Is the unpopular opinion always considered "judging"?

[CatholicZ09]

Most of you have heard about Bruce Jenner’s debut as Caitlyn Jenner. I was reading through the comments on some news articles on this issue. Some Christians commented and said that no matter what, Bruce will always be a man because God made him that way. I noticed that most of the comments in response to those comments basically stated, “Well, if you’re such a good Christian, then why are you judging?” None of the comments that tried to shine a biblical light on the issue came off as ignorant, but it is our Christian duty to warn our neighbors of their sins. Am I the only one that noticed this, or are those who side with the unpopular opinion considered “judgmental” all too often? Why is having a Bible-based opinion so bad? It seems that it is easy to brush someone off as judgmental if he or she does not agree with what he or she has to say.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You present some tricky issues, in a way I haven’t seen them addressed before.

There are lots of ways to manipulate conversations, and I think you’ve hit one of the Real Biggies. Being the other person’s Thought Police. If I tell somebody their opinions are “judgmental” then I’m being judgmental and presumptuous AND prideful, and whether or not I am right, they are intended to attack another person in the name of having attacked another person.

Personally, I don’t know Bruce Jenner. I would never consider going transgender myself. I accept the way I was made and use it.

But once a young lady I really found very positive and almost-Christian and was a great wife and mother – but had several tattoos, talked on Facebook about a movie called “Modify” that she thought was really awesome. I think it was on Netflix, but I can’t find it now. It’s pretty intense, but I got amazing insights into human behavior from it.

The movie covered everything from simply wearing makeup and jewelry, to tattoos and piercings, to things that made transgender surgery seem “normal” by comparison. I’m talking where they do stuff like hold themselves up by a few meat hooks they have put through the skin on their backs. Here’s an article about such a thing:

Why Do People Want to Hang From Hooks Piercing Their Skin?

Others did things like have all their teeth removed so they could get teeth like lizards or other animals and creatures. And they pay dearly in terms of pain - tongue surgery is extremely painful.

Is the “lizard man” beautiful? Or did he destroy the temple God gave him? The “lizard man” and many of his admirers think the former. Who is to say that this guy didn’t see a few too many of the original Star Trek episodes when he was very young, or maybe in the womb… he’s not that much “strange” looking than some of the alien chicks Captain Kirk would hit on for love or strategy:



So yeah, compared to this, the Caitlyn thing is totally under the radar!

The movie really got me to ask the question whether there was a “qualitative” difference between these different methods of modifying one’s own body. It’s kind of like porn, that surely exists but society has yet to find an adequate legal definition.

On the movie they actually showed transgender surgery going both directions. So it was pretty graphic.

You could say, “well I draw the line at ear lobe and maybe nose piercing – but on the side only not in the middle. Pierce the lips or the middle of the nose or the tongue and now it’s yucky and sinful and shows you have no respect for the body God gave you.”

Or you could say, "ok anything that involves surgery just for the sake of looks … " that gives another rabbit hole if you allow “repairs” but not “modifications”. What are repairs other than modifications? What if they aren’t functional but keep you from “looking like a freak” as in replacing an earlobe for a soldier who suffered a laceration which cut it off? Jesus performed reconstructive surgery. What if someone thinks they are using modification to make their image more beautiful like Michael Jackson? He did some weird stuff but who is to say he should not have been allowed to experiment with his face? What about breast implants either just because, or after one is removed due to cancer? Is that vanity? Is it evil? Is it making the body an animated lie to “pretend” she has breasts when she “really doesn’t”?

So what about Caitlyn? She can identify however she wants. Nearly everybody in civilized society know what the Christian Bible says that God made us man and woman, presumably for our whole lives. But even God has “other” categories – there are situations where hermaphrodite babies have both testicular and ovarian tissue, whether or not either or both are functional. Sometimes it’s up to the family whether to consider the child male or female, which the child may or may not identify with with it gets older.

So actually God does make them male, female, and “other” in real, physical life. There are “its” and “boths” so that means I can make all the absolutist statements I want about God and how He makes people, but they are only human ideas and we already know they are not sufficient to explain all that God does – or that other people that God made, do.

So did Bruce/Caitlyn sin? It makes zero difference to me. I plan to die as a cisgender, as I would advise to anybody who asks me or about whom I care. But if they want to go trans- then how does that hurt me? It doesn’t unless I judge it.

 

[cjforJesus]

You present some tricky issues, in a way I haven’t seen them addressed before.

There are lots of ways to manipulate conversations, and I think you’ve hit one of the Real Biggies. Being the other person’s Thought Police. If I tell somebody their opinions are “judgmental” then I’m being judgmental and presumptuous AND prideful, and whether or not I am right, they are intended to attack another person in the name of having attacked another person.

Personally, I don’t know Bruce Jenner. I would never consider going transgender myself. I accept the way I was made and use it.

But once a young lady I really found very positive and almost-Christian and was a great wife and mother – but had several tattoos, talked on Facebook about a movie called “Modify” that she thought was really awesome. I think it was on Netflix, but I can’t find it now. It’s pretty intense, but I got amazing insights into human behavior from it.

The movie covered everything from simply wearing makeup and jewelry, to tattoos and piercings, to things that made transgender surgery seem “normal” by comparison. I’m talking where they do stuff like hold themselves up by a few meat hooks they have put through the skin on their backs. Here’s an article about such a thing:

Why Do People Want to Hang From Hooks Piercing Their Skin?

Others did things like have all their teeth removed so they could get teeth like lizards or other animals and creatures. And they pay dearly in terms of pain - tongue surgery is extremely painful.

Is the “lizard man” beautiful? Or did he destroy the temple God gave him? The “lizard man” and many of his admirers think the former. Who is to say that this guy didn’t see a few too many of the original Star Trek episodes when he was very young, or maybe in the womb… he’s not that much “strange” looking than some of the alien chicks Captain Kirk would hit on for love or strategy:

http://www.ripleys.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/123.jpg

So yeah, compared to this, the Caitlyn thing is totally under the radar!

The movie really got me to ask the question whether there was a “qualitative” difference between these different methods of modifying one’s own body. It’s kind of like porn, that surely exists but society has yet to find an adequate legal definition.

On the movie they actually showed transgender surgery going both directions. So it was pretty graphic.

You could say, “well I draw the line at ear lobe and maybe nose piercing – but on the side only not in the middle. Pierce the lips or the middle of the nose or the tongue and now it’s yucky and sinful and shows you have no respect for the body God gave you.”

Or you could say, "ok anything that involves surgery just for the sake of looks … " that gives another rabbit hole if you allow “repairs” but not “modifications”. What are repairs other than modifications? What if they aren’t functional but keep you from “looking like a freak” as in replacing an earlobe for a soldier who suffered a laceration which cut it off? Jesus performed reconstructive surgery. What if someone thinks they are using modification to make their image more beautiful like Michael Jackson? He did some weird stuff but who is to say he should not have been allowed to experiment with his face? What about breast implants either just because, or after one is removed due to cancer? Is that vanity? Is it evil? Is it making the body an animated lie to “pretend” she has breasts when she “really doesn’t”?

So what about Caitlyn? She can identify however she wants. Nearly everybody in civilized society know what the Christian Bible says that God made us man and woman, presumably for our whole lives. But even God has “other” categories – there are situations where hermaphrodite babies have both testicular and ovarian tissue, whether or not either or both are functional. Sometimes it’s up to the family whether to consider the child male or female, which the child may or may not identify with with it gets older.

So actually God does make them male, female, and “other” in real, physical life. There are “its” and “boths” so that means I can make all the absolutist statements I want about God and how He makes people, but they are only human ideas and we already know they are not sufficient to explain all that God does – or that other people that God made, do.

So did Bruce/Caitlyn sin? It makes zero difference to me. I plan to die as a cisgender, as I would advise to anybody who asks me or about whom I care. But if they want to go trans- then how does that hurt me? It doesn’t unless I judge it.

I don’t think hermaphrodite babies are another “category of God”.They are simply physical disorders of a fallen world. Generally a male fetus is feminized at a critical stage of development and the male genitalia compromised. These children while at times looking female are genetically male. It is an aberration just as missing limbs and such,nature somehow thwarted. We do not know the reasons for this or why some people hate their genitalia to an extreme degree or wish to be another gender.

I feel sad for them but the world encourages these expressions while we as Catholics should pray for those afflicted

 

[TARRAT]

If people started to believe that the sun rose in the west and set in the east, would it be a judgement that they are wrong? NO! It is a fact. What happens here is that people want to make a judgement of you. They judge you as being judgemental. They use it to try to discredit you when in fact they discredit themselves as making a judgement that something that is a fact is in THEIR OPINION a judgement.

 

[eightydeuce82]

You present some tricky issues, in a way I haven’t seen them addressed before.

There are lots of ways to manipulate conversations, and I think you’ve hit one of the Real Biggies. Being the other person’s Thought Police. If I tell somebody their opinions are “judgmental” then I’m being judgmental and presumptuous AND prideful, and whether or not I am right, they are intended to attack another person in the name of having attacked another person.

Personally, I don’t know Bruce Jenner. I would never consider going transgender myself. I accept the way I was made and use it.

But once a young lady I really found very positive and almost-Christian and was a great wife and mother – but had several tattoos, talked on Facebook about a movie called “Modify” that she thought was really awesome. I think it was on Netflix, but I can’t find it now. It’s pretty intense, but I got amazing insights into human behavior from it.

The movie covered everything from simply wearing makeup and jewelry, to tattoos and piercings, to things that made transgender surgery seem “normal” by comparison. I’m talking where they do stuff like hold themselves up by a few meat hooks they have put through the skin on their backs. Here’s an article about such a thing:

Why Do People Want to Hang From Hooks Piercing Their Skin?

Others did things like have all their teeth removed so they could get teeth like lizards or other animals and creatures. And they pay dearly in terms of pain - tongue surgery is extremely painful.

Is the “lizard man” beautiful? Or did he destroy the temple God gave him? The “lizard man” and many of his admirers think the former. Who is to say that this guy didn’t see a few too many of the original Star Trek episodes when he was very young, or maybe in the womb… he’s not that much “strange” looking than some of the alien chicks Captain Kirk would hit on for love or strategy:

http://www.ripleys.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/123.jpg

So yeah, compared to this, the Caitlyn thing is totally under the radar!

The movie really got me to ask the question whether there was a “qualitative” difference between these different methods of modifying one’s own body. It’s kind of like porn, that surely exists but society has yet to find an adequate legal definition.

On the movie they actually showed transgender surgery going both directions. So it was pretty graphic.

You could say, “well I draw the line at ear lobe and maybe nose piercing – but on the side only not in the middle. Pierce the lips or the middle of the nose or the tongue and now it’s yucky and sinful and shows you have no respect for the body God gave you.”

Or you could say, "ok anything that involves surgery just for the sake of looks … " that gives another rabbit hole if you allow “repairs” but not “modifications”. What are repairs other than modifications? What if they aren’t functional but keep you from “looking like a freak” as in replacing an earlobe for a soldier who suffered a laceration which cut it off? Jesus performed reconstructive surgery. What if someone thinks they are using modification to make their image more beautiful like Michael Jackson? He did some weird stuff but who is to say he should not have been allowed to experiment with his face? What about breast implants either just because, or after one is removed due to cancer? Is that vanity? Is it evil? Is it making the body an animated lie to “pretend” she has breasts when she “really doesn’t”?

So what about Caitlyn? She can identify however she wants. Nearly everybody in civilized society know what the Christian Bible says that God made us man and woman, presumably for our whole lives. But even God has “other” categories – there are situations where hermaphrodite babies have both testicular and ovarian tissue, whether or not either or both are functional. Sometimes it’s up to the family whether to consider the child male or female, which the child may or may not identify with with it gets older.

So actually God does make them male, female, and “other” in real, physical life. There are “its” and “boths” so that means I can make all the absolutist statements I want about God and how He makes people, but they are only human ideas and we already know they are not sufficient to explain all that God does – or that other people that God made, do.

So did Bruce/Caitlyn sin? It makes zero difference to me. I plan to die as a cisgender, as I would advise to anybody who asks me or about whom I care. But if they want to go trans- then how does that hurt me? It doesn’t unless I judge it.

Yes god made hermaphrodite babies and people but he made Bruce a man. This may not personally hurt you but it hurts society. Porn was once frowned upon…now its accepted. Divorce was once a no-no and now its accepted. Same sex marriage and so on and so forth…our society is glorifying these things and our kids are soaking it up. That’s what is scary.

God made Bruce a man any argument (and I’ve heard many) if God wanted Bruce to be a woman he would have done so at conception. All other arguments are invalid.

 

[KEP1983]

You present some tricky issues, in a way I haven’t seen them addressed before.

There are lots of ways to manipulate conversations, and I think you’ve hit one of the Real Biggies. Being the other person’s Thought Police. If I tell somebody their opinions are “judgmental” then I’m being judgmental and presumptuous AND prideful, and whether or not I am right, they are intended to attack another person in the name of having attacked another person.

Personally, I don’t know Bruce Jenner. I would never consider going transgender myself. I accept the way I was made and use it.

But once a young lady I really found very positive and almost-Christian and was a great wife and mother – but had several tattoos, talked on Facebook about a movie called “Modify” that she thought was really awesome. I think it was on Netflix, but I can’t find it now. It’s pretty intense, but I got amazing insights into human behavior from it.

The movie covered everything from simply wearing makeup and jewelry, to tattoos and piercings, to things that made transgender surgery seem “normal” by comparison. I’m talking where they do stuff like hold themselves up by a few meat hooks they have put through the skin on their backs. Here’s an article about such a thing:

Why Do People Want to Hang From Hooks Piercing Their Skin?

Others did things like have all their teeth removed so they could get teeth like lizards or other animals and creatures. And they pay dearly in terms of pain - tongue surgery is extremely painful.

Is the “lizard man” beautiful? Or did he destroy the temple God gave him? The “lizard man” and many of his admirers think the former. Who is to say that this guy didn’t see a few too many of the original Star Trek episodes when he was very young, or maybe in the womb… he’s not that much “strange” looking than some of the alien chicks Captain Kirk would hit on for love or strategy:

http://www.ripleys.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/123.jpg

So yeah, compared to this, the Caitlyn thing is totally under the radar!

The movie really got me to ask the question whether there was a “qualitative” difference between these different methods of modifying one’s own body. It’s kind of like porn, that surely exists but society has yet to find an adequate legal definition.

On the movie they actually showed transgender surgery going both directions. So it was pretty graphic.

You could say, “well I draw the line at ear lobe and maybe nose piercing – but on the side only not in the middle. Pierce the lips or the middle of the nose or the tongue and now it’s yucky and sinful and shows you have no respect for the body God gave you.”

Or you could say, "ok anything that involves surgery just for the sake of looks … " that gives another rabbit hole if you allow “repairs” but not “modifications”. What are repairs other than modifications? What if they aren’t functional but keep you from “looking like a freak” as in replacing an earlobe for a soldier who suffered a laceration which cut it off? Jesus performed reconstructive surgery. What if someone thinks they are using modification to make their image more beautiful like Michael Jackson? He did some weird stuff but who is to say he should not have been allowed to experiment with his face? What about breast implants either just because, or after one is removed due to cancer? Is that vanity? Is it evil? Is it making the body an animated lie to “pretend” she has breasts when she “really doesn’t”?

So what about Caitlyn? She can identify however she wants. Nearly everybody in civilized society know what the Christian Bible says that God made us man and woman, presumably for our whole lives. But even God has “other” categories – there are situations where hermaphrodite babies have both testicular and ovarian tissue, whether or not either or both are functional. Sometimes it’s up to the family whether to consider the child male or female, which the child may or may not identify with with it gets older.

So actually God does make them male, female, and “other” in real, physical life. There are “its” and “boths” so that means I can make all the absolutist statements I want about God and how He makes people, but they are only human ideas and we already know they are not sufficient to explain all that God does – or that other people that God made, do.

So did Bruce/Caitlyn sin? It makes zero difference to me. I plan to die as a cisgender, as I would advise to anybody who asks me or about whom I care. But if they want to go trans- then how does that hurt me? It doesn’t unless I judge it.

Someone has been drinking the secular Kool-aid. Lots of rationalization to explain away sin. This same logic could be applied to all sorts of other situations that we would both find reprehensible.

 

[Zachary]

Someone has been drinking the secular Kool-aid. Lots of rationalization to explain away sin. This same logic could be applied to all sorts of other situations that we would both find reprehensible.

Some people think they’re cats. Some skinny girls think they’re fat. Some boys think they’re girls.The problem is that the former 2 are not protected under the LGBTQLMNOP banner and, therefore, the thought police and agenda-based social justice warriors are ok with us not acknowledging that someone is really a cat.

 

[Thomas_Peter]

Most of you have heard about Bruce Jenner’s debut as Caitlyn Jenner. I was reading through the comments on some news articles on this issue. Some Christians commented and said that no matter what, Bruce will always be a man because God made him that way. I noticed that most of the comments in response to those comments basically stated, “Well, if you’re such a good Christian, then why are you judging?” None of the comments that tried to shine a biblical light on the issue came off as ignorant, but it is our Christian duty to warn our neighbors of their sins. Am I the only one that noticed this, or are those who side with the unpopular opinion considered “judgmental” all too often? Why is having a Bible-based opinion so bad? It seems that it is easy to brush someone off as judgmental if he or she does not agree with what he or she has to say.

I’ve stopped engaging people who lead with their feelings over their intellect. They throw that word “judgement” around whenever they feel their worldview challenged. This is because they cant intellectually defend their position so they resort to the ad hominem. They also have a tendency and need to change definitions of things to suit their worldview and their “feelings” on any given subject. Its like arguing with an overly emotional 4 year old…a waste of time.

 

[eightydeuce82]

I’ve stopped engaging people who lead with their feelings over their intellect. They throw that word “judgement” around whenever they feel their worldview challenged. This is because they cant intellectually defend their position so they resort to the ad hominem. They also have a tendency and need to change definitions of things to suit their worldview and their “feelings” on any given subject. Its like arguing with an overly emotional 4 year old…a waste of time.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

If people started to believe that the sun rose in the west and set in the east, would it be a judgement that they are wrong? NO! It is a fact. What happens here is that people want to make a judgement of you. They judge you as being judgemental. They use it to try to discredit you when in fact they discredit themselves as making a judgement that something that is a fact is in THEIR OPINION a judgement.

When you are judging human behavior it is the motive that is critical to make claims about the state of the heart.

Have you ever been labeled as severely mentally ill? If you have, you get to learn a lot about judgment. And it isn’t as much about people’s opinions of your behavior, but the fantastic motives they read into that behavior and the bizarre ways they end up behaving as a result. Being “crazy” for a while could have been my biggest blessing to open my eyes to this crazy world viewpoint that Jesus came to save us from.

Yes, if I say the suns rises in the west and sets in the east, then by generally accepted rhetorical conventions, specific definitions, and scientific and personal observations, all indications are that is backwards.

If you wish to say that “Caitlyn” is actually a mutilated man or a “simulated” woman, that’s fine with me. To say that he is a sinner because of it is not my job nor yours. We can say that we believe such action is wrong, but that doesn’t automagically make the other person a sinner. If we could make a “right judgment” about others based on their “outward behavior” then God could let us to do all the judging and not bother to do it Himself.

Here’s another of my little favorites: it is not true that “2 + 2” ALWAYS equals “4” even though most people think it is an immutable fact. Using grade school math, there are times when that isn’t precisely the case. (And I’m not talking about relativity, which could introduce a whole new wrinkle.) Some argue with me on philosophical basis and others just are resistant to math facts, but if you are working the problem in base 3, the answer is “11” or in base 4, the answer is “10”. You protest, “hey you didn’t say we were in any base other than 10”. Well yes, and when I judge others’ outward behavior I also am not privy to any mitigating facts pertinent to the person or situation.

Or maybe this is all made up. Either way, whatever you judge, controls you until your figure out how to let it go. Don’t let other people’s behavior control your mood, and your relationship with God. Jesus, and St. Francis, and other mystics, can see God in our worst enemies. Can you see God in Bruce Jenner? If you can’t, it’s your lack of connection with the divine not his/hers/whatever’s. Do we see sinful veneers of physical bodies covering the divine light? Sure – but it that’s all you see then it is all just a battle of pride and ego. I recommend you get the CD series by Father Barron on the Seven Deadly Sins and Lively Virtues, and especially notice how the sins of perverted love: pride, envy, and wrath, are at the basis of all pf the other sins. And it is here that we do our judging. Funny thing; if we weren’t so proud down at the base of Mount Purgatory, we wouldn’t even notice the weight of those with sins of “deficient” and “excessive” love (sloth, greed, gluttony, and lust) because we wouldn’t even be there.

Some sins are worse than others. Judging is one of the very worst, yet I can hardly get any Catholic to even try to imagine a world where we could pretend to take our savior at His word “do not judge”. Jesus may as well have saved His breath, for the amount of judging we do “in His name”. Who is the accuser? Hint: not Jesus. Who asked you or me to judge others? Hint: not Jesus.



Love, joy, peace,
MS

 

[schaeffer]

There are some people (and either they are getting more vocal or the percentage of them is growing) who think if you don’t pat them on the head and give them a cookie for everything they do that you are being judgmental and a “hater”.

We judge. All the time. So do they. Can’t help it. Can’t live without making judgment calls all the time about all kinds of stuff. And we have opinions. Same deal. Thing is…what do we do next? Action.

I judge a dress beautiful. Do I smile move on, save money so I can buy it, tell my boyfriend that I’d like him to buy it for me, or do I steal it.

I judge that a person on the bus smells like an unwashed body. Do I move quietly away, or start saying outloud “Hey, this guy stinks” and try to get everyone on the bus to chant “Go home stinky”.

A friend tells me they are going to sell their car, buy a moped and scooter to Alaska. I think that’s idiotic, do I tell them I think that is a really BAD idea and explain why…or do I throw them a “Yey for being unique” party and pretend I’m all for it.

There’s a time and a place for various reactions, and we JUDGE which is appropriate for each situation. People who scream “Don’t JUDGE me” every time they don’t get a cookie are going to have a very uncomfortable time in life…feeling very put upon and the victim of 99% of the people who don’t hand out those cookies, as well as having to stay at home in bed wrapped up in cotton wool, and have the same stuffed in their mouth so they don’t accidentally ‘judge’ someone or some thing.

And yup, we are getting judged too. Judge not lest you be judged. Yet most people fully expect “judgement day” to arrive. And most think that having a justice system is a good idea. We judge and know we are going to be judged and know we aren’t going to like that all of the time.

The Bruce Jenner thing has me stymied. I think it’s way weird. I think the 24/7 media coverage is weird. I think calling him a hero and brave for being who he is (?) is weird…at least on international media level. But I think that about most things printed in gossip mags. He’s doing what he does. yey for him.

As part of the Kardashian clan, I admit, there is a part of me that wonders if this is another publicity stunt, the way getting married and divorced and pregnant and remarried is a darned good way for a celebrity to stay on the covers of magazines and be deemed brave and tragic and heroic and important. I think a lot of that is cooked up.

I know people who are true hermaphrodites and the real life difficulties and sometimes tragedies that go along with that. I know people who’ve transgendered and heard their stories of struggle and mental anguish. It’s real. Just as the struggles of people born with any number of mental or physical challenges is.

People with male chromosomes are male. They may make life choices that make them appear to be female, and may choose to pose as a female. A person born missing a limb might get an artificial limb and appear to everyone around them as having four normal limbs, but they don’t. So what. Are we hating to recognize that one of their limbs is prosthetic?

If it wasn’t a big deal, if Caitlyn is really truly and actually a woman than why the hype? Why not just put the photo on the cover of Vanity Fair as the next attractive middle aged woman? Nope, they make a hoopla…BECAUSE …wait for it…Caitlyn is not truly and actually the girl next door. They go on and on and on about it…but if you acknowledge it your a judgmental hater!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I’ve stopped engaging people who lead with their feelings over their intellect. They throw that word “judgement” around whenever they feel their worldview challenged. This is because they cant intellectually defend their position so they resort to the ad hominem. They also have a tendency and need to change definitions of things to suit their worldview and their “feelings” on any given subject. Its like arguing with an overly emotional 4 year old…a waste of time.

I used to be totally unaware of others’ feelings, because somehow I was originally brought up in some fairy tale word where things were supposed to make sense. I got a rude awakening when I found that “others” with whom I have to work, do things that are stupd and make decisions that don’t help anybody including themselves. It’s scary because not knowing how “other people think” all I could do is see their behavior as arbitrary and even scary. So if you want to deal with people who think things should make sense, maybe you’ll follow me through one of the psycho routes like I did the “bipolar” one. It’s kid of like the Dark Night as written by St. John of the Cross which is beautiful once it’s over so it gets a bum rap by whiners with weak faith.

But I learned something about the age of 35, and it’s taken me 20 years now to reprogram my thinking to take it into account. It is this: “other” people (and you too probably more than you know yourself and your dark side enough to admit) are not motivated by information, they are motivated by emotions. If you don’t understand that then you will be socially inept.

What do you think Jesus was doing hanging around all the wackos? Don’t you think Bruce/Caitlyn would fit right into the kind of crowd he ate with? What was He doing, telling them all how terrible their sins were? He never did that when the Holy Spirit was recording it in Scripture.

 

[eightydeuce82]

I used to be totally unaware of others’ feelings, because somehow I was originally brought up in some fairy tale word where things were supposed to make sense. I got a rude awakening when I found that “others” with whom I have to work, do things that are stupd and make decisions that don’t help anybody including themselves. It’s scary because not knowing how “other people think” all I could do is see their behavior as arbitrary and even scary. So if you want to deal with people who think things should make sense, maybe you’ll follow me through one of the psycho routes like I did the “bipolar” one. It’s kid of like the Dark Night as written by St. John of the Cross which is beautiful once it’s over so it gets a bum rap by whiners with weak faith.

But I learned something about the age of 35, and it’s taken me 20 years now to reprogram my thinking to take it into account. It is this: “other” people (and you too probably more than you know yourself and your dark side enough to admit) are not motivated by information, they are motivated by emotions. If you don’t understand that then you will be socially inept.

What do you think Jesus was doing hanging around all the wackos? Don’t you think Bruce/Caitlyn would fit right into the kind of crowd he ate with? What was He doing, telling them all how terrible their sins were? He never did that when the Holy Spirit was recording it in Scripture.

His name is Bruce and he’s a man. Lets call it for what God made him…or we can pretend God made a mistake up to you:shrug:.

 

[Thomas_Peter]

I used to be totally unaware of others’ feelings, because somehow I was originally brought up in some fairy tale word where things were supposed to make sense. I got a rude awakening when I found that “others” with whom I have to work, do things that are stupd and make decisions that don’t help anybody including themselves. It’s scary because not knowing how “other people think” all I could do is see their behavior as arbitrary and even scary. So if you want to deal with people who think things should make sense, maybe you’ll follow me through one of the psycho routes like I did the “bipolar” one. It’s kid of like the Dark Night as written by St. John of the Cross which is beautiful once it’s over so it gets a bum rap by whiners with weak faith.

But I learned something about the age of 35, and it’s taken me 20 years now to reprogram my thinking to take it into account. It is this: “other” people (and you too probably more than you know yourself and your dark side enough to admit) are not motivated by information, they are motivated by emotions. If you don’t understand that then you will be socially inept.

What do you think Jesus was doing hanging around all the wackos? Don’t you think Bruce/Caitlyn would fit right into the kind of crowd he ate with? What was He doing, telling them all how terrible their sins were? He never did that when the Holy Spirit was recording it in Scripture.

No… I’m 46., I stopped being motivated by my emotions around the age of 26.Its called growing up and realizing that just because you may indulge in delusion doesn’t mean the world has to go with you to that irrational place. I lived with a manic depressive for over 20 years so I am well in tune with how dangerous thinking with ones emotions is. While Christ was accepting of the sinner doesn’t mean he thought the sin was ok. Have you forgotten what he said to the adulterous woman who was to be stoned?

 

[Took2Long]

Most of you have heard about Bruce Jenner’s debut as Caitlyn Jenner. I was reading through the comments on some news articles on this issue. Some Christians commented and said that no matter what, Bruce will always be a man because God made him that way. I noticed that most of the comments in response to those comments basically stated, “Well, if you’re such a good Christian, then why are you judging?” None of the comments that tried to shine a biblical light on the issue came off as ignorant, but it is our Christian duty to warn our neighbors of their sins. Am I the only one that noticed this, or are those who side with the unpopular opinion considered “judgmental” all too often? Why is having a Bible-based opinion so bad? It seems that it is easy to brush someone off as judgmental if he or she does not agree with what he or she has to say.

I like to confront those that admonish me for “judging” by reminding them that they fail to understand what the phrase means. There is no escape from judging the actions of others. I hold firmly to the belief that I am not to judge the state of anyone’s soul. Far be it from me to judge if someone is saved or not-that is far above my “pay grade.” But, as I said, we all judge the actions of others. Using your Bruce Jenner example-I judge his actions to be those of a mentally disturbed individual in need of my prayers. I stop far short of judging his soul or preparedness to inherit the Kingdom. That is for an all-loving God and Creator to decide. But those on the websites that call Bruce Jenner “bold” and “courageous” and being “true to himself” are also judging his actions. They just fail to see a judgment in the “affirmative” as a judgment. I say, if they are free to judge the actions of someone affirmatively, I should have the same right to respond to a situation as I see fit. Otherwise, it is just as someone else on this thread has already suggested, an attempt to shut down debate.

 

[Thomas_Peter]

I used to be totally unaware of others’ feelings, because somehow I was originally brought up in some fairy tale word where things were supposed to make sense. I got a rude awakening when I found that “others” with whom I have to work, do things that are stupd and make decisions that don’t help anybody including themselves. It’s scary because not knowing how “other people think” all I could do is see their behavior as arbitrary and even scary. So if you want to deal with people who think things should make sense, maybe you’ll follow me through one of the psycho routes like I did the “bipolar” one. It’s kid of like the Dark Night as written by St. John of the Cross which is beautiful once it’s over so it gets a bum rap by whiners with weak faith.

But I learned something about the age of 35, and it’s taken me 20 years now to reprogram my thinking to take it into account. It is this: “other” people (and you too probably more than you know yourself and your dark side enough to admit) are not motivated by information, they are motivated by emotions. If you don’t understand that then you will be socially inept.

What do you think Jesus was doing hanging around all the wackos? Don’t you think Bruce/Caitlyn would fit right into the kind of crowd he ate with? What was He doing, telling them all how terrible their sins were? He never did that when the Holy Spirit was recording it in Scripture.

Btw. I am very aware of other peoples “feelings” but your “feelings” aren’t who you are and by and large can be mistaken when used to make decisions in place of your intellect. This is a big problem not only in your generation but in the one after you as well. You lead with your feelings instead of your intellect.

 

[TARRAT]

When you are judging human behavior it is the motive that is critical to make claims about the state of the heart.

Have you ever been labeled as severely mentally ill? If you have, you get to learn a lot about judgment. And it isn’t as much about people’s opinions of your behavior, but the fantastic motives they read into that behavior and the bizarre ways they end up behaving as a result. Being “crazy” for a while could have been my biggest blessing to open my eyes to this crazy world viewpoint that Jesus came to save us from.

Yes, if I say the suns rises in the west and sets in the east, then by generally accepted rhetorical conventions, specific definitions, and scientific and personal observations, all indications are that is backwards.

If you wish to say that “Caitlyn” is actually a mutilated man or a “simulated” woman, that’s fine with me. To say that he is a sinner because of it is not my job nor yours. We can say that we believe such action is wrong, but that doesn’t automagically make the other person a sinner. If we could make a “right judgment” about others based on their “outward behavior” then God could let us to do all the judging and not bother to do it Himself.

Here’s another of my little favorites: it is not true that “2 + 2” ALWAYS equals “4” even though most people think it is an immutable fact. Using grade school math, there are times when that isn’t precisely the case. (And I’m not talking about relativity, which could introduce a whole new wrinkle.) Some argue with me on philosophical basis and others just are resistant to math facts, but if you are working the problem in base 3, the answer is “11” or in base 4, the answer is “10”. You protest, “hey you didn’t say we were in any base other than 10”. Well yes, and when I judge others’ outward behavior I also am not privy to any mitigating facts pertinent to the person or situation.

Or maybe this is all made up. Either way, whatever you judge, controls you until your figure out how to let it go. Don’t let other people’s behavior control your mood, and your relationship with God. Jesus, and St. Francis, and other mystics, can see God in our worst enemies. Can you see God in Bruce Jenner? If you can’t, it’s your lack of connection with the divine not his/hers/whatever’s. Do we see sinful veneers of physical bodies covering the divine light? Sure – but it that’s all you see then it is all just a battle of pride and ego. I recommend you get the CD series by Father Barron on the Seven Deadly Sins and Lively Virtues, and especially notice how the sins of perverted love: pride, envy, and wrath, are at the basis of all pf the other sins. And it is here that we do our judging. Funny thing; if we weren’t so proud down at the base of Mount Purgatory, we wouldn’t even notice the weight of those with sins of “deficient” and “excessive” love (sloth, greed, gluttony, and lust) because we wouldn’t even be there.

Some sins are worse than others. Judging is one of the very worst, yet I can hardly get any Catholic to even try to imagine a world where we could pretend to take our savior at His word “do not judge”. Jesus may as well have saved His breath, for the amount of judging we do “in His name”. Who is the accuser? Hint: not Jesus. Who asked you or me to judge others? Hint: not Jesus.

http://www.clockworksky.net/purgatory4.gif

Love, joy, peace,
MS

Do I misunderstand what you are saying? Or did you misunderstand what I said in my post? Sometimes it is hard to tell with the written word. I made my remarks based on the OP’s post.
I didn’t call anybody a sinner. I was addressing what some people were doing to attack well meaning people. Even in the original post nothing was said about Jenner being a sinner. I believe it was posed as Jenner would always be a man in God’s eyes. That doesn’t seem to be good or evil just a statement. And from what I understand Jenner hasn’t had any surgery beside breast implants. So…You seem to read something into what I wrote that I didn’t write. I apologize if I misunderstood what you wrote.

Once again my point is that …You make a statement, then somebody tries to discredit you by labeling you as judgemental, which in today’s society seems to have been raised to the level of being deserving of the death penalty.

God Bless and once again I apologize if I misunderstood you.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

His name is Bruce and he’s a man. Lets call it for what God made him…or we can pretend God made a mistake up to you:shrug:.

His name was Bruce. If he changes it legally, then you should call him by his legal name or you’re wrong. Either way if you call him what you wish, you are making things up. God did not make him “Bruce” so quit lying that he was “made” Bruce so you “must” call him that way. Did you examine the birth certificate? Did you inspire the parents to name him Bruce? Did you command them to? Did God give you a stone tablet telling you his name? How do you know his name isn’t really Stephen. Quit making foolish statements about things you don’t know unless you’ve done the research. Show me the birth certificate if you wish, but you’re still wrong the God made him “Bruce”.

Either that or to be consistent you’ll have to call every person by their birth certificate name… do not call them what they ask but do research and if they changed their name with marriage you must never call them by the new name either. This is the same logic by which you insist on calling Caitlyn, “Bruce”. Or just nostalgia. Or you are a narrow minded fool even when you are half right you must add in the other half too so your ego can “one-up” the truth like a fisherman tale about the one that got away.

You may consider him a man; I can certainly support that. Calling a person by any name other than what they request you to refer to them as is rude, period. :tsktsk:

Would you insist on calling someone Bartholomew, after they say “please call me Bart?” You should, if you are consistent and have reason to suspect that is their “real” name. Show everybody how smart you are that you know their name better than they do.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Do I misunderstand what you are saying? Or did you misunderstand what I said in my post? Sometimes it is hard to tell with the written word. I made my remarks based on the OP’s post.
I didn’t call anybody a sinner. I was addressing what some people were doing to attack well meaning people. Even in the original post nothing was said about Jenner being a sinner. I believe it was posed as Jenner would always be a man in God’s eyes. That doesn’t seem to be good or evil just a statement. And from what I understand Jenner hasn’t had any surgery beside breast implants. So…You seem to read something into what I wrote that I didn’t write. I apologize if I misunderstood what you wrote.

Once again my point is that …You make a statement, then somebody tries to discredit you by labeling you as judgemental, which in today’s society seems to have been raised to the level of being deserving of the death penalty.

God Bless and once again I apologize if I misunderstood you.

No, you are right that people label you as judgmental. I suppose I was responding to those who judge Bruce Jenner for having done so.

Plus I made the mistake of replying to a post before realizing there were others in between so now I should scroll up to see what relevance I may have missed.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Btw. I am very aware of other peoples “feelings” but your “feelings” aren’t who you are and by and large can be mistaken when used to make decisions in place of your intellect. This is a big problem not only in your generation but in the one after you as well. You lead with your feelings instead of your intellect.

You are wrong. If you had read my diatribe correctly, you would note that I was UNAWARE that people act with their feelings until I was in my 30’s – trying to adjust resulting in my becoming psychotic and locked up involuntarily the same day I was doing data entry for the synod, in the bishop’s office.

When I was little I was the logical whiz. I won the math contest in the archdiocese of Chicago, competing against 420 schools, in seventh grade. I won every math contest in high school every year, and in college I tested out of Calculus and of course aced Boolean Algebra instead. In addition to electrical engineering requirements (I hold MS in EE) I took additional statistical studies. I worked as an engineer in the 1980’s, building equipment that could cause bombs to accidentally drop out of B-52’s if I didn’t get every detail right or if it wouldn’t work under certain conditions of sand dust or salt spray, high vibration, etc. Or it would fail to dispense the chaff dispensers in Air Force 1 for its anti-radar tracking equipment. Don’t give me some condescending lecture about how “my generation” has no brain or that I “lead with my feelings.” You lead with your pride and condescension so how are you any better? How old are you, may I ask? Have you ever had to deal with problems other than #firstworldproblems in your life? Or you an older fart than me, who that thinks nobody else knows what you know? If you want to have an intellectual or ego battle, make sure you’re ready and bring it ON.

Advertisers know that. Banks know that. That’s why people overconsume and overspend and borrow beyond their means – they are lured into doing things that even with “information” that says they shouldn’t, they do. If you don’t understand that, then the forces who do will steer the masses their way while you stand their and pontificate about how they “should” act or feel.

You can go to a classroom and argue logic all you want. My son just got his degree in philosophy, from the seminary where just graduated so I have plenty of access to philosophy. If you want to go around ignoring people’s feelings and acting as if they don’t matter, I wish you well and may you never be called up to do a spiritual act or mercy. Because in a purely logical world, acts of mercy are not needed. Why should I comfort someone if the fact they are feeling badly doesn’t matter?

Quit trying to make human beings into something they aren’t, and maybe your life would find new meaning.

Or maybe you were agreeing with me and I just think you are saying that I “lead with my feelings.” Either way, it’s a fact of life that people have feelings and those feelings guide their behavior so either deal with that or you will be the one spitting into the wind your whole life.