Is the SSPX schismatic?

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Andreas Hofer:
An entire organization of priests running around operating despite having no faculties whatsoever (because they have no bishops in communion with the Church) sounds schismatic to me. Publicly avowing devotion to the pope while persisting in disobedience to him and the entire body of bishops also doesn’t come off as true repentance. A real effort to overcome disobedience would probably involve, say, seeking some sort of licit incardination, be it for the society as a whole to re-enter the fold or for individual priests to seek entry into societies, institutes, or dioceses.
But is the body of bishops under the Pope fiathful to the Pope?
On paper it may look that way but in reality is it???
 
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katolik:
But is the body of bishops under the Pope fiathful to the Pope?
On paper it may look that way but in reality is it???
Is it really are place to make this decision? Isn’t doing so making ourselves the authority over the Church as protestants and others do?

Besides that show me the proof where one of the bishops in union with the Holy Father has taught against what the Church teaches and do not show me the things where disagreement is allowed and do not dredge up the “sex scandal”.
 
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

**This is really interesting. I have a friend who chose to belong to a schismatic Catholic Church years ago, when her father convinced her that it was the “true” Catholic Church…Very traditional…Very “Catholic” in it’s practices and activities. **

She has raised her children in this church…So…I guess she is a schismatic, but her kids are not. Interesting.

Thanks so much for the information. It’s something I have wondered about.
 
I don’t think its enough for the pope to just bring in the leadership and priests to the Novus Ordo. That would , of course, bring in needed priests for parish work.

But I would hope that whatever is worked out, will not exclude the SSPX laity. It would be a pyrrhic victory to convince the clergy to “cross the tiber”, but to have most of the SSPX faithful not come back.

It could be crucial depending on how the properties of the SSPX are titled, you could have a situation where a priest and some of the faithful come back, but others and the property stay outside the church.

That wouldn’t be that great as you’d just have a priest without a parish or building to report to.
 
The SSPX clergy are on the “right side of the Tiber”. No one wants to admit that, but some do. A Bishop in Italy actually asked a SSPX priest to say his diocesean indult Mass* and the SSPX priest is still saying the indult Mass
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Kielbasi:
I don’t think its enough for the pope to just bring in the leadership and priests to the Novus Ordo. That would , of course, bring in needed priests for parish work.

But I would hope that whatever is worked out, will not exclude the SSPX laity. It would be a pyrrhic victory to convince the clergy to “cross the tiber”, but to have most of the SSPX faithful not come back.

It could be crucial depending on how the properties of the SSPX are titled, you could have a situation where a priest and some of the faithful come back, but others and the property stay outside the church.

That wouldn’t be that great as you’d just have a priest without a parish or building to report to.
 
I think something interesting is the following:

Schismatics (who have valid orders, including, of course, bishops) have valid Sacraments–including Marriage and Confession. If the SSPX is schismatic, then they have valid Marriages and Confessions. This means that they are not under the authority of the Local Ordinary (the bishop of the diocese in which they reside) but rather that they are under the authority of the bishop of their schismatic ‘church’. If the SSPX is in schism, then this is the case–they are not under the jurisdiction of the bishop of the diocese in which they reside; they have their own bishops under whose authority they operate; and, on top of that, they have valid Sacraments–all 7, including Marriage and Confession. If the SSPX is not in schism, then they do not have valid Marriages and Confessions; they are under the jurisdiction of the local ordinary; they have valid orders, but they are operating with ‘suspended faculties’ (thus they have valid Masses but invalid Confessions and Marriages). Also, correct me if I am wrong, but every Confirmation performed by a priest (the extraordinary minister of the Sacrament), if this Confirmation were only approved by the SSPX bishop and not actually administrated by him, would be invalid. I would think that the second scenario is true–SSPX has suspended faculties, invalid Confessions and Marriages, and they are subject to the local ordinary; thus, they are not in schism; they are merely a suppressed Order operating with suspended faculties (some of whom may or may not be in true disobedience of the Church–both priest and faithful, but especially the faithful). What (if anything) is incorrect in my analysis?
 
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katolik:
The SSPX clergy are on the “right side of the Tiber”. No one wants to admit that, but some do.
It is not hesitancy to admit this, rather a lack of credibility from this group that I have. I have followed this topic since May on these forums and the case for schism has been soundly and repeatedly made. Even the name og this group speaks volumns. Were Pope Pious X still pope, then he would need to be followed in disciplinary matters. To be on the “right side of the Tiber”, one must follow Pope John Paul II.
 
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amarkich:
I think something interesting is the following:

Schismatics (who have valid orders, including, of course, bishops) have valid Sacraments–including Marriage and Confession.Not quite true. Both marriage and confession require jurisdiction which only the local bishop can grant. Because the SSPX is not in communion with Rome they do not have jurisdiction. Even religious order priests require the jurisdiction granted by the local bishop to celebrate marriages and hear confessions. The sole exception is confession *in extremis *where any priest, even a laicized one, is required to hear the confession and grant absolution.
You ask what, if anything is correct in your analysis. The answer is – nothing. Because your premise was flawed the analysis simply continued down the wrong path.

Deacon Ed
 
Theoretically, it would be ideal for the SSPX to show obedience to the pope, accept the English mass and become novus ordo.

But that’s just a theory , because there are a lot of the faithful out there who just don’t accept the new way of doing things. Most of those folks, including a sizable portion of my relatives are passive-aggressive about the matter, and since the 60s , just haven’t shown their faces in church except when someone is getting married or buried.

I don’t think the folks who took the SSPX route are any worse off.

I think the key is education amongst the Catholic faithful who haven’t taken to vatican II yet, and hopefully the next pope will consider this a priority to promote the novus ordo mass among those Catholics.
 
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katolik:
The SSPX clergy are on the “right side of the Tiber”. No one wants to admit that, but some do. A Bishop in Italy actually asked a SSPX priest to say his diocesean indult Mass* and the SSPX priest is still saying the indult Mass*
More hearsay and I will not believe it until you show proof.

The SSPX are not on the right side as they deny the Mass of the Catholic Church.
 
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ByzCath:
More hearsay and I will not believe it until you show proof.

The SSPX are not on the right side as they deny the Mass of the Catholic Church.
What do they deny? Is there only one Eucharistic Rite in the whole Catholic Church? You too must be in schism because you attend the Divine Liturgy of St.John or St.Basil, which is not the Mass of the Catholic Church?
 
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katolik:
But is the body of bishops under the Pope fiathful to the Pope?
On paper it may look that way but in reality is it???
Here you go Byzcath
Muslim “allah” is same as the one true Catholic Christian God- The Trinity one in being and undivided.
lcdiocese.org/bishop/writings/view.asp?ArticleID=11
Cardinal Mahony with two heretics-who call themselves bishop at a baptism
www.the-tidings.com/2004/1119/ecumenicalnew1.htm
Bishops’ New catechism skirts around the Faith with ambigous definitons [see sacrament]
www.post-gazette.com/pg/04324/414174.stm
Bishop supports sodomite spousal “rights”
www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/nov/04111603.html
Bishops asking to allow sodomites to the Eucharist
biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041111/nyth066_1.html
DO you need anymore?
 
discussion of traditionalists-banned topic.

post #52- complaint for anti-semite signature. KATOLIK suspended for 10 days see suspended users.

moved to threads under review
 
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