Is the Seventh-day Adventist Church 'Christian'?

[Pythons]

Friend…I think you are trying to argue a point I never raised nor commented on…I have no idea what you’re trying to prove or engage me in dialogue.

Publisher, in post #33 you stated.

Publisher:

SDA’s DO believe in the full divinity of Christ…like the JW’s he is identified in His pre-incarnation as “Michael”…unlike the JW’s the SDA’s do not believe He was the “first creation” of God, but God Himself in an anthropormorphic image called “Michael”

The question I addressed to you is that if by “full divinity” you mean Christ is God identical to the Father being God…
…And, if there exist no conditions OR combinations of conditions that allow for God the Father to be eternally annihilated.
…How do you affirm that SDA’s believe in the “full divinity” of Christ?

I’m looking at this question from the perspective of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium…
…I’ve collected over 100 explicit statments from Sacred Scripture that identify a peccable Christ.
…As outright Heresy.

Ephesians 1,9
he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure,** which he PURPOSED in Christ**

Ephesians 1,10
to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the PURPOSE of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

2 Timothy 1,8
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the GOSPEL according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, **WHICH WAS GIVEN US **in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Job 42,2
I know that you can do all things; NO purpose of yours can be thwarted

Psalm 33,11
But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through ALL generations

One of the most clear affirmations made that Jesus absolutely couldn’t fail is found in the Gospel of Luke…
…Verse 2, 29.

Luke 2,25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should NOT see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

God the Father said Christ wouldn’t Fail…
…God the Holy Spirit said Christ wouldn’t fail.
…Christ Himself ( God the Son ) said He wouldn’t fail.

A “self proclaimed prophet” ( Ellen Gould White ) comes along in the 1800’s…
…And affirms that Christ “could have failed” & past that even details IF He failed.
…How He would have rotted in the tomb and been eternally annihilated.

A few hundered years after this self proclaimed prophet takes her dirt nap…
…People on an internet forum claim SDA’s “believe in the full deity of Jesus”?

I have no problem with you friend and I have no problems with SDA’s at all…
…Other than their “mutation capable creature christ doctrine.”

To many Catholics have fallen easy prey to Adventist theology…
…All I’m trying to do is show others where this dragons armor is open.

Would you agree with me that one can’t believe in the Full deity of Christ…
…While suggesting that God the Son could have failed and then the real God would have annihilated Him.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, in post #33 you stated.

The question I addressed to you is that if by “full divinity” you mean Christ is God identical to the Father being God…
…And, if there exist no conditions OR combinations of conditions that allow for God the Father to be eternally annihilated.
…How do you affirm that SDA’s believe in the “full divinity” of Christ?

I’m looking at this question from the perspective of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium…
…I’ve collected over 100 explicit statments from Sacred Scripture that identify a peccable Christ.
…As outright Heresy.

I know that you can do all things; NO purpose of yours can be thwarted

Psalm 33,11
But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through ALL generations

One of the most clear affirmations made that Jesus absolutely couldn’t fail is found in the Gospel of Luke…
…Verse 2, 29.

Luke 2,25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should NOT see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

God the Father said Christ wouldn’t Fail…
…God the Holy Spirit said Christ wouldn’t fail.
…Christ Himself ( God the Son ) said He wouldn’t fail.

A “self proclaimed prophet” ( Ellen Gould White ) comes along in the 1800’s…
…And affirms that Christ “could have failed” & past that even details IF He failed.
…How He would have rotted in the tomb and been eternally annihilated.

A few hundered years after this self proclaimed prophet takes her dirt nap…
…People on an internet forum claim SDA’s “believe in the full deity of Jesus”?

I have no problem with you friend and I have no problems with SDA’s at all…
…Other than their “mutation capable creature christ doctrine.”

To many Catholics have fallen easy prey to Adventist theology…
…All I’m trying to do is show others where this dragons armor is open.

Would you agree with me that one can’t believe in the Full deity of Christ…
…While suggesting that God the Son could have failed and then the real God would have annihilated Him.

Ahh…I see now. Since I am not SDA and do not believe is “soul sleep” or “annialation” as do the JW’s, it’s of no concern to me to seek to refute one or the other…I was stating that while on the surface SDA and JW beliefs are similar…they are NOT the same in this respect.

Since I am not a Catholic, I find no problem believing that one of the mysteries of the incarnation was that God entered our humanity as fully human, and yes, could have failed…but did not…the possibility was there in my mind or the incarnation would have little meaning to me. Why “incarnate” as human if it would have been impossible for Jesus to sin or fail? The depth of love that the incarnation displayed also to me, showed just how dire our state had become. God was the only One who could accopmplish His Mission of redemption…if Jesus would have failed humanity, creation and possibly even Divinity would have been at risk…such things boggle my mind and I find “comfort” that such concepts and ideas are amazingly complex to the point of really having no answer for them since Jesus declared before He died…“IT IS FINISHED”.

If the possibility of actually sinning was in fact an impossibility, then his temptation means nothing. If him dying carried with it the assurance that He truly could not die…his death means nothing…He couldn’t lose something so there was nothing to offer. I could die and remain dead…I can sin and remain in them…if both could not have happened to Jesus, then he didn’t really suffer “temptation” since he could not have given into it…and he really didn’t suffer “death”, since he really couldn’t die…and if that were true…He accomplished nothing except went through empty motions.

 

[Pythons]

Publisher.

Ok, I can work with this, I appreciate you stating your position there.

Publisher:

If the possibility of actually sinning was in fact an impossibility, then his temptation means nothing. If him dying carried with it the assurance that He truly could not die…his death means nothing…He couldn’t lose something so there was nothing to offer. I could die and remain dead…I can sin and remain in them…if both could not have happened to Jesus, then he didn’t really suffer “temptation” since he could not have given into it…and he really didn’t suffer “death”, since he really couldn’t die…and if that were true…He accomplished nothing except went through empty motions.

IMHO you have aptly described Arian theolgoy, to a literal “T”…
…I’ll do my best to share why I believe this.

Directly after Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, God issued a statement of fact…
…This was a promise and unless we want to say that ‘God is conditional’.
…We can absolutely know that the promise was unconditional.

The Serpent would bruise a heel but the seed would bruise the Serpents head - do you remember that?
…That was an unconditional promise by God.
…No different than God’s unconditional promise to not destroy the earth again by a flood of water.

Isaiah 14,24
The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying: Surely as I have thought, so shall it be: and as I have purposed

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Take a minute and think about what every Jew at the time of Jesus had been waiting for…
…It was never a matter of if The Christ would come or if the Christ would save.
…It was only a matter of when the Christ would come and when the Christ would save.

I’m sure you’ve read the following.

Isaiah 35,4
Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you.Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness

You also would know that Jesus Himself said that EVERYTHING said about Him…
…By the Prophets HAD TO BE FULFILLED.

Luke 24,44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, THAT all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me/COLOR].

Mark 14,49
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: BUT the scriptures must be fulfilled

When “God” told the Prophet Daniel what to tell the King of Babylon about his terrifying dream…
…There was no doubt whatsoever that God, who knows the end from the Beginning, said the end would be.

Daniel 2,28 - 45…
…I would urge you to read the last two verses in that set.

Verse 44,45
**And in the days of these kings **SHALL the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; **the great God hath made known to the king **what shall come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

What I ask you to consider Publisher is that the Bible speaks of a great war in heaven where Lucifer was thrown out…
…Did Lucifer have to have a chance of defeating “God” Publisher?
…If there wasn’t the chance Lucifer could win did that make the war in heaven a farce and mockery.

You could extend this to literally anything Jesus did Publisher such as…
…If there wasn’t the chance Jesus could have sunk and drown and be eaten by crabs.
…Then Jesus walking on water was a farce and a mockery.

If Jesus, when as a Baby didn’t have the chance of being killed by the sword…
…Then Jesus being rushed to Eqypt was a farse and mockery, “shrug”.

I would be interested to hear your answer to these Scriptures Brother.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher.

Ok, I can work with this, I appreciate you stating your position there.

IMHO you have aptly described Arian theolgoy, to a literal “T”…
…I’ll do my best to share why I believe this.

Directly after Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, God issued a statement of fact…
…This was a promise and unless we want to say that ‘God is conditional’.
…We can absolutely know that the promise was unconditional.

The Serpent would bruise a heel but the seed would bruise the Serpents head - do you remember that?
…That was an unconditional promise by God.
…No different than God’s unconditional promise to not destroy the earth again by a flood of water.

Isaiah 14,24
The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying: Surely as I have thought, so shall it be: and as I have purposed

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Take a minute and think about what every Jew at the time of Jesus had been waiting for…
…It was never a matter of if The Christ would come or if the Christ would save.
…It was only a matter of when the Christ would come and when the Christ would save.

I’m sure you’ve read the following.

Isaiah 35,4
Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you.Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness

You also would know that Jesus Himself said that EVERYTHING said about Him…
…By the Prophets HAD TO BE FULFILLED.

Luke 24,44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, THAT all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me/COLOR].

Mark 14,49
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: BUT the scriptures must be fulfilled

When “God” told the Prophet Daniel what to tell the King of Babylon about his terrifying dream…
…There was no doubt whatsoever that God, who knows the end from the Beginning, said the end would be.

Daniel 2,28 - 45…
…I would urge you to read the last two verses in that set.

Verse 44,45
**And in the days of these kings **SHALL the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; **the great God hath made known to the king **what shall come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

What I ask you to consider Publisher is that the Bible speaks of a great war in heaven where Lucifer was thrown out…
…Did Lucifer have to have a chance of defeating “God” Publisher?
…If there wasn’t the chance Lucifer could win did that make the war in heaven a farce and mockery.

You could extend this to literally anything Jesus did Publisher such as…
…If there wasn’t the chance Jesus could have sunk and drown and be eaten by crabs.
…Then Jesus walking on water was a farce and a mockery.

If Jesus, when as a Baby didn’t have the chance of being killed by the sword…
…Then Jesus being rushed to Eqypt was a farse and mockery, “shrug”.

I would be interested to hear your answer to these Scriptures Brother.

I understand why you believe you do as you do. What I don’t follow are your “examples”…I don’t see how they would relate to the possibility of Jesus…a very human Jesus, “in every way like we are” failing to follow His Father’s will. As I stated…to me that He could have “lost it all” to “save us” was something He chose to do any way speaks more to me than 'He was tempted…but there’s no way he could have given into the temptation"…“He didn’t really have the possibility of actually dying and staying dead”…if “heresy” is what you see in my beleifs…you’ll not be the first here at CAF to feel that way.

The “Great War” in heaven has been one of the more obscure mythic references in scripture that has got lots of press…from books to movies to very strange ideas…conjecture on such obscure myths really don’t satisfy my spiritual longing…BUT contemplating God entering our humanity, in every way like we are…“born of a woman…born under the law…” “Having the form of God, he didn’t consider that something to be clung to…but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant” points me to the depth and breadth of HIs love.

You mentioned you feel my beliefs are Arian…I consider your beliefs somewhat Gnostic…He only appeared to be in the likeness of sinful flesh…He really couldn’t die…He really couldn’t have sinned because Deity cannot die nor sin…

 

[Pythons]

Publisher:

I understand why you believe you do as you do. What I don’t follow are your “examples”…I don’t see how they would relate to the possibility of Jesus…a very human Jesus, “in every way like we are” failing to follow His Father’s will.

In every way like us except for Sin…
…For there was no sin “in Him”.

Publisher:

As I stated…to me that He could have “lost it all” to “save us” was something He chose to do any way speaks more to me than 'He was tempted…but there’s no way he could have given into the temptation"…“He didn’t really have the possibility of actually dying and staying dead”…if “heresy” is what you see in my beleifs…you’ll not be the first here at CAF to feel that way

What I’m trying to share with you is that the Scriptures says most clearly that God knows the end from the beginning…
…God explicitly told us in Sacred Scripture exactly what the end would be.
…That’s not a conditional promise - unless God is conditional.
…That is why I asked you about that.

For a person who rejects the Doctrine of the Trinity I can easily see why they would believe as you do…
…However when one accepts the Doctrine of the Trinity this position is impossible.
…Because Jesus eternally is God in the indentical way The Father & Holy Spirit eternally is God.

If Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation the same thing would have to be possible for the Father and Holy Spirit…
…This is why I asked you if there could be any conditions whereas God the Father would be annihilated.
…You said that would be impossible becaues God is what holds everything together.

Well, because Christ is 100% God and God the Father couldn’t be “The Father” w/out the Son…
…Using simple logic I can rest at peace knowing Christ holds everything together.
…Nothing would exist without Him.

Col 1,17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him ALL things consist.

What you said about God the Father Publisher is the identical thing Scripture says about Christ…
…The Father can’t be “The Father” w/out The Son or the Holy Spirit.
…Our God is indeed ONE God.

 

[bsroufek]

Yes it is true the Sabbath is really Saturday. We mainstream Christians somehow got that wrong. The Jews got it right.

Jesus said, “Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” And He gave His authority to the Apostles, who chose Sunday as the Sabbath.

Jesus is Lord, not the Jews.

 

[Publisher]

In every way like us except for Sin…
…For there was no sin “in Him”.

What I’m trying to share with you is that the Scriptures says most clearly that God knows the end from the beginning…
…God explicitly told us in Sacred Scripture exactly what the end would be.
…That’s not a conditional promise - unless God is conditional.
…That is why I asked you about that.

For a person who rejects the Doctrine of the Trinity I can easily see why they would believe as you do…
…However when one accepts the Doctrine of the Trinity this position is impossible.
…Because Jesus eternally is God in the indentical way The Father & Holy Spirit eternally is God.

If Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation the same thing would have to be possible for the Father and Holy Spirit…
…This is why I asked you if there could be any conditions whereas God the Father would be annihilated.
…You said that would be impossible becaues God is what holds everything together.

Well, because Christ is 100% God and God the Father couldn’t be “The Father” w/out the Son…
…Using simple logic I can rest at peace knowing Christ holds everything together.
…Nothing would exist without Him.

Col 1,17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him ALL things consist.

What you said about God the Father Publisher is the identical thing Scripture says about Christ…
…The Father can’t be “The Father” w/out The Son or the Holy Spirit.
…Our God is indeed ONE God.

Friend, if believing those things brings peace to your heart…who am I to challenge that. Such beliefs do not bring me any such state.

While I may not recite your creed as being the “end all” of confessing the Trinity…I do believe God dwelled among us in Jesus of Nazareth. “He (Jesus) is the express image of His person”…and the Holy Spirit that indwells us is the very Spirit of God…to say I don’t believe in the “Trinity” is not quite accurate…but I have no vested interest in convincing you of my beliefs…whether you are convince or not really doesn’t effect my spiritual state one way or another.

 

[Pythons]

Friend, if believing those things brings peace to your heart…who am I to challenge that. Such beliefs do not bring me any such state.

While I may not recite your creed as being the “end all” of confessing the Trinity…I do believe God dwelled among us in Jesus of Nazareth. “He (Jesus) is the express image of His person”…and the Holy Spirit that indwells us is the very Spirit of God…to say I don’t believe in the “Trinity” is not quite accurate…but I have no vested interest in convincing you of my beliefs…whether you are convince or not really doesn’t effect my spiritual state one way or another.

You have already contrasted a “conditional Christ” with the eternal infinite God…
…You have separated the Substance and affirmed what’s not possible to happen with God.
…Was possible to happen with Christ.

If A = B & B = C then A = C ( Christ isn’t God ).

I can appreciate you saying God dwelt with us in Christ, but the second you assign conditions to Christ maintaining His Godhead…
…You’ve removed Christ from being God in the first place.

Not only that you’ve crafted a different god for yourself by affirming that God The Father…
…Didn’t really know the end from the beginning because Christ could have failed.
…Even though God explicitly told you that Christ would NOT fail.

This does not compute with me at all & I wonder how it is that you ignore the following facts?

Matthew 1,21
And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he **SHALL SAVE **his people from their sins

The belief that Christ could have failed actually insults God the Holy Spirit as much as it does The Father & The Son…
…Consider the following hypothetical situation HAD Christ, sinned, failed and been eternally annihilated by ‘God’.

Luke 2,25
And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples

If as you claim Christ “could have failed” Jesus couldn’t have been the Christ until such time that He “became” the Christ…
…Simeon, according to Scripture was promised by God the Holy Spirit.
…That He wouldn’t die until he witnessed THE CHRIST.

God the Holy Spirit identified God the Son to Simeon as being the Baby Jesus…
…Simeon was obviously an old man, he had lived so long he was ready / waiting to die.
…Listen to what Simeon said:

"Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word; for mine eyes **have seen thy salvation **which thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel.”

Simeon realized by observing the Baby Jesus…
…He was looking at Salvation itself.

Had Jesus failed Simeon would have been forced to “live forever” until the next archangel took a crack at the job!
…I’m not trying to be rude here but you can see how the creature Christ doctrine makes a mockery of God.
…The creature Christ doctrine, by default, claims God did not know the end from the beginning.

 

[Pythons]

Jesus said, “Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” And He gave His authority to the Apostles, who chose Sunday as the Sabbath.

Jesus is Lord, not the Jews.

The Seventh Day Adventists applied the same Scripture study to conclude Christians should only go to church on Saturday…
…As they applied to conclude God the Son could have sinned and failed.
…And if that would have been realized God the Father would have eternally annihilated creature christ.

This is as unfortunate as it is heretical.

 

[Nicea325]

You have already contrasted a “conditional Christ” with the eternal infinite God…
…You have separated the Substance and affirmed what’s not possible to happen with God.
…Was possible to happen with Christ.

If A = B & B = C then A = C ( Christ isn’t God ).

I can appreciate you saying God dwelt with us in Christ, but the second you assign conditions to Christ maintaining His Godhead…
…You’ve removed Christ from being God in the first place.

Not only that you’ve crafted a different god for yourself by affirming that God The Father…
…Didn’t really know the end from the beginning because Christ could have failed.
…Even though God explicitly told you that Christ would NOT fail.

This does not compute with me at all & I wonder how it is that you ignore the following facts?

Matthew 1,21
And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he **SHALL SAVE **his people from their sins

The belief that Christ could have failed actually insults God the Holy Spirit as much as it does The Father & The Son…
…Consider the following hypothetical situation HAD Christ, sinned, failed and been eternally annihilated by ‘God’.

Luke 2,25
And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples

If as you claim Christ “could have failed” Jesus couldn’t have been the Christ until such time that He “became” the Christ…
…Simeon, according to Scripture was promised by God the Holy Spirit.
…That He wouldn’t die until he witnessed THE CHRIST.

God the Holy Spirit identified God the Son to Simeon as being the Baby Jesus…
…Simeon was obviously an old man, he had lived so long he was ready / waiting to die.
…Listen to what Simeon said:

"Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word; for mine eyes **have seen thy salvation **which thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel.”

Simeon realized by observing the Baby Jesus…
…He was looking at Salvation itself.

Had Jesus failed Simeon would have been forced to “live forever” until the next archangel took a crack at the job!
…I’m not trying to be rude here but you can see how the creature Christ doctrine makes a mockery of God.
…The creature Christ doctrine, by default, claims God did not know the end from the beginning.

That is the problem with non-Trinitarian “Christians” because they fabricate their own God and place conditions on Christ. The above Scripture is VERY clear Jesus IS God and cannot fail…EVER!

 

[Pythons]

That is the problem with non-Trinitarian “Christians” because they fabricate their own God and place conditions on Christ. The above Scripture is VERY clear Jesus IS God and cannot fail…EVER!

YES! What blows me away in the SDA case is that if you frequent their forums…
…You can watch a significant number of their ranks openly debate against the Trinity.
…They exchange arguments with the SDA’s who claim to believe in the Trinity.

It’s grossly evident that neither the SDA’s who affirm the Trinity or the ones who openly reject it…
…Believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity.
…Because the two sides agree that creature Christ could have failed and been annihilated by ‘God’!

 

[Nicea325]

YES! What blows me away in the SDA case is that if you frequent their forums…
…You can watch a significant number of their ranks openly debate against the Trinity.
…They exchange arguments with the SDA’s who claim to believe in the Trinity.

It’s grossly evident that neither the SDA’s who affirm the Trinity or the ones who openly reject it…
…Believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity.
…Because the two sides agree that creature Christ could have failed and been annihilated by ‘God’!

Like you said:
*
I’m not trying to be rude here but you can see how the creature Christ doctrine makes a mockery of God.*

So very true. I once had a roommate who is a Jehovah Witness and they reject the Trinity too. And why? Because Jesus is God’s first creation. And where do they get such a false belief? In Scripture where it reads:

First-born. :tsktsk: Nope! Wrong!

 

[Pythons]

Like you said:
*
I’m not trying to be rude here but you can see how the creature Christ doctrine makes a mockery of God*.

So very true. I once had a roommate who is a Jehovah Witness and they reject the Trinity too. And why? Because Jesus is God’s first creation. And where do they get such a false belief? In Scripture where it reads:

First-born. :tsktsk: Nope! Wrong!

Both groups ( and a couple others ) have the identical origin of the Millerite movement in the 1800’s…
…William Miller was a Baptist Pastor who believed he had discovered the exact timing of the 2nd Coming of Christ.
…William Miller was a Trinitarian.

After the 3rd “specific time” failure of Christ’s 2nd Coming William Miller admitted his error…
…And urged everyone to return to their former churches.
…The only people left were those who didn’t have a Church to return to.
…This hard-core group of individuals only shared one thing in common - hatred / rejection of the Trinity.

These anti-Trinitarians ( which where left ) soon started to squabble over what they should have as Doctrines…
…And as a result started to splinter and fracture into sub sects.
…With each claiming a special “mark” or “seal” which they claimed identified them as the remnant.

The group which became known as the Seventh Day Adventists adopted Saturday Sabbath…
…And some Old Testament food laws ( such as not eating Lobsters, pork, etc ).
…They also adopted a strange prophet doctrine whereas Ellen White became a demi-god.
…This is how they contrasted themselves with the other non-Trinitarians which formed other groups.

Through the teachings of Ellen White other alien doctrines came into existence…
…Such as God the Father and Lucifer having “rectums” and “flesh”.
…Also that certain races of Negroes were resultant from Orangutan’s breeding Negresses.

In Arian theology the most important teaching is to contrast ‘God’ ( which in the strict sense is ONLY the Father )…
…With everything else, no matter how high the life form, of which ALL, EVERYTHING.
…Is “conditional”

This is why SDA’s will feverishly & with great velocity defend their teaching that Christ could have sinned…
…And detail how ‘God’ would have eternally annihilated this creature Christ had He sinned.
…They claim ( as all Arians do ) that eternally no conditions could ever exist to cause the permanent extinction of the Father.
…And immediately thereafter detail how creature Christ ( AKA Michael ) could have failed and become extinct forever.

They do this despite the literal tons of Scripture that has God Himself ( Father, Son & Holy Spirit )…
…Flat out say in the most clear ways that such a thing was eternally “impossible”.
…This is a perfect example of just how powerful SDA’s understand their prophet Ellen to be.
…Because she openly repudiated The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit in this area.

There is ONLY one thing in this universe that is consistent and that’s God and what God says…
…Ellen Gould White, to further the aims of Arianism, rebuked the Holy Trinity.
…Simply because she viewed the Trinity as “the wine of Babylon”.

The following is a photograph of Ellen Gould White.
http://www.blacksdahistory.org/image/53064003_scaled_188x256.jpg

 

[Nicea325]

Both groups ( and a couple others ) have the identical origin of the Millerite movement in the 1800’s…
…William Miller was a Baptist Pastor who believed he had discovered the exact timing of the 2nd Coming of Christ.
…William Miller was a Trinitarian.

After the 3rd “specific time” failure of Christ’s 2nd Coming William Miller admitted his error…
…And urged everyone to return to their former churches.
…The only people left were those who didn’t have a Church to return to.
…This hard-core group of individuals only shared one thing in common - hatred / rejection of the Trinity.

These anti-Trinitarians ( which where left ) soon started to squabble over what they should have as Doctrines…
…And as a result started to splinter and fracture into sub sects.
…With each claiming a special “mark” or “seal” which they claimed identified them as the remnant.

The group which became known as the Seventh Day Adventists adopted Saturday Sabbath…
…And some Old Testament food laws ( such as not eating Lobsters, pork, etc ).
…They also adopted a strange prophet doctrine whereas Ellen White became a demi-god.
…This is how they contrasted themselves with the other non-Trinitarians which formed other groups.

Through the teachings of Ellen White other alien doctrines came into existence…
…Such as God the Father and Lucifer having “rectums” and “flesh”.
…Also that certain races of Negroes were resultant from Orangutan’s breeding Negresses.

In Arian theology the most important teaching is to contrast ‘God’ ( which in the strict sense is ONLY the Father )…
…With everything else, no matter how high the life form, of which ALL, EVERYTHING.
…Is “conditional”

This is why SDA’s will feverishly & with great velocity defend their teaching that Christ could have sinned…
…And detail how ‘God’ would have eternally annihilated this creature Christ had He sinned.
…They claim ( as all Arians do ) that eternally no conditions could ever exist to cause the permanent extinction of the Father.
…And immediately thereafter detail how creature Christ ( AKA Michael ) could have failed and become extinct forever.

They do this despite the literal tons of Scripture that has God Himself ( Father, Son & Holy Spirit )…
…Flat out say in the most clear ways that such a thing was eternally “impossible”.
…This is a perfect example of just how powerful SDA’s understand their prophet Ellen to be.
…Because she openly repudiated The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit in this area.

There is ONLY one thing in this universe that is consistent and that’s God and what God says…
…Ellen Gould White, to further the aims of Arianism, rebuked the Holy Trinity.
…Simply because she viewed the Trinity as “the wine of Babylon”.

The following is a photograph of Ellen Gould White.
http://www.blacksdahistory.org/image/53064003_scaled_188x256.jpg

Indeed…indeed. A very “unique” bunch. I remember discussing with my JW roommate who one day left his NWT Bible (JW printed Bible) and I happened to catch in John 1:1 and it read…“a” god. Therefore, I asked him later:

So JW’s believe in multiple gods?

His reply: No…we believe in Jehovah only- the Almighty

My response: Okay, but why does your Bible add “a” before the word god…lower case g? Is he a god or what?

His reply: Got very irritated.

 

[Pythons]

Indeed…indeed. A very “unique” bunch. I remember discussing with my JW roommate who one day left his NWT Bible (JW printed Bible) and I happened to catch in John 1:1 and it read…“a” god. Therefore, I asked him later:

So JW’s believe in multiple gods?

His reply: No…we believe in Jehovah only- the Almighty

My response: Okay, but why does your Bible add “a” before the word god…lower case g? Is he a god or what?

His reply: Got very irritated.

Unfortunately the SDA’s are not as honest as the JW’s are in this case…
…As they openly affirm they believe in the Trinity.
…But theologically they are right in line with the JW’s.

At the end of the day there is no difference - both groups reject the Trinity…
…It’s just that the SDA’s have re-defined the Trinity then gloat they believe it.

 

[Nicea325]

Unfortunately the SDA’s are not as honest as the JW’s are in this case…
…As they openly affirm they believe in the Trinity.
…But theologically they are right in line with the JW’s.

At the end of the day there is no difference - both groups reject the Trinity…
…It’s just that the SDA’s have re-defined the Trinity then gloat they believe it.

Yep! That is the whole key with them: re-defining terms to jive with their doctrines.

 

[thrasher59]

Every SDA literature that I’ve read, is a pointed attack on the Catholic Church. They blame us for changing the Sabbath is only one of many attacks. There are many " Christian" faiths, but only one true church- the Roman Catholic Church.So whether it is " Christian" or not isn’t the question- does it contain the essentials of salvation? Holy Mother Church is the only church started by Jesus Christ- every other church that claims to be " Christian" was started by a human,whether man or woman; never forget that.

 

[Pythons]

Every SDA literature that I’ve read, is a pointed attack on the Catholic Church. They blame us for changing the Sabbath is only one of many attacks. There are many " Christian" faiths, but only one true church- the Roman Catholic Church.So whether it is " Christian" or not isn’t the question- does it contain the essentials of salvation? Holy Mother Church is the only church started by Jesus Christ- every other church that claims to be " Christian" was started by a human,whether man or woman; never forget that.

That’s true, the SDA’s seem bent on slandering the Catholic Church…
…You will find that most every small sect makes outlandish claims about itself.

I’m convinced that if more Catholics knew the basics of the Trinity…
…The SDA’s would have a much harder time sheep stealing ignorant Catholics.

 

[Pythons]

The following SDA created video demonstrates the seriousness of the problem in SDAism…
…At the 1:20 minute mark you can hear a quote from Ellen Gould White in her Controversy book.
…Where she affirms Lucifer got really mad after ‘God’ “EXALTED” Christ and gave Him added power.
…Lucifer wanted this power and got very jealous after God gave it to creature Christ.

youtube.com/watch?v=MCDfSwPVdqY

 

[Nicea325]

The following SDA created video demonstrates the seriousness of the problem in SDAism…
…At the 1:20 minute mark you can hear a quote from Ellen Gould White in her Controversy book.
…Where she affirms Lucifer got really mad after ‘God’ “EXALTED” Christ and gave Him added power.
…Lucifer wanted this power and got very jealous after God gave it to creature Christ.

youtube.com/watch?v=MCDfSwPVdqY

Oh yeah…I have seen it. Jesus is God so how did He get exalted?