1260.

What do you mean by “atheist”? If you mean one who has made a choice not to believe in God then he is not ignorant.