Is the trinity contradictory?

[jpett]

many people say that the trinity is contradictory. I guess the argument goes that three DIFFERENT things can not be the one and the SAME thing in terms of identity, since different means (not the same), and the same means (not different). Can the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be three different persons,(all different in identity), and simoultaneously the same God, (Same in identity)? Interested to see your views on the problem.

 

[judynurse]

When I was a young child this was explained to me in a really simple way:

A man can be a son to his own father, he can be a father to his own son, he is also an individual who is loving — are they the same person? Yes.

 

[chefmomster2]

many people say that the trinity is contradictory. I guess the argument goes that three DIFFERENT things can not be the one and the SAME thing in terms of identity, since different means (not the same), and the same means (not different). Can the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be three different persons,(all different in identity), and simoultaneously the same God, (Same in identity)? Interested to see your views on the problem.

The Trinity is not contradictory, but it is a mystery! The Catechism of the Catholic Church #232-267. is a good place to start in trying to understand this difficult concept.

252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

IN BRIEF

261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

262 The Incarnation of God’s Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.

263 The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (⇒ Jn 14:26) and by the Son “from the Father” (⇒ Jn 15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. “With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified” (Nicene Creed).

264 “The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son” (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42, 1095).

265 By the grace of Baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”, we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG # 9).

266 “Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son’s Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[chefmomster2]

When I was a young child this was explained to me in a really simple way:

A man can be a son to his own father, he can be a father to his own son, he is also an individual who is loving — are they the same person? Yes.

Love it!

 

[Neofight]

No…next question?

 

[po18guy]

Many people say a lot of things. Sounds like you might be hanging around the wrong crowd.

As to the Trinity, it is all about consubstantiality - being of the same substance. Water, ice and steam are all of the same substance, but possess differing physical traits and perform differing functions.

 

[judynurse]

Many people say a lot of things. Sounds like you might be hanging around the wrong crowd.

As to the Trinity, it is all about consubstantiality - being of the same substance. Water, ice and steam are all of the same substance, but possess differing physical traits and perform differing functions.

I like that one too! Excellent explanation for a young group of kids learning about the Trinity! Also a good reminder for adults needing a clarification which is simple and direct!

 

[hasantas]

When I was a young child this was explained to me in a really simple way:

A man can be a son to his own father, he can be a father to his own son, he is also an individual who is loving — are they the same person? Yes.

in your explain there are two different persons( father and son) but God is unique. İt is true that one man can have different personalities in diffrenet conditions. A boss at work, a father or husband at home, a friend between friends etc. Also those personalities are attributes and characters of that man. Like that God have many attributes just like Most Merciful, Most Graceful, Creator, life giver, eternal see, hear, power etc. But if God had created Son then God is a creator bot not father. And if Son is absolutely a God Like God then Son can not be Son of other God. I wonder that how Jesus is Son of God? İf both are same in all why we call Jesus to be Son? Or does Jesus have any entity before He was born? Why did not former prophets tell anything about Son God? İn other posts ı expressed many contradictories in Trinity doctrine.

 

[balto]

As you correctly noted, the key is understanding that the doctrine of the Trinity entails that God exists as three Persons that fully possess the divine nature of God.

The Trinity is not contradictory, but it is a mystery! The Catechism of the Catholic Church #232-267. is a good place to start in trying to understand this difficult concept.

I would like to supplement your post by adding that when Catholics say that such-and-such a doctrine is a “mystery” we are not claiming that the doctrine is unintelligible and therefore must be accepted on the fiat of some theologian. Rather, we are claiming that the doctrine is so intelligible that it is impossible to understand it fully with a limited human intellect. We can know something about it and can always learn more.

Here is my understanding of the Trinity (limited as it certainly is!): God is infinite in His ability to know and love (there are proofs for this but they can get highly technical). What is a suitable object for God’s knowing? Creation? No, because God is not a being, but Being Itself and therefore lacks nothing. Additionally, a finite reality is obviously not a suitable object of an infinite ability to know. God can know Himself though. But since God’s ability to know Himself is infinite, His knowledge of Himself is perfect and is not limited in any way. Since His knowledge of Himself is as perfect as He Himself is, His self-knowledge manifests as the Second Person. Hence the reason we call the Second Person the “Word of God.” Words express ideas. The Second Person is God’s idea of Himself

The Third Person concerns God’s ability to love. Again, God does not need to create anything in order to love it because He lacks nothing. So what does God love infinitely? Well God can love Himself infinitely, but what specifically is occurring is that God loves His self-knowledge infinitely (i.e. the First and Second Person love each other infinitely). When you love someone, you pour out your being into the beloved. Since the First and Second Person pour out their personhoods infinitely into the love of each other, their pouring out of love manifests as the Third Person. Hence, the reason the Third Person is called the “Holy Spirit” is because this pouring out of love is a breathing out or “spiration” of love.

This may seem very abstract but consider that something analogous to this divine life exists in a human person, albeit to a severely limited degree. We exist as people that can know and love. We can have conceptions of ourselves. Whenever you think “oh what was I thinking when I did that?!” you are having a conception of yourself. Since our knowing is finite, this self-knowledge is only a mental concept and does not become an actual person equal to ourselves. We can also have a certain feeling of love or hate towards this knowledge of ourselves. But again our ability to love this self-conception exists only in our will and not in actuality.

 

[jpett]

When I was a young child this was explained to me in a really simple way:

A man can be a son to his own father, he can be a father to his own son, he is also an individual who is loving — are they the same person? Yes.

Yet, a man is not three different things and the one and the same thing. We can CALL him three different names in relation to other persons, but that doesn’t make him three different things in one.

 

[jpett]

Many people say a lot of things. Sounds like you might be hanging around the wrong crowd.

As to the Trinity, it is all about consubstantiality - being of the same substance. Water, ice and steam are all of the same substance, but possess differing physical traits and perform differing functions.

but some would say that water, ice, and steam are three different things and not the same thing in identity. Saying that water, ice, and steam are three different things, yet the same thing in nature is not the same as saying they are three different things in identity and yet the same in identity.

 

[PJM]

=jpett;11972101]many people say that the trinity is contradictory. I guess the argument goes that three DIFFERENT things can not be the one and the SAME thing in terms of identity, since different means (not the same), and the same means (not different). Can the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be three different persons,(all different in identity), and simoultaneously the same God, (Same in identity)? Interested to see your views on the problem.

Fair enough:shrug:

What does the bible teach? AND WHERE DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT WE ABSOUTLEY MUST UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING? The term “Faith” is applied because that is exactly what IT TAKES:thumbsup:

Isaiah 55: 6-10 “Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater”

Matt. 3: 13-17
"Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.[PERMITTED HIM] And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water:[GOD THE SON] and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove,[GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. [GOD THE FATHER]

**Mt. 28:18-20 **
“And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[chefmomster2]

but some would say that water, ice, and steam are three different things and not the same thing in identity. Saying that water, ice, and steam are three different things, yet the same thing in nature is not the same as saying they are three different things in identity and yet the same in identity.

Neither of the examples given you are perfect, of course. There is no perfect example. Nothing else compares to the Blessed Trinity. But, they are decent ways to wrap your head around the idea.

 

[po18guy]

but some would say that water, ice, and steam are three different things and not the same thing in identity. Saying that water, ice, and steam are three different things, yet the same thing in nature is not the same as saying they are three different things in identity and yet the same in identity.

The same substance. That’s all we need to know.

 

[ccmnxc]

I think people tend to get the erroneous idea that we are basically saying 1 is equivalent to 3 but just hiding that contradiction under the guise of “mystery.”
While we do say there is an element of mystery, the doctrine is not so simplistic so as to commit such an obvious error. I’m currently reading Frank Sheed’s Theology and Sanity which puts out a pretty good explanation of the Trinity (though I’m not sure how in-line it is with Church teaching considering the book does not have a nihil obstat or imprimatur).

 

[chefmomster2]

I think people tend to get the erroneous idea that we are basically saying 1 is equivalent to 3 but just hiding that contradiction under the guise of “mystery.”
While we do say there is an element of mystery, the doctrine is not so simplistic so as to commit such an obvious error. I’m currently reading Frank Sheed’s Theology and Sanity which puts out a pretty good explanation of the Trinity (though I’m not sure how in-line it is with Church teaching considering the book does not have a nihil obstat or imprimatur).

It has ecclesiastical approval. That means it was published properly in accord with all Church laws in force at the time.

 

[balto]

I think people tend to get the erroneous idea that we are basically saying 1 is equivalent to 3 but just hiding that contradiction under the guise of “mystery.”
While we do say there is an element of mystery, the doctrine is not so simplistic so as to commit such an obvious error. I’m currently reading Frank Sheed’s Theology and Sanity which puts out a pretty good explanation of the Trinity (though I’m not sure how in-line it is with Church teaching considering the book does not have a nihil obstat or imprimatur).

I read that book last winter. It is an excellent book and you have nothing to worry about as far as doctrinal error is concerned. His Theology for Beginners is also an excellent introduction for things of this nature for any readers who may be interested.

 

[ccmnxc]

Glad to hear that. Thank you

 

[Larryk113]

Many people say a lot of things. Sounds like you might be hanging around the wrong crowd.

As to the Trinity, it is all about consubstantiality - being of the same substance. Water, ice and steam are all of the same substance, but possess differing physical traits and perform differing functions.

Great explanation!

 

[WmJackP]

many people say that the trinity is contradictory. I guess the argument goes that three DIFFERENT things can not be the one and the SAME thing in terms of identity, since different means (not the same), and the same means (not different). Can the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be three different persons,(all different in identity), and simoultaneously the same God, (Same in identity)? Interested to see your views on the problem.

I suppose you can say that “a square is circular” and the statement can be understood in the sense that it equates a noun with a noun. But it is a meaningless statement because if one understands the concept of “roundness” then it’s meaning cannot be applied to what is understood as “square”.

The doctrine of the trinity is perhaps best understood as a device to place Christ within a monotheistic context. The ancients struggled with this question for decades before arriving at a description. To the extent to which there was inherent conflict with logic, it became alibied by characterizing the conflict as a mystery of faith.