Is the use of the cross in this Islamic advertisement offensive to you?

[Bluegoat]

Where do you get this idea from? Certainly not from my posts in this thread (#2 and #108), where I express what my actual view is.

The content of Islamic disagreements with Christianity is essentially a non-issue to me. Muhammad and company simply do not factor into my theology, Again, what offends me is Islam’s absolute inability to define and defend itself and its doctrines without revision, denigration, and ultimately suppression or elimination of not only the religions that came before it, but of all of history itself. The historical revisionism that Islam is built upon ought to be incredibly offensive to anyone, regardless of their particular view on the divinity of Christ or His crucifixion. As it robs the Christians of Jesus, so too it robs the Jews of Moses, but more disturbingly, more deeply it robs the world of a shared history built on common recognition of what reality itself is. Inconvenient realities are simply rewritten so as to give Islam a squeaky clean image and make any troubles the result of foreign/western meddling. There are no Assyrians, only “Kurdish Christians” (itself a term that came about through foreign misunderstandings, but you can bet I’ve seen Kurdish Muslims use it to denigrate Christian Assyrians) who are darn lucky to have such merciful and benevolent Muslim leaders watching over there with only the purest of intentions. The Muslims have remade the entire world and all of its ideas and figures in their own image, and for what? For the sake of their ******** religion and its deluded founder on whose edicts their horribly repressive societies are founded.

Enough. Khalas. If disagreements existed in a vacuum wherein Islam could disagree peacefully on any given point with Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, you might have a point in claiming that there’s reason to be offended by Muslim views, but in the real world that is simply not what we see. We don’t see that because Islam has never suffered that its followers should be without their divine right to rule over others. No, instead “al-awal al-sebt, b’ada thallek al-ahad” (“First Saturday, then Sunday”) is the more consistent pattern. And all because Islam needs to assert its version of reality over all others.

The kind of disagreement that you are championing is not one that I have any problem with. Unfortunately, its also not one that Islam and its followers are ultimately interested in having for any longer than is absolutely necessary.

I don’t say I would disagree with your ultimate view of Islam - I don’t find it historically very convincing, nor theologically. I am hesitant about saying its idea of government and its place in society is as necessary to it as you suggest, for a few reasons. (Though I should say this seems to be what we see in modern times in Islamic countries.) But I would say the majority of North American Muslims do not feel that way - most would not want to live in many of the modern Islamic countries, especially if you look at those who were raised in the West, But more than that, historically Islam has not at all times been as fundamentalist as it seems to be at the moment (and alternately Christianity has also had periods where its relationship to government and religious freedom etc were not something I would want to have anything to do with.) So my historical sense and my observation of Muslims I know makes me disinclined to think this viewpoint is inseparable with Islam.

I’m also not inclined to be too superior about its intellectual heritage. I don’t find it convincing. But the Muslims I know are perfectly intelligent people. When I was a student reading St Thomas I also read some Ibn Rushd, as well as a little Ibn Sīnā. I’ve read some Sufi literature. There is no doubt in my mind those men were much smarter than I, and St Thomas was an admirer of Ibn Rushd. All of which makes me think there is some serious intellectual content there.

Mostly I think we should treat people the way we would like them to treat us. And if they would not treat us well? too bad for us, but I am not basing my morality on other people’s immorality. Christianity won’t win out against fundamentalist Islam by becoming a fundamentalist religion itself.

 

[Bluegoat]

It’s one thing to say it’s inevitable for humans to sin (i.e., impossible to follow the Law “perfectly”) but quite another to disregard its importance.

In Islam, the faith and the works are intertwined and increase each other. More faith inspires one to do more works. And also, doing more works will increase a person’s faith. For example, fasting in Ramadan. Muslim increase their charity, reading scripture, and prayer in addition to fasting, and consequently observe an increase in their faith, which inspires them to do even more good deeds after Ramadan is over.

But if a person leaves an action–like prayer–then his faith is going to suffer.

It doesn’t mean Muslims are working for their salvation, but doing righteousness is part of their belief, part of the whole package of salvation.

I’d say this is very close to if not identical to the non-Protestant Christian position, and a lot of Protestants might buy into it as well.

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t say I would disagree with your ultimate view of Islam - I don’t find it historically very convincing, nor theologically. I am hesitant about saying its idea of government and its place in society is as necessary to it as you suggest, for a few reasons. (Though I should say this seems to be what we see in modern times in Islamic countries.) But I would say the majority of North American Muslims do not feel that way - most would not want to live in many of the modern Islamic countries, especially if you look at those who were raised in the West, But more than that, historically Islam has not at all times been as fundamentalist as it seems to be at the moment (and alternately Christianity has also had periods where its relationship to government and religious freedom etc were not something I would want to have anything to do with.) So my historical sense and my observation of Muslims I know makes me disinclined to think this viewpoint is inseparable with Islam.

I’m also not inclined to be too superior about its intellectual heritage. I don’t find it convincing. But the Muslims I know are perfectly intelligent people. When I was a student reading St Thomas I also read some Ibn Rushd, as well as a little Ibn Sīnā. I’ve read some Sufi literature. There is no doubt in my mind those men were much smarter than I, and St Thomas was an admirer of Ibn Rushd. All of which makes me think there is some serious intellectual content there.

Mostly I think we should treat people the way we would like them to treat us. And if they would not treat us well? too bad for us, but I am not basing my morality on other people’s immorality. Christianity won’t win out against fundamentalist Islam by becoming a fundamentalist religion itself.

By your reply, Bluegoat, it would seem that you are conflating several things that I keep separate. Neither Aquinas’ or Rushd’s ideas, regardless of their philosophical brilliance, are ultimately very helpful to me spiritually, and either way the religious identities of these men are anyway of no consequence. A great many brilliant men have overreached in mixing various disciplines with religion, and although the result may be fascinating in a sociological or socio-historical way, when dealing with Islam’s relationship to Christianity I much prefer the “fundamentalism” of St. John Damascene to any thinker who might syncretize such fundamentally disparate ideas into a composite whole either in the supposed service of Christianity or of Islam. It is something that I have been arguing I suppose literally for years on this board: There is nothing at all in Islam, whether we are talking about its spiritual ideas or its philosophers, that outdoes or is in any way even favorably comparable to what we already have at our disposal thanks to the Holy Spirit-guided wisdom of the saints.I suspect that you or others might find such a statement quite intolerant or provincial. After all, who can deny the beauty of Rumi, or the brilliance of Avicenna? Certainly not I, and I wouldn’t try to. My position is merely that just as we may recognize a great deal of beauty and brilliance in many non-Christian arts, we must so too recognize that they are just the same not compatible with our faith. I am not aware if you embrace the RC view that Muslims worship the same God as Christians, but as I myself do not embrace that view I see no conflict or even mean-spiritedness in stating that, just as I suspect a Muslim would also insist that we are committing “shirk” by worship Jesus Christ as God because that is their understanding of the meaning of that act.

So we come full circle. Muslims can believe whatever they want and state whatever they want, but I think it is extremely unwise for those professing Christianity to approach Islam as though we are on an equal plane. To not do so is not at all to violate the golden rule – we are indeed to treat Muslims with the utmost respect as fellow creations of God, as we would like to be treated. Islam, however, is not a person and cannot be reasoned with. It only seeks that we assent to it, one way or another.

 

[KathleenGee]

Understand…but where I am coming from Catholics have been too passive in allowing various other denominations to say or spread things against our religion…you see Muslims protesting offenses against Mohammed, and when those deny the Crucifixion of Christ in a certain way, it does offend me and so I said it.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Understand…but where I am coming from Catholics have been too passive in allowing various other denominations to say or spread things against our religion…you see Muslims protesting offenses against Mohammed, and when those deny the Crucifixion of Christ in a certain way, it does offend me and so I said it.

At first glance the poster isn’t offensive where one sees the cross and immediately thinks about Jesus Christ but then the seminar it advertising has nothing to do with the truth of Jesus, or learning about the true meaning of the cross, but it has everything to do with Abdul Raheem Green proselytizing, so it seems that ad is a classic example of bait and switch. The ad/poster does not offend with me personally but I can see where it leads to, to a message that offends the truth and the image of Jesus Christ in the world.

 

[MartinJordan]

At first glance the poster isn’t offensive where one sees the cross and immediately thinks about Jesus Christ but then the seminar it advertising has nothing to do with the truth of Jesus, or learning about the true meaning of the cross, but it has everything to do with Abdul Raheem Green proselytizing, so it seems that ad is a classic example of bait and switch. The ad/poster does not offend with me personally but I can see where it leads to, to a message that offends the truth and the image of Jesus Christ in the world.

Agreed. But I’ll keep my full personal feelings about this Green character to myself knowing now from which background he so called came from.

Oh and I can’t wait for His Holiness’ Benedicts book on Jesus of Nazareth to come out. It’ll make Green look…well “green”.

MJ

 

[agent_grey]

since when did the cross become of value? Seriously!

Jesus was going to die at 120yrs or by some freak accident along the way.

Do muslims believe jesus sinned? Do muslims believe Jesus was less than perfect?

 

[dd964vet]

“if one is not looking for offense…one usually won’t find it.”

Sage words indeed!

 

[Jehoshua]

Your questions sound sort of dysfunctional to me and betray either ignorance or a deliberate attempt to offend, hopefully the former.

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Since when did the cross come of value, seriously…

The cross like any symbol is nothing in an of itself but the idea that it represents means that it gains a meaning entirely seperate to the physical reality of the image in that the ideology and spiritual ideals it represents are made manifest in the human mind by a representative image. So like how one associates a company with an iconic brand image (like the coca-cola symbol) christianity and all its ideas are given a tangible symbol in the cross and therefore disrespectful acts towards that symbol are offensive to many christians because disrespect to the image is rightfully construed as disrespect to the fundamental beliefs behind that image .

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Jesus going to die at 120 or have some freak accident…

Honestly you just ooze ignorance from that statement, you as a supposedly orthodoc Catholic Christian (pre-supposing your not trolling) you should be aware that christians Jesus was God the Son made manifest into the world as a man, for the express purpose of enabling OUR salvation. Your statement seems to suggest that he was just some random guy who came along, had some nice ideas and then got unfortunately crucified for no abject reason. This statement is showing an ignorance about the purpose of christs incarnation in this world and his general nature as fundamental person in the trinity entirely pre-existent to his earthly incarnation as the son of God.

I would advise you to elucidate your statements in an informed and perhaps more polite and respectful manner, considering this is a religious forum and out of respect for peoples beliefs in general.

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Muslims believe Jesus was just another prophet and therefore was only human therefore by default he sinned and was less than perfect in the islamic view as only God can be perfect.

 

[Bluegoat]

By your reply, Bluegoat, it would seem that you are conflating several things that I keep separate. Neither Aquinas’ or Rushd’s ideas, regardless of their philosophical brilliance, are ultimately very helpful to me spiritually, and either way the religious identities of these men are anyway of no consequence. A great many brilliant men have overreached in mixing various disciplines with religion, and although the result may be fascinating in a sociological or socio-historical way, when dealing with Islam’s relationship to Christianity I much prefer the “fundamentalism” of St. John Damascene to any thinker who might syncretize such fundamentally disparate ideas into a composite whole either in the supposed service of Christianity or of Islam. It is something that I have been arguing I suppose literally for years on this board: There is nothing at all in Islam, whether we are talking about its spiritual ideas or its philosophers, that outdoes or is in any way even favorably comparable to what we already have at our disposal thanks to the Holy Spirit-guided wisdom of the saints.I suspect that you or others might find such a statement quite intolerant or provincial. After all, who can deny the beauty of Rumi, or the brilliance of Avicenna? Certainly not I, and I wouldn’t try to. My position is merely that just as we may recognize a great deal of beauty and brilliance in many non-Christian arts, we must so too recognize that they are just the same not compatible with our faith. I am not aware if you embrace the RC view that Muslims worship the same God as Christians, but as I myself do not embrace that view I see no conflict or even mean-spiritedness in stating that, just as I suspect a Muslim would also insist that we are committing “shirk” by worship Jesus Christ as God because that is their understanding of the meaning of that act.

So we come full circle. Muslims can believe whatever they want and state whatever they want, but I think it is extremely unwise for those professing Christianity to approach Islam as though we are on an equal plane. To not do so is not at all to violate the golden rule – we are indeed to treat Muslims with the utmost respect as fellow creations of God, as we would like to be treated. Islam, however, is not a person and cannot be reasoned with. It only seeks that we assent to it, one way or another.

I was assuming you are Catholic - it seems perhaps not?

In any case - it really seems to me that you have missed my point, which was about intellectual humility as individuals, and about treating others as one would like to be treated. Muslims are people. The greatest atrocities we as humans have committed are when we denigrate the individual and see them only as cogs in a greater cause - whether that is a religious cause, communism, etc. We deal with people, not causes. That is also, IMO, the Catholic position, and one which I have seen them uphold admirably in their treatment of people worldwide in my lifetime. You won’t overcome Islam by becoming the same kind of thing, as tempting as that may be.

 

[KathleenGee]

The advertisement displays a setting that is false to the reality of the historical. Visuals with texts provide the most powerful means in communicating a belief or concept.

Without Christ’s crucifixion – witnessed by many people and verified under the governance of Pontius Pilate – this whole world would not be what it is. So just the symbolism of the ad caused me some offense and grief, and more so because it is a form of preventing many from coming into the life of Christ.

Jesus said the good we do, we do only before the Father…there is always the danger of Phariseeism of wearing one’s religion on their sleeve, for the world to see…we as individuals live out our faith only before the Lord to see…virtue tends to hide itself and pride openly promote itself.

The Catholic Church in serving Christ in all people, started hospitals, hospice, provided education for the general populace up to university level…this is also the case in Mexico where women and girls were given a right to an education hundreds of years before Protestant America did for us. Mexico was indeed the center for learning in the New World…just the other day we celebrated the feastday and great event of Mary of Guadalupe. Muslims should study her…she came dressed as a Palestinian, but she wore the Aztec black belt signifying she was pregnant with Jesus.

Beautiful story—roses in December.

Jesus said in Luke that we are to do penance for the remission of our sins, or else we will parish…we must deny ourselves daily and follow Him. Ours is not a religion of the Book or being saved…but entering into the life of Christ through baptism and the sacraments that join us to sanctifying grace and the Divine Life with Christ already here and present.

This would not be possible without Christ’s crucifixion.

People need to understand Dzhereimi as an Assyrian Catholic…what history his culture must have…they are now being decimated at present by Islamic terrorists and radical fundamentalists in Baghdad. There is a story on Catholiconline.com about the 3 year old Christian boy who followed the terrorists for several hours. His parents had been shot and killed. He kept shouting at the terrorists, ‘Enough, enough!’…until they shot him dead…our CAF member is a linguist. I studied a quarter in Graduate School of Linguistics…so have some familiarity with the depth of education he has, as well as his own sentiments of heart seeing his people suffer so much in Iraq.

His suffering is no different than those in Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and other places …

So when I see this ongoing flaw of Islam … it is ongoing, every year, for 1400 years by those who hate Christianity within it, the anger that comes out when trying to dialogue or address inconsistencies…the best Muslims can do is to withdraw from hatred and pride, and coldness of heart towards Christians.

I read about the different versions of Islam, but tend to see the Sunni as the orthodox because Mohammed came from there and it contains there its holy sites.

I also know that there are many Muslims in the world coming to Christ but cannot reveal themselves for fear of death by even members of their own family.

But the bottom line on tolerance is different from person to person…

An Assyrian or Orthodox Christian or those other Christians whose countries were overtaken by militant Islam that involved human slaughter and plundering using God’s name have a different sensitivity in contrast to those whose countries had no loss of blood suffered by members of Islam.

I empathize with them. And so now in this context, a little cross – not the standard the Romans used for crucifixion…placed out in an empty desert…and finding out 270 million people have been killed in the name of Islam…now I do take offense. I forgive…but in my heart and spirit, such displays are also arrogant and ignorant.

 

[dzheremi]

In any case - it really seems to me that you have missed my point, which was about intellectual humility as individuals, and about treating others as one would like to be treated. Muslims are people.

You likewise seem to have missed the portion of the post you quoted where I wrote “we are indeed to treat Muslims with the utmost respect as fellow creations of God, as we would like to be treated.” I believe it. In all my interactions with Muslims in my day-to-day life, I practice it. By and large, we don’t talk religion as we do here on CAF. It’s the old-style “No religion or politics at the dinner table” that helps make the world go 'round.

The greatest atrocities we as humans have committed are when we denigrate the individual and see them only as cogs in a greater cause - whether that is a religious cause, communism, etc.

Yes indeed. So it was evil when they put us into millet. :sad_yes:

We deal with people, not causes. That is also, IMO, the Catholic position, and one which I have seen them uphold admirably in their treatment of people worldwide in my lifetime.

It’s funny…it was a Maronite Catholic poster in Lebanon here on CAF who put it as succinctly as I can, in a way that has stayed with me ever since: Islam is not your kind neighbor who doesn’t know how to use a gun. And the Maronites would certainly know. So what’s all this about “the Catholic position”…?

You won’t overcome Islam by becoming the same kind of thing, as tempting as that may be.

You are projecting onto my ideas a mindset that I do not have. I am not looking to “overcome” anything. It is my priority to preserve the sanctity of the faith over and against the objections and distortions of the Christ-deniers and their useful idiots, whether we are talking about Islam, aggressively anti-Christian “humanists”, henotheist heretics, etc. “And every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (1 John 4:3)

 

[KathleenGee]

In the USA, I think Christianity appears more often branded as intolerant or closed minded and bigoted than any other creed.

 

[Bezant]

I’m not offended; in fact, I think his advert choice was a compromise.

Muslims may deny the Crucifixtion on a Quranic basis, therefore an empty cross; but we believe that on the third day there was a Resurrection, hence an empty cross can symbolise It.

 

[KathleenGee]

As long as the symbol of the cross of Christ has its observing crowd and the size to fit a man.

 

[Jehoshua]

Context is everything, the very context of the empty cross in this case, and the image itself which perhaps has the suggestion of a grave (odd since in Islam Jesus was assumed into heaven) could be construed as offensive due to the disrespect it implies towards the cross and by proxy of the symbolic image of the cross christianity and all its beliefs as well.

All i think can be derived from the choice of the advert is that Islam always seems to have to attempt to put down another religion (usually Christianity) to try and prop up its own claims, which honestly are rather flimsy (im right because the Quran’s right fallacy) especially considering the contradictions in the book and vast differences in manner beween Muhammad and his teachings and ALL prior jewish or christian thought, not to mention the manner of muslim culture in regards to others. (im afraid its the only religion where next to all areas where its dominant where conquered in the name of the faith)

So i do not really see the choice of image as a compromise rather than yet another example of the muslim mentality made manifest in their arrogance and pride and the physical ramifications of that in the world today.

 

[KathleenGee]

(I read an article written by well educated Muslims in Lebanon…on why Islam does not confront Russia or China in the same way as Western countries??? They said it is probably because these other countries, with their own history of fratricidal pogroms would not be tolerant and turn the other cheek like we do here. They said there are those in the Far East that would go after the people responsible, go after their families and stay on it several generations so they leave them and their lands alone.)

True religion doesn’t need to close its mind towards history. A strong and benevolent faith does not put down other people’s faith or misrepresent them.

Cultural misrepresentation is a part of human existence. CAF should be a place where false impressions of each other are disposed of, and that we grow in mutual respect…and work to turn back any offenses our belief systems have committed against other people.

 

[century153]

It’s one thing to say it’s inevitable for humans to sin (i.e., impossible to follow the Law “perfectly”) but quite another to disregard its importance.

In Islam, the faith and the works are intertwined and increase each other. More faith inspires one to do more works. And also, doing more works will increase a person’s faith. For example, fasting in Ramadan. Muslim increase their charity, reading scripture, and prayer in addition to fasting, and consequently observe an increase in their faith, which inspires them to do even more good deeds after Ramadan is over.

But if a person leaves an action–like prayer–then his faith is going to suffer.

It doesn’t mean Muslims are working for their salvation, but doing righteousness is part of their belief, part of the whole package of salvation.

Bluegoat is right Sister Amy – this is the Catholic way. So, what is it that keeps Muslims from taking the next step and acce pting salvation by the blood of Jesus. After all, you do believe in atonement sacrifice…no?

 

[century153]

At first glance the poster isn’t offensive where one sees the cross and immediately thinks about Jesus Christ but then the seminar it advertising has nothing to do with the truth of Jesus, or learning about the true meaning of the cross, but it has everything to do with Abdul Raheem Green proselytizing, so it seems that ad is a classic example of bait and switch. The ad/poster does not offend with me personally but I can see where it leads to, to a message that offends the truth and the image of Jesus Christ in the world.

This is the way I see it – if this ad was put out in the US, this is a free country not under sharia law and we have freedom of speech. He has every right to speak his mind to whomever wishes to listen. As far as I am concerned I am not in the least bit worried that he may convince others that Jesus never died on the cross. Jesus told Peter “on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” Therefore I believe the Lord Himself will guard and protect His church and He will prove that God is Truth and every man a liar. :knight2:

 

[century153]

since when did the cross become of value? Seriously!

Jesus was going to die at 120yrs or by some freak accident along the way.

Do muslims believe jesus sinned? Do muslims believe Jesus was less than perfect?

:doh2: You hit the nail on the head!! No pun intended.

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

For if the cross had no value, then why would anyone want to prove it unworthy. No I say, this is definitely the work of Satan, for without the cross there is no salvation.