Is the use of a radar detector morally justifiable?

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While I would love to agree with your assessment since I hate speed limits, I think the United States using the power of the power of federal funds in forcing Montana to implement a speed limit refutes this argument. Congress doesn’t get mony from Montana’s revenue from speeding tickets yet the forced them to implement one under penalty of reduced federal funding in the interest of highway safety.

Just because you take someone’s license away and even their car, does not mean they aren’t just going to buy another one and drive anyways. So ya, one can have 10 DUIS and still drive illegally. And yes they will be caught again for the umpteenth time. But as bad as this is, providing the person does not kill someone it just does not warrant more than a year or so in jail.
States being held hostage for federal funds is a fault of the state’s not insisting on maintaining state sovereignity. This also has nothing to do with municipal or state revenue generation.

Convicted feolos can be prevented from driving.Society has the means and technology to do so. It is not a priority. This is proof that the traffic code is not for public safety.

Besides, swine flu is much more dangerous than all of the drunk drivers.

Eddie Mac
 
Convicted feolos can be prevented from driving.Society has the means and technology to do so. It is not a priority. This is proof that the traffic code is not for public safety.
How would preventing convicted felons from driving be a matter of safety?

I think it would be important to consider the felony. Vehicular homicide, sure. But what about fraud, drug cases, etc. that does not involve driving? In this society most jobs require you to drive to/from them. I would think that it would be better to ensure that these people have a means of getting to jobs and their other obligations, instead of insisting they can’t drive.

It would be a poor form of punishment in my opinion because it would tend to further separate them from society to the point that I think it would increase the likelihood of further criminal activity.

I don’t want to sound soft on convicted felons, but it’s important to ensure that those who want to reform their lives be able to re-integrate into society as much as possible. In a driving society such as ours, most will need to drive to do so.

Unless the felony involves the use of a motor vehicle, I don’t see much to gain (and a lot to lose) from preventing driving. However, I would not have a problem with restrictions imposed on their driving privilege while on probation or parole in order to keep tabs on them and ensure that they don’t go to areas which might tempt them to criminal activity.
 
In other words, you refuse to accept the authority of the government as legitimite. The govenment can pass laws, but are not allowed to enforce said laws?
In the USA, it is not illegal to operate a radar detector for us ordinary drivers, except in two places: I think Virginia and DC. (It is illegal in all 50 states for truckers)

In Illinois, where I live, it is perfectly legal for me to use it. In fact, Illinois law forbids using the fact that I have a radar detector in the prosecution of tickets. If the cop brings it up in court, I have a legal objection and can get the ticket dismissed.

So no, I don’t “refuse the authority of the government”

However, I still maintain I have the moral right to know whether the government is monitoring me.
 
That reminds me of what a local politician once told me about police down here.

Years ago, they’d pull you over if you were speeding, no change from today.
Except, if you had money on you, you could pay your fine right then and there to the police officer, and be on your way. And because you paid it right when you got pulled over, nobody but you or the police officer knew about it. Perfectly legal, and it didn’t hurt your insurance or add any points to you license.

It was only if you didn’t have any money that they would go through with the official way, and write a ticket.
Yeah, I remember hearing about “administrative hearings” between the cop and driver, where you give him a small amount of money and the ticket goes away.

Some cops made nice money off of that.

OFFICIALLY: In Illinois, you can give the cop money ($75 to $100) and it will be treated as cash bail. You get the ticket and then you can get the money back (less a bail fee) if you win the ticket. It is not worth doing it now, due to the now stupid bail fee.
 
Feeling the need to monitor police on your own, without authority i must add, is in its vary nature exhibiting a fprm of paranoia towards those in legitimate society.
First of all, it is the police that are monitoring us with their radar guns.

Second, if police were not on quotas, they wouldn’t be writing so many tickets that wind up eventually getting thrown out.

Third, cities and towns pressure their police to behave like IRS agents - enforce the law, make money. Schaumburg is notorious for this, they actually arrested a lawyer for DUI who had a BAC of 0.00. He was not high, or drunk or drowsy. The city eventually settled out of court for a million dollars. Now, tell me why that cop did the DUI arrest? That’s right, the village wanted $$$MONEY$$$.

Fourth, police don’t seem to care about safety, but law enforcement.

This is not paranoia.

When police no longer care about people’s safety and only seem to care about raising money for the municipality, we are to realize them as the tax collectors they are.
 
Could you please state any actual reference to this? This reeks of conspiracy theory/paranoia to me. Speeding can be dangerous.
I agree.

However, owning a radar detector is not the same as speeding. Yes, many use them for that purpose. I don’t. And it is not illegal for me to own one where I live (and in 48 states)
Having a device that allows you to discriminately (according to whether it indicates there’s radar nearby) and potentially endanger someone else’s life (where the radar isn’t present), isn’t nice, moral, or necessary.
You assume that’s the only purpose of a radar detector. I don’t use it for that purpose.
Contrary to popular belief the police agency doesn’t necessarily pocket the money from your fines/tickets. The money is spread out throughout the community/government - not just police. Cops don’t get paid by the ticket they write - they get paid by the hours they work. Whether they write 10 tickets or none, solve a big crime or not, etc - they get paid. Just like me working in the crime lab. Whether we get a conviction or not, I get paid just exactly the same.
Correct. This is why towns and cities push the police to raise revenue. Police are a fixed cost. They need to make money off the police.
 
If a police officer calculates your speed by watching you drive past landmarks and recording your time doing it they are using an invisible monitoring technology.
In order for them to do so, they would need a large amount of distance. This is not something they could do hidden behind a bush or billboard as they do.
 
If you aren’t speeding, then what are you afraid of?
I agree.

If police hide behind billboards or bushes, what are they afraid of? Why won’t they show themselves in public while doing this monitoring?

Oh wait. You know the same standards don’t apply to the government that apply to us. We ordinary folks are evil while the government is holy. We are guilty until proven innocent remember 🙂
 
In order for them to do so, they would need a large amount of distance. This is not something they could do hidden behind a bush or billboard as they do.
All they need is 2 fixed points. All that they need to do is time how long it takes you to pass said points. If they know that x distance takes y seconds at maxim legal speed, they know that any faster warrants a ticket. One quick calculation will tell them exactly how fast you were travelling. Its pretty easy for anyone who has a grasp of basic algebra.
 
All they need is 2 fixed points. All that they need to do is time how long it takes you to pass said points. If they know that x distance takes y seconds at maxim legal speed, they know that any faster warrants a ticket. One quick calculation will tell them exactly how fast you were travelling. Its pretty easy for anyone who has a grasp of basic algebra.
Yes, it requires two points.

How far apart is the issue?

And do they need to hide behind billboards and bushes to do this? (But we police deserve privacy, not you regular people!)
 
Yes, it requires two points.

How far apart is the issue?

And do they need to hide behind billboards and bushes to do this? (But we police deserve privacy, not you regular people!)
Thoeretically, any distance would work. In practice, lets see, 60 mph = 1 mile/min =5280 ft/min = 88 fps. 1f the officer would find 2 points, say, 100 feet apart (not very far) would pass the 2nd point 1.14 seconds after passing the first. If the car takes less than 1.14 seconds by a significant amount, then they would be speeding. For example, if the car passed the second point in .8 seconds, that would translate to 125 fps=1.42 miles/min=85 mph. Of course this method would work best with officers working in tandem, and also only works, due to human error in the timing with people who are speeding significantly. Radar is much more effective.

As to the hiding befind bilboards, which i have never seen, and I used to have a job which included travel time, is no different than plain-clothes security in department stores to catch shoplifters. If it is differnt, then how? I can assure you everytime you go into a departemnt store, you are being monitored by people who look like other shoppers.
 
As to the hiding befind bilboards, which i have never seen, and I used to have a job which included travel time, is no different than plain-clothes security in department stores to catch shoplifters. If it is differnt, then how? I can assure you everytime you go into a departemnt store, you are being monitored by people who look like other shoppers.
apples and oranges.

government versus private persons

I’m going onto someone’s private property versus I’m out in the public

the government does it to generate revenue versus the private to protect themselves from thieves.
 
apples and oranges.

government versus private persons

I’m going onto someone’s private property versus I’m out in the public

the government does it to generate revenue versus the private to protect themselves from thieves.
They are the same. Both are methods used to stop people from breaking the law. I think what it comes down to, is that people are just refuse to submit to authority. You resent being told how fast you can drive. You can pretend that it is about “govermnet surveillance” but at the end of the day it is rebellion, pure and simple.
 
How would preventing convicted felons from driving be a matter of safety?

I think it would be important to consider the felony. Vehicular homicide, sure. But what about fraud, drug cases, etc. that does not involve driving? In this society most jobs require you to drive to/from them. I would think that it would be better to ensure that these people have a means of getting to jobs and their other obligations, instead of insisting they can’t drive.

It would be a poor form of punishment in my opinion because it would tend to further separate them from society to the point that I think it would increase the likelihood of further criminal activity.

I don’t want to sound soft on convicted felons, but it’s important to ensure that those who want to reform their lives be able to re-integrate into society as much as possible. In a driving society such as ours, most will need to drive to do so.

Unless the felony involves the use of a motor vehicle, I don’t see much to gain (and a lot to lose) from preventing driving. However, I would not have a problem with restrictions imposed on their driving privilege while on probation or parole in order to keep tabs on them and ensure that they don’t go to areas which might tempt them to criminal activity.
If you would read the past posts you would see that they were about those with multiple Driving Under the Influence convictions, not felons in general. Those who have shown the criminal want to drive while drunk/stoned/whatever can be prevented from driving for the most part. Nothing can be prevented 100% of the time.

This thread need not go into rehabilitating felons in general and that is not what my post was about.

Eddie Mac
 
They are the same.
No, they are not.
Both are methods used to stop people from breaking the law.
Genocide has been used as a method to stop people from breaking the law. I doubt you’d be promoting that. Governments have used lots of morally illict means to make sure people don’t break the law.

Ends do not justify the means.
I think what it comes down to, is that people are just refuse to submit to authority. You resent being told how fast you can drive. You can pretend that it is about “govermnet surveillance” but at the end of the day it is rebellion, pure and simple.
Ad hominem attack, based on no information that substantiates your claim. I don’t speed, I’ve always been the guy in the right lane doing the limit. I have no problem with reasonable speed limits. Most are.

Also, I am not advocating breaking the law nor am I doing anything illegal.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5185299&postcount=124
Have you not been reading my posts?

I have a clean driving record and don’t get tickets. I obey the law.

I’m not interested in committing idolatry of the police or the government.

It is interesting how you seem to assign evil intent to me but no evil intent toward the government and police who are being greedy? Have you not been reading my posts?
This is not charitable on your part.
 
No, they are not.

Genocide has been used as a method to stop people from breaking the law. I doubt you’d be promoting that. Governments have used lots of morally illict means to make sure people don’t break the law.

Ends do not justify the means.

Ad hominem attack, based on no information that substantiates your claim. I don’t speed, I’ve always been the guy in the right lane doing the limit. I have no problem with reasonable speed limits. Most are.

Also, I am not advocating breaking the law nor am I doing anything illegal.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5185299&postcount=124
Have you not been reading my posts?

I have a clean driving record and don’t get tickets. I obey the law.

I’m not interested in committing idolatry of the police or the government.

It is interesting how you seem to assign evil intent to me but no evil intent toward the government and police who are being greedy? Have you not been reading my posts?
This is not charitable on your part.
You accuse all police of being greedy. You seem to think Catholics have no responsibility to submit to legitimite authority. The radar detector was designed for one use and one use alone: to enable people to break the law. If submission to legitimite authority is “idolatry” then you have a misunderstanding of idolatry. I do not worship the government, I give it the respect and submission it is due. There are no unjust speeding laws. Please explain how they are unjust. A police officer monitoring traffic is in no way a violation of anyones rights. I am sick of the rediculous complex people have that “freedom” means being able to do whatever you want, and no one can say anything about it. I again assert that if you do not speed, as you suggest, but I do not believe, then you have no need for a device designed to assist in circumvebting the law. Furthermore by contesting that policwe have no right to survaillance, but privat individuals do makes no sense. You are giving individuals more authority than the government to which you are to submit. Police use of radar is not a violation of probable cause. If you are driving, there is reason to believe you might be speeding, as most motorists do from time to time.
 
Plain and simple I have a right to know if and by whoem I’m being watched by, if I’m not committing a crime. Speeding is a civil infraction not a crime. If I so want to exercise that right , I get to how I see fit. It doesn’t matter what reason I may want to exercise that right. If I want tp partkae of it it’s my perogative.
 
Plain and simple I have a right to know if and by whoem I’m being watched by, if I’m not committing a crime. Speeding is a civil infraction not a crime. If I so want to exercise that right , I get to how I see fit. It doesn’t matter what reason I may want to exercise that right. If I want tp partkae of it it’s my perogative.
I am pretty sure that anything against the law is a crime. I mean job applications ask something like “Have you ever been convicted of a crime. other that minor traffic violations?” If minor traffic violations were not a crime, they would not need to be excluded. THe excuses for disobedience to legitimate authority boggle my mind…
 
Plain and simple I have a right to know if and by whoem I’m being watched by, if I’m not committing a crime. Speeding is a civil infraction not a crime. If I so want to exercise that right , I get to how I see fit. It doesn’t matter what reason I may want to exercise that right. If I want tp partkae of it it’s my perogative.
Speeding is technically a crime. Something is a crime if its illegal. Since speeding is illegal, its a crime.

You may want to exercise your ‘right’ to know if you’re being monitored, but wouldn’t it work just as well to be observant & ‘see’ the cops instead of having a machine tell you they’re there? I’m all for civil/personal rights, but I just don’t see the need for a radar detector for any purpose. The one described that alerts for all emergency vehicles sounds nice, but again I think paying attention while driving (for visual & auditory signals) is the best way to acheive this.

I also don’t understand the gripe about police officers using a traffic stop to check for other illegal activities. Again, if you have nothing to hide, why worry? I’d gladly let them search my vehicle if I were pulled over for speeding & they thought they needed to. I also know to refrain from leaning across the car to get into the glove box w/o warning them first. They have to be sure they are safe. Their job is to keep society safe, but there are some precautions they take for their own safety as well. I would also gladly perform (and probably promptly fail) field sobriety tests. However, I know once everything was straightened out I’d be fine (no drinking & driving for this gal) and that the officer was doing his best to ensure public safety. That’s not to say I wouldn’t probably be somewhat aggravated at having my time taken, etc. However, when I weigh my lost time w/ safety of others, I have to go w/ wasting my time in the hopes that society is safer. Who knows how many times these annoying stops actually lead to good for society - or even for an individual. It makes me think of the stories of some of the people who were supposed to be in the Twin Towers prior to 9/11, but got held up by various means. There is a reason for everything. Sometimes we may not understand it, but its there.
 
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