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M-Dent
Guest
Sure it is. It should never be considered inappropriate to desire Truth.
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Mark_Robert
Guest
Christ’s return is eminent to me insofar as my life will come to an end someday. My death is like the second coming of Christ when I’ll see Him face to face. That’s the second coming I prepare for in this life. As far as the final capitulation of all things, only the Father knows the day and the hour.
J
JMJ_Theresa
Guest
I don’t have my Bible handy, but isn’t the last prayer in the entire Bible, “Come Lord Jesus!”I try not to focus on the chastisements that will precede the glorious day, but all the healing and reunions that will occur. We will no longer be separated from our Protestant brothers. No one will be ill. No more death.
And best of all, Jesus here among us for everyone. A perpetual adoration for all of us.
Work will no longer be toil but a joy!
No more worry. no more sin. no more temptation. Our wills totally united to God.
I trust that Jesus will return at the perfect time. I know that when I pray for his return–he is applying that prayer to some missionary, or some soul–whatever is needed to hasten the day when the conditions are met.
I imagine I will die before His coming–even that I might die in the chastisements if the time is near. Oh, but how wonderful it will be to live in Eden again.
That anticipation should keep us on readiness to keep our lamps lit.
L
LukeQ
Guest
Hi Therese,
Can you confirm what you understand as the 2nd Coming of Christ?
I ask this question in light of Catholic Church teaching that Christ’s 2nd Coming, the Final Judgement and the End of the World will occur at the same time, and that time is only known by God the Father.
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I focus on my pending Particular Judgement though as Jesus Christ preached on the Final Judgement, it is natural to have an interest and belief in it according to the Doctrines of the Catholic Church.
The Church Fathers and the Doctors of the Church would make facinating reading on the Final Judgement. I would then go to approved apparitions and stay clear of unapproved or condemned apparitions.
The Gospel of St Matthew Ch24 is great reading as a start, particularly v4 - 6. v14 states that one of the conditions is that the Gospel must be preached first to all nations. We are not there yet.
Read Matthew 24 then seek the Church’s offical interpretation. It’s a good start.
Luke
Can you confirm what you understand as the 2nd Coming of Christ?
I ask this question in light of Catholic Church teaching that Christ’s 2nd Coming, the Final Judgement and the End of the World will occur at the same time, and that time is only known by God the Father.
=======
I focus on my pending Particular Judgement though as Jesus Christ preached on the Final Judgement, it is natural to have an interest and belief in it according to the Doctrines of the Catholic Church.
The Church Fathers and the Doctors of the Church would make facinating reading on the Final Judgement. I would then go to approved apparitions and stay clear of unapproved or condemned apparitions.
The Gospel of St Matthew Ch24 is great reading as a start, particularly v4 - 6. v14 states that one of the conditions is that the Gospel must be preached first to all nations. We are not there yet.
Read Matthew 24 then seek the Church’s offical interpretation. It’s a good start.
Luke
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4HisChurch
Guest
I heard a priest on EWTN the other day. He said, "People ask me, ‘Father, is it near the end of the world? When will the end of the world happen?’
“I tell them, that’s a management question. I’m in sales. And besides, Jesus already told us that question won’t be on the final exam.” :nope:
I thought this was a great answer! :clapping:
“I tell them, that’s a management question. I’m in sales. And besides, Jesus already told us that question won’t be on the final exam.” :nope:
I thought this was a great answer! :clapping:
L
LilyM
Guest
Hmm, at least he could’ve said ‘customer service’ instead of sales
Apart from that, it’s the absolutely correct answer.
L
LukeQ
Guest
4HisChurch - I think you have found the Catholic Answers Quote of the Week!!!
Well Done and I totally agree.
Luke
Well Done and I totally agree.
Luke
A
Anonymous_1
Guest
I pray for conversion of our hearts and our world…so many are being led astray, and as for me, Im still not anywhere near what I should be. I fear His judgement because as St. John the Evangelist says, His love has not been perfected in me.
I do believe we live in very troubled times. I think there is something to be said, His comming is nearer now then when we first believed. Let us focus our energies then on following Jesus that when He comes we will need not be afraid for we will be like Him.
Precious Jesus,
Save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of thy Dvine Mercy.
Amen.
I do believe we live in very troubled times. I think there is something to be said, His comming is nearer now then when we first believed. Let us focus our energies then on following Jesus that when He comes we will need not be afraid for we will be like Him.
Precious Jesus,
Save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of thy Dvine Mercy.
Amen.
J
JMJ_Theresa
Guest
Hmm, I’m not sure what you are reading in my post to infer that I’m embracing any heresy. I am in total conformity with the Church’s teaching on the end times. If it is the word chastisement, the church teaches that preceding the 2nd coming of Jesus, there will be persecutions and wars. This is what I am referring to. I’m sorry if I’ve worried you. When I said that I pray for the second coming, I was trying to convey that it is my logical belief that God applies those prayers to open hearts and enable missionaries to spread the word of God. The conditions I was speaking of was the spread of the Gospels to all nations.
I don’t read private revelation that is prophetic as I don’t consider prophecy as a reliable predictor of the future. It is usually so vague and symbolic as to be useless for that purpose. I completely trust the Church’s teaching. Perhaps you could highlight your concerns more specifically?
L
LukeQ
Guest
Hi Therese,
I was definately not implying you were embracing any herasy and apologise for any discomfort you may feel. I understand that you are in union with the Church and its teachings - I just was not sure on what you had written.
From your original post, I note:
I agree with you as regards the symbolic nature of prophecy and can well understand a desire to avoid it which can and has led many people astray and away from the Church.
God bless,
Luke
I was definately not implying you were embracing any herasy and apologise for any discomfort you may feel. I understand that you are in union with the Church and its teachings - I just was not sure on what you had written.
From your original post, I note:
I was not sure whether from your post that Jesus was with us in Heaven or on Earth during/after His 2nd Coming. From my understanding of Church Teaching, this experience of the Faithful you refer to is more aptly to occur in Heaven, following the 2nd Coming / Final Judgement and the end of the World.
I agree with you as regards the symbolic nature of prophecy and can well understand a desire to avoid it which can and has led many people astray and away from the Church.
God bless,
Luke
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batteddy
Guest
“No more so”!!! Even if it doesnt happen for 5000 more years…it is obviously closer than ever simply because more time has passed!! Every second we get closer…
Is it close? Yes. Jesus told us so. But what does “close” mean? The universe is 13 billion years old. It could come in a million years and that would be close by comparison. Humanity is 300,000 years old…10,000 years would be close by comparison. But since the death of Christ we have been in the Last Age of history before the End. How long this latter age will last, no one knows, but these past 2000 years have been the last age…in the grand scheme of things only a little rest in the grand symphony before the final movement.
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LilyM
Guest
batteddy said:
I didn’t literally mean ‘no more so’ - but as you say, in terms of the age of the world, and expected future remaining before the world was destroyed ‘naturally’ (eg by the Sun dying or exploding), 2000 years is barely significant.
B
blessedstar
Guest
I have wondered about that and then a thought came to me, when Pope John Paul II died every nation in the world saw on TV the Pope’s finals days, death and funeral. The beauty of his life and the the Eucharistic celebration was beamed all around the world. I think this was the most beautiful preaching of the Gospel throughout all of the nations.
Non-Catholics even said to me ‘I am sorry about your Pope he was a good man’ with real sincerity and love.
Just a thought, perhaps the preaching to all nations has come and we missed it because it was so gentle and beautiful.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
The Gospels tell us that every Christian should live every day as if Christ were coming tonight. so speculation on the exact date and place is futile.
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blessedstar
Guest
Yes of course, you are right. Jesus also tells us the signs to look for for His final coming though Jesus is coming all the time in many ways to His people, but in respect of the final coming, He is very specific in the understanding of the end days as in the Gospel of Matthew which is one of the Gospels of Sacred Scripture which you rightly say we should live by in the prayer of our lives. In this passage Jesus tells us to look for these signs and recognise them so that we will not be deceived and will endure in Him by His grace.
Therefore I think it is relevant we meditate upon them and discuss them as the Revelation to John says:
’Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near’
Regardless of whether Jesus will come as Just Judge and the end of the world by Divine action within our lifetimes it is meritous to understand, meditate and discuss the coming of the Lord by His grace if not for the good of our generation but for those that may still yet be born.
L
LukeQ
Guest
blessedstar - While JP2’s death was transmitted around the world on TV and that it was a subtle and beautiful way of proclaiming to the World the Good News, I doubt whether the majority of China’s 1.3 BIllion people knew of it given their limited acess to TV, let alone uncensored reports on the Catholic Church which has no diplomatic ties to China and operates underground. Also, it is a crime to preach the Gospel in many Islamic states.
It would be interesting to know authoritative estimates of the many millions of people who have not yet heard of Jesus Christ. I believe we still have quite a way to go so on this criteria alone as given to us in Matthew’s Gospel the 2nd Coming is a way off yet.
Insidently - there was an article on Zenit News:
Beijing Confirms Contact With Vatican:
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=87088
Luke
It would be interesting to know authoritative estimates of the many millions of people who have not yet heard of Jesus Christ. I believe we still have quite a way to go so on this criteria alone as given to us in Matthew’s Gospel the 2nd Coming is a way off yet.
Insidently - there was an article on Zenit News:
Beijing Confirms Contact With Vatican:
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=87088
Luke
B
blessedstar
Guest
Hi Luke, yes you’re right. Am I right in thinking the Vatican are about to forge diplomatic relations with China? I seem to remember reading somewhere that that was going to take place. Anyone else read or know of that happening?
Another thing I am thinking is what are we to understand by ‘preached throughout the world’ does that mean every single person must know of Jesus or does it mean that every nation must have the Eucharistic celebration within it, because if that is the case then that certainly has been fulfilled. I only ask because there are people in very remote places that may never know the word of God, will Jesus wait until every person has heard His word? I don’t think He will, but then again, this is just what people think.
The preaching of the Gospel is not therefore necessarily the preaching of the Gospel to every individual person. Rather it could be that the Gospel has been spread and lived out in each country and Mass is said in every country even if it is done ‘underground’ and in secret.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Dear TOP,
I have seen many signs.
The first really convincing one I actually saw in 2001.
It was a vision that showed, more or less, a “feasibility argument” for how the kingdom is to be knitted together. This “argument” was actually a visual effect but it showed me, in essence, that each person carries a seed of divinity and truth, and the “weaving” of it together is what builds the kingdom.
When one reads the scripture very carefully, one notices something important the Christians seem to presuppose (and could possibly be the origins of the “rapture” teaching) and that is, nowhere does Christ say that the the second coming will happen simultaneously to all believers.
Scripture says not to believe someone if they point and say, “look there He is” because each person will know without question. So I think a lot of people have this image of some giant hologram of Christ coming from a storm cloud or something, but I don’t see it that way at all. It is something that I can barely describe, but I can tell you with confidence that I “recognized” my personal entry into the kingdom about mid-December. I cannot say, “look here is how it is” because it is a different experience, and at a different time for each person.
We tend to think that we will believe things when we see them, and so if a giant Christ came strolling through the city then everybody would believe it. I think faith works the opposite way; it is the evidence of things we do not see. Therefore, when Christ comes to us in faith there will not need to be a sign that can be explained to others because each person is at their own place.
Therefore, I see that the second coming of Christ has actually been going on forever, and manifests to each person (the lucky ones while they are still alive) in different ways. When one studies the scriptures about how things will be in the kingdom, one finds that these things can be matters of the heart and do not require the world around us to be perfect.
These are things I’ve pondered for years and recently become convinced of and I’m certain have only expressed clumsily as there are so few people who are willing and able to have a discussion at this level. My faith is still weak, but I am different inside and that is beginning to show itself on the outside – as people react to me I can see them mirror good things instead of bad things like they used to. If one does not think my “construct” is valid, keep in mind its explanation is still in progress as it has been forever as we try to uncover what others experience and gain spiritual insight thereby. Also consider there are a lot of things to reconcile.
In this way (lose the “simultaneity” image which is not Biblical – or as far as I know not explicity taught anywhere) I can reconcile many of Christ’s teachings including “do not believe a person who say’s ‘look there he is’” and that these things will come to pass before our generation passes away. Well, if each person if brought into the kingdom at a designated time, why can’t some still be alive and some dead? Two people working side by side – one is in the kingdom and the other still has a great deal of faithlessness and anxiety. It isn’t about people suddenly disappearing from behind the wheel of a car; it’s about people driving a car suddenly coming into the realization in faith that everything is all right and that Jesus did come for us, and that God’s law really is written on our hearts, and that there is a tremendous peace left to experience, and all sorts of other wonderful things.
In short, TOP, I believe you and agree with your sightings. The fact that others don’t see it should not be a particular problem, as if you are anywhere near what it sounds like to me from your writing, your faith is such that you know things are “under control.” Do you have an incredible feeling of peace – or are you more like motivated so much that it’s hard to enjoy the peace?
Alan
I have seen many signs.
The first really convincing one I actually saw in 2001.
It was a vision that showed, more or less, a “feasibility argument” for how the kingdom is to be knitted together. This “argument” was actually a visual effect but it showed me, in essence, that each person carries a seed of divinity and truth, and the “weaving” of it together is what builds the kingdom.
When one reads the scripture very carefully, one notices something important the Christians seem to presuppose (and could possibly be the origins of the “rapture” teaching) and that is, nowhere does Christ say that the the second coming will happen simultaneously to all believers.
Scripture says not to believe someone if they point and say, “look there He is” because each person will know without question. So I think a lot of people have this image of some giant hologram of Christ coming from a storm cloud or something, but I don’t see it that way at all. It is something that I can barely describe, but I can tell you with confidence that I “recognized” my personal entry into the kingdom about mid-December. I cannot say, “look here is how it is” because it is a different experience, and at a different time for each person.
We tend to think that we will believe things when we see them, and so if a giant Christ came strolling through the city then everybody would believe it. I think faith works the opposite way; it is the evidence of things we do not see. Therefore, when Christ comes to us in faith there will not need to be a sign that can be explained to others because each person is at their own place.
Therefore, I see that the second coming of Christ has actually been going on forever, and manifests to each person (the lucky ones while they are still alive) in different ways. When one studies the scriptures about how things will be in the kingdom, one finds that these things can be matters of the heart and do not require the world around us to be perfect.
These are things I’ve pondered for years and recently become convinced of and I’m certain have only expressed clumsily as there are so few people who are willing and able to have a discussion at this level. My faith is still weak, but I am different inside and that is beginning to show itself on the outside – as people react to me I can see them mirror good things instead of bad things like they used to. If one does not think my “construct” is valid, keep in mind its explanation is still in progress as it has been forever as we try to uncover what others experience and gain spiritual insight thereby. Also consider there are a lot of things to reconcile.
In this way (lose the “simultaneity” image which is not Biblical – or as far as I know not explicity taught anywhere) I can reconcile many of Christ’s teachings including “do not believe a person who say’s ‘look there he is’” and that these things will come to pass before our generation passes away. Well, if each person if brought into the kingdom at a designated time, why can’t some still be alive and some dead? Two people working side by side – one is in the kingdom and the other still has a great deal of faithlessness and anxiety. It isn’t about people suddenly disappearing from behind the wheel of a car; it’s about people driving a car suddenly coming into the realization in faith that everything is all right and that Jesus did come for us, and that God’s law really is written on our hearts, and that there is a tremendous peace left to experience, and all sorts of other wonderful things.
In short, TOP, I believe you and agree with your sightings. The fact that others don’t see it should not be a particular problem, as if you are anywhere near what it sounds like to me from your writing, your faith is such that you know things are “under control.” Do you have an incredible feeling of peace – or are you more like motivated so much that it’s hard to enjoy the peace?
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
One more thing to emphasize, especially when one considers that “these things must happen” before other things.
Things happen that predispose the second coming at different places and different times. God works outside of time, so if the gospels are preached to all the nations “before” the second coming can occur, then I take it God has fulfilled this requirement already by His will – in terms of clocks like we use here on earth.
For those scientific among us, recognize that Einstein showed that simultaneity itself is relative. From that, I recognize that the order of events must by consequence be relative. God is absolute, so He is not constricted by the notions of “before” and “after” that we are. Here’s evidence, Christ died to save His mother (among others) from original sin, but in her case the earthly manifestation occurred at her conception – though the act through which it was done didn’t happen until later. Again, the worldly calendar cannot deal with this but as God told us, we humans have a different notion of the meaning of a “day” or “a thousand years” than God has.
If God can work on a timetable like that, then I think he can simply “implement” a plan to see the gospel taught among all nations – like the yeast through the dough – and go ahead and start bringing souls into the kingdom without having to wait until humans have confirmed in their history book that we’ve made it through the checklist of signs. It’s not about human action any more; it’s about realizing the gift Christ gave us of His life. In my view that can happen any time as soon as a human being is willing to accept it, at the discernment of the Holy Spirit.
Alan
Things happen that predispose the second coming at different places and different times. God works outside of time, so if the gospels are preached to all the nations “before” the second coming can occur, then I take it God has fulfilled this requirement already by His will – in terms of clocks like we use here on earth.
For those scientific among us, recognize that Einstein showed that simultaneity itself is relative. From that, I recognize that the order of events must by consequence be relative. God is absolute, so He is not constricted by the notions of “before” and “after” that we are. Here’s evidence, Christ died to save His mother (among others) from original sin, but in her case the earthly manifestation occurred at her conception – though the act through which it was done didn’t happen until later. Again, the worldly calendar cannot deal with this but as God told us, we humans have a different notion of the meaning of a “day” or “a thousand years” than God has.
If God can work on a timetable like that, then I think he can simply “implement” a plan to see the gospel taught among all nations – like the yeast through the dough – and go ahead and start bringing souls into the kingdom without having to wait until humans have confirmed in their history book that we’ve made it through the checklist of signs. It’s not about human action any more; it’s about realizing the gift Christ gave us of His life. In my view that can happen any time as soon as a human being is willing to accept it, at the discernment of the Holy Spirit.
Alan
J
JMJ_Theresa
Guest
At the ascension of Jesus, it is very clear that Jesus will return in the same manner that he ascended. I do not believe it is possible for a gradual second coming.
However, the Church is clear in its teaching that we are all ready in the Kingdom of God, working for the fullness of the Kingdom.
However, the Church is clear in its teaching that we are all ready in the Kingdom of God, working for the fullness of the Kingdom.
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