Is the vatican 2 inerrancy qualification necessary?

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Chrysostom tells us:

“Yet surely, if you are willing to believe what is evident, the things invisible ought to be believed by you, rather than those which are seen. Even though what I say be a paradox, nevertheless it is true, and among men of understanding is fully acknowledged. For whereas the eyes are often deceived, not in the things unseen only (for of those they do not so much as take cognizance), but even in those which men think they actually see, distance and atmosphere, and absence of mind, and anger, and care, and ten thousand other things impeding their accuracy; the reasoning power of the soul on the other hand, if it receive the light of the divine Scriptures, will prove a more accurate, an unerring standard of realities” (Homily 13 on Matthew).

And

Let us then in everything believe God, and gainsay Him in nothing, though what is said seem to be contrary to our thoughts and senses, but let His word be of higher authority than both reasonings and sight… For His word cannot deceive, but our senses are easily beguiled. That has never failed, but this in most things goes wrong” (Homily 82 on Matthew).

These are clear affirmations of total inerrancy. 🙂

Saint John Chrysostom, The Doctor of Preachers (A.D. 395): “‘Which is not another Gospel’ (Galatians 1:7).

“And justly, for there is not another. Nevertheless the Marcionites are misled by this phrase, as diseased persons are injured even by healthy food, for they have seized upon it, and exclaim, ‘So Paul himself has declared there is no other Gospel.’ For they do not allow all the Evangelists, but one only, and him mutilated and confused according to their pleasure. Their explanation of the words, ‘according to my Gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ’ (Romans 16:25), is sufficiently ridiculous; nevertheless, for the sake of those who are easily seduced, it is necessary to refute it. We assert, therefore, that, although a thousand Gospels were written, if the contents of all were the same, they would still be one, and their unity no wise infringed by the number of writers. So, on the other hand, if there were one writer only, but he were to contradict himself, the unity of the things written would be destroyed. For the oneness of a work depends not on the number of its authors, but on the agreement or contradictoriness of its contents. Whence it is clear that the four Gospels are one Gospel; for, as the four say the same thing, its oneness is preserved by the harmony of the contents, and not impaired by the difference of persons. And Paul is not now speaking of the number but of the discrepancy of the things spoken. With justice might they lay hold of this expression, if the Gospels of Matthew and Luke differed in the signification of their contents, and in their doctrinal accuracy; but as they are one and the same, let them cease being senseless and pretending to be ignorant of these things which are plain to the very children” (Commentary on Galatians 1:7).

Again, Chrysostom asserts that there is no contradiction in the Gospels and that there is no difference in the signification of their contents. He provides many examples of this, such as where he writes,

“He withdraws the choir of His disciples, and makes His discourse unto them: in His conversation with them providing that the rest also, who were yet very far from the level of His sayings, might find His lesson of self-denial no longer grievous unto them. Of which indeed both Luke gave intimation, when he said, that He directed His words unto them: and Matthew too, clearly declaring the same, wrote, ‘His disciples came unto Him, and He taught them’” (Homily 15 on Matthew).

Different words, but the same signification. Again, putting all of this together, this is in exact conformance with what the Church teaches:

The truth of the Gospel account is not compromised because the Evangelists report the Lord’s words and deeds in different order. Nor is it hurt because they report His words, not literally but in a variety of ways, while retaining the same meaning… The exegete… should never forget that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit when they preached the good news; that the Gospels were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who preserved their authors from every error” (The Historicity of the Gospels).
 
All your quotes where John says God would speak through various profits and made a covenant with the Jews in no way implies extreme inerrancy. The Second vatican affirmed that the scriptures are free from error as it pertains to our salvation. I would agree none of the fathers dispute that. Nor would that dispute that God inspired the scriptures. John though does think there is disagreement in the gospel writers on matters that don’t effect our salvation.

I have several other points to make based on what you posted but no time now.
Actually, inspiration not only implies extreme inerrancy, it necessitates it. The teaching concerning “the absence of error in the inspired sacred texts” is a dogma of the faith (cf. Post 189); Vatican II did not define any dogmas (cf. Address of Pope Paul VI During the Last General Meeting of the Second Vatican Council & Cardinal Ratzinger’s 1988 Remarks to the Bishops of Chile); and once a dogma has been defined it is irreformable (cf. Vatican I). Since the dogma was defined before Vatican II, it had already received its irreformable definition prior to the Council. And that inspiration necessitates inerrancy is what the Popes have told us the declarations of inspiration at Trent and Vatican I mean. Trent said that “God is the author of both” the New Testament and the Old Testament and the anathemas from both councils essentially say the same thing:

“These books the church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the church…

“If anyone does not receive as sacred and canonical the complete books of sacred scripture with all their parts, as the holy council of Trent listed them, or denies that they were divinely inspired : let him be anathema” (Vatican I).

Where is the anathema against denying inerrancy? What makes inerrancy a dogma? This is it! 🙂 To be inspired, as Thomas Aquinas put it, is to be inerrant:

The author of Holy Writ is God …] it is plain that nothing false can ever underlie the literal sense of Holy Writ” (, Part 1, Question 1, Article 10, “I answer that…” & “Reply to Objection 3”Summa Theologica).

This is why the Pontifical Biblical Commission, in 1934, condemned the writings of a Catholic author who “introduce[d] a type of literature consisting of popular traditions mingling falsehood with truth,” because by doing so, he, “consequently, at least implicitly, denie[d] the dogma [singular] of biblical inspiration and inerrancy” (The replies of the Pontifical Biblical Commission). Inspiration and inerrancy are concomitant and wrapped up in a single article of the faith: “He has spoken through the prophets.” To be inerrant does not entail inspiration, but inspiration entails inerrancy.

Referring to the definition given at Vatican I, Pius XII explained,

When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the “entire books with all their parts” as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever, ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as “obiter dicta” and – as they contended – in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, published on November 18 in the year 1893, justly and rightly condemned these errors and safe-guarded the studies of the Divine Books by most wise precepts and rules (Divino Afflante Spiritu ).

By saying that the Bible is Divinely Inspired, the Church is saying that the Bible has “freedom from any error whatsoever.” Faith in Divine Inspiration logically necessitates Divine Inerrancy.

Vatican II cannot be saying that salvific truth is inerrant while other material in Scripture is not because this would be a corruption of a dogma of the faith, “the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church,” and Vatican I places such corruptions under anathema:

“[T]hat meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding…

“If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.”
 
Consequently, Vatican II is saying that the Bible was written for the sake of our salvation and is free from error. Inerrancy in the writings of the Fathers has been well established, but you can refer back to the two quotes I supplied from Chrysostom as an illustration of the “for the sake of our salvation” principle being expressed by the faith of the Fathers. We also have this from Clement of Alexandria:

I could adduce ten thousand Scriptures of which not one tittle shall pass away without being fulfilled; for the mouth of the Lord the Holy Spirit has spoken these things… Let us then ever obey the voice of the divine word.

…]

“For truly holy are those letters that sanctify and deify; and the writings or volumes that consist of those holy letters and syllables, the same apostle consequently calls inspired of God, being profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to every good work. No one will be so impressed by the exhortations of any of the saints, as he is by the words of the Lord Himself, the lover of man. For this, and nothing but this, is His only work— the salvation of man” (, Ch. 9Exhortation to the Heathen).

And from Basil the Great:

“Now it is Moses who has composed this history… It is this man, whom God judged worthy to behold Him, face to face, like the angels, who imparts to us what he has learned from God. Let us listen then to these words of truth written without the help of the enticing words of man’s wisdom by the dictation of the Holy Spirit; words destined to produce not the applause of those who hear them, but the salvation of those who are instructed by them” (, Homily 1, No. 1The Hexæmeron).

And the well known quote from Augustine sums up this aspect of the faith for us:

It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them. Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial. What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side? But the credibility of Scripture is at stake, and as I have indicated more than once, there is danger that a man uninstructed in divine revelation, discovering something in Scripture or hearing from it something that seems to be at variance with the knowledge he has acquired, may resolutely withhold his assent in other matters where Scripture presents useful admonitions, narratives, or declarations. Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation” (, Bk. 2, 9:20On the Literal Meaning of Genesis).

Basil concurs:
”[G]uess, from what Holy Scripture indicates, all that is passed over in silence.

“‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth’ (Genesis 1:1). If we were to wish to discover the essence of each of the beings which are offered for our contemplation, or come under our senses, we should be drawn away into long digressions, and the solution of the problem would require more words than I possess, to examine fully the matter. To spend time on such points would not prove to be to the edification of the Church. Upon the essence of the heavens we are contented with what Isaiah says, for, in simple language, he gives us sufficient idea of their nature, ‘The heaven was made like smoke’ (Isaiah 51:6), that is to say, He created a subtle substance, without solidity or density, from which to form the heavens. As to the form of them we also content ourselves with the language of the same prophet, when praising God ‘that stretches out the heavens as a curtain and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in’ (Isaiah 40:22). In the same way, as concerns the earth, let us resolve not to torment ourselves by trying to find out its essence, not to tire our reason by seeking for the substance which it conceals” (, Homily 1, Nos. 7-8The Hexæmeron).
 
  1. All believers must believe that scripture is inerrant as to matters of salvation. (as to other matters they have liberty to believe inerrancy or not.)
Vatican 2 said #1.
Please take the time to reread everything that I’ve brought together for you in this thread. Vatican II cannot have said #1. Joe – I hope only in his ignorance – says #1. Augustine Bea, who helped compose Divino Afflante Spiritu, had a significant hand in promulgating Dei Verbum. He is not guessing at things from the outside.
As Augustine said on essentials unity, on non-essentials liberty, in all things love.
Actually…

Did St. Augustine write the following citation, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity”

No. Unfortunately, no one has found the primary text of this citation from the vast corpus of St. Augustine’s writings. No Church Father has left us with more pregnant proverbial sayings than St. Augustine; hence, it is no wonder why this citation is popularly attributed to St. Augustine. The earliest use of this citation has been traced to a German theologian of the 17th century - named Rupert Meldenius. (Church Fathers FAQ)

Happy Easter, my brother. May the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth!

With the love of Christ,
Pete
 
Pete, your arguments are airtight and accurately and truly reflect the teaching of the Church. I commend you on your efforts on this thread and all the useful information you have provided. I’ve been able to use much of it in discussions I’ve been having elsewhere. Thank you for your loyalty to the teachings of Holy Mother the Church and for your research.

God bless and Happy Easter!
 
I just wanted to say happy Easter to everyone still following this thread. 🙂

I know I am extremely backlogged in my responses to many posts. I do appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut from so many and will post my own thoughts as time allows. 👍
 
Don’t forget that the whole infallibility and inerrancy thing has its roots in Jewish tradition, where it was simply not allowed to question religious leaders.

There is a current crop of educated Jews who are impartially researching their cultural history and publishing their findings.

The conclusions to be drawn from reading these Jewish scholars are that contemporary Jews are beginning to put their ancient religious mythology in the same category as have already the Greeks, Italians, Germans, Scandinavians, etc., etc. put their own.

As this gains traction, people are going to have to rethink ideas, traditions and beliefs that are rooted in that old mythology.
 
I saw a press release yesterday indicating that the PBC will be meeting next week to work on a document about the Inspiration and Truth (Inerrancy) of the Bible. Last night, I sent the CDF an email at cdf@cfaith.va and I wanted to encourage everyone else to do the same, or to send a letter if you think that is better. 🙂

If you would like to see a copy of the letter that I sent, you can email me at pholter@amrl.net.

Thank you very much!

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
 
Actually…

Did St. Augustine write the following citation, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity”

No. Unfortunately, no one has found the primary text of this citation from the vast corpus of St. Augustine’s writings. …
With the love of Christ,
Pete

Thanks for the info Pete. 👍 Even if Augustine didn’t say it I still think its good advice though.​
 
Please take the time to reread everything that I’ve brought together for you in this thread. Vatican II cannot have said #1. Joe – I hope only in his ignorance – says #1. Augustine Bea, who helped compose Divino Afflante Spiritu, had a significant hand in promulgating Dei Verbum. He is not guessing at things from the outside.
Of course he was one of many involved with Vatican II. The document from Vatican II does not speak to inerrancy beyond the purpose of salvation. There was discussion but they did not go as far as the Pope Leo XIIIs or Pope Pius the XIIs encyclicals.

I can see that this issue is near to your heart. I am curious why you think its so important that the church require everyone to believe that even the profane parts of scripture are without error or be considered a heretic.
 
Thanks for the info Pete. 👍 Even if Augustine didn’t say it I still think its good advice though.
You are RIGHT! The principle laid down is what’s important. I’m sorry I didn’t mention that sooner and that you had to draw it out of me. 😊 And maybe Augustine really did write it and we just haven’t found the source for it yet.

I was more concerned to pedantically make a point than with sharing helpful information with the love of God. Will you please forgive me?

I hope you had a good week!

With the love of Christ,
Pete
 
Chrysostom tells us:

“Yet surely, if you are willing to believe what is evident, the things invisible ought to be believed by you, rather than those which are seen. Even though what I say be a paradox, nevertheless it is true, and among men of understanding is fully acknowledged. For whereas the eyes are often deceived, not in the things unseen only (for of those they do not so much as take cognizance), but even in those which men think they actually see, distance and atmosphere, and absence of mind, and anger, and care, and ten thousand other things impeding their accuracy; the reasoning power of the soul on the other hand, if it receive the light of the divine Scriptures, will prove a more accurate, an unerring standard of realities” (Homily 13 on Matthew).

And

Let us then in everything believe God, and gainsay Him in nothing, though what is said seem to be contrary to our thoughts and senses, but let His word be of higher authority than both reasonings and sight… For His word cannot deceive, but our senses are easily beguiled. That has never failed, but this in most things goes wrong” (Homily 82 on Matthew).

These are clear affirmations of total inerrancy. 🙂
No they are not. They would only be that if you denied there was any human component to the scripture. But there is. I totally agree with everything you posted from St John Crhysostom yet do not see how this implies that the details of the scripture (that are irrelevant to salvation) can’t have errors.
 
Chrysostom tells us:

“Yet surely, if you are willing to believe what is evident, the things invisible ought to be believed by you, rather than those which are seen. Even though what I say be a paradox, nevertheless it is true, and among men of understanding is fully acknowledged. For whereas the eyes are often deceived, not in the things unseen only (for of those they do not so much as take cognizance), but even in those which men think they actually see, distance and atmosphere, and absence of mind, and anger, and care, and ten thousand other things impeding their accuracy; the reasoning power of the soul on the other hand, if it receive the light of the divine Scriptures, will prove a more accurate, an unerring standard of realities” (Homily 13 on Matthew).

And

Let us then in everything believe God, and gainsay Him in nothing, though what is said seem to be contrary to our thoughts and senses, but let His word be of higher authority than both reasonings and sight… For His word cannot deceive, but our senses are easily beguiled. That has never failed, but this in most things goes wrong” (Homily 82 on Matthew).

These are clear affirmations of total inerrancy. 🙂
No they are not. They would only be that if you denied there was any human component to the scripture. But there is. I totally agree with everything you posted from St John Crhysostom yet do not see how this implies that the profane details of the scripture can’t have errors.
You are RIGHT! The principle laid down is what’s important. I’m sorry I didn’t mention that sooner and that you had to draw it out of me. 😊 And maybe Augustine really did write it and we just haven’t found the source for it yet.

I was more concerned to pedantically make a point than with sharing helpful information with the love of God. Will you please forgive me?

I hope you had a good week!

With the love of Christ,
Pete
Pete no need to ask forgiveness for saying the truth. I find your posts very informative. My heart tends to be on the other side of this issue. But I do appreciate everything I am learning from how you look at this matter.

BTW I asked you sort of personal question about why you are concerned for this issue and so let me share a bit about my own reasons. There was a time when I was somewhat afraid to read scripture. I was afraid that if I read it I would find too many things that violated my faith and I would lose it. I started to read scripture and found many many things that in the end I thought were simply likely to be errors. For those like Pius IX who would say I will “break but not bend” they either give up on the idea that the faith is rational or they break. But as for those like John XXIII who will “bend but not break” they accept some things may not be exactly as we would like but still hang on. (BTW I am not trying to give the views of these guys on this particular question of inerrancy but just a general outlook) I’m squarely in the bend but not break category. I think St. John (and likely many church fathers) was also in that category.

I believe that what the church binds and looses here will be so in heaven. I just wish the church would stop doing so much binding and start doing a bit more loosening. After all we pray to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others. Jesus never thought to tell us that we must believe there was no error in saying a rabbit chews the cud.
 
Pete with respect to Saint John you are quoting several passages where he argues against a particular passage having error. You then try to draw the conclusion that therefore he must have believed there were no errors anywhere in the scripture. This is the logical fallacy of affirmation of the consequent.

The writer that Cathphilosopher quoted did the same thing here is what I wrote.

"Just because someone argues that certain passages are not in error does not mean they believe all passages are without error. To not understand this is simply to ignore logic. Let me explain:
  1. If St. John believed no part of the bible has error then he would believe Parts XY and Z do not have error.
  2. St John argued that parts X,Y and Z do not have error
    Conclusion: Therefore St. John believed no part of the bible has error.
Although this may sound ok it is a demonstration of a formal logical fallacy - Affirming the consequent."

Let me ask you. If I mirror What Saint John said and say:
  1. “Discordance … seems to exist in little matters” of scripture.
would this be heresy?

What if I say:
2) The Gospel writers do not always agree to the time and place of what occurred?

Would that be heresy?

Both mirror what Saint John taught.
 
With respect to the 13 or so fathers you have quoted to show they believed the bible was without error even as to small matters I have already indicated that this is really only about 17% of the church fathers. It would seem that if more held such a remarkable view we would have more of them remarking on it. However to the extent many fathers argued for the faith, we would generally, not expect to see them arguing the Scriptures do have errors. I mean it doesn’t necessarily help our case to go out of our way to point out errors. So the purpose of their writing did not suit those sorts of admissions.

But here is the important point. There is a big difference between saying
  1. I believe the scripture has no error even to matters that have nothing to do with our salvation.
    and
  2. No one can consider themselves a true Christian unless they believe the scripture has no error even to minor matters that have nothing to do with our salvation.
Very few of the relatively few fathers you quoted said 2. Yet that is what we are trying to decide in this thread. Of course no one would say it’s wrong to believe 1. But the question is whether 2 is also true. Vatican 2 does not say 2.
 
Finally I would point out that although yes the church fathers often argued there were no errors in scripture, it is important to understand they often did this based on their ignorance of science. Look at this tract where so many of them end up arguing the universe could have only existed for a few thousand years.

catholic.com/library/Creation_and_Genesis.asp

The point is that the church fathers lived closer in time to the Scripture writers so their understanding of science were not much different from those writers. However we have indeed made advances in the sciences. Accordingly the reasoning employed by those church fathers has been shoed to be in error. If we reject their reasoning but still try to hold on to the conclusions - just because of blind faith - we can’t call ourselves reasonable.
 
The peace of the Lord be with you.

If anyone (including you, Joe :)) would like me to respond to Joe’s latest posts, I will put something helpful together. You can respond to this thread or send me a private message letting me know. But without a request, I am moving on.

With the love of our Creator King, the Lord Jesus,
Pete
 
I can’t speak for others but I am always interested in reading your posts. I still think I need to respond to some of the earlier posts from, cathphilosopher and you.

You have both posted allot and it will take time to go through it. If you are interested in responses to anything in particular first I will be happy to give that priority, otherwise I will just go though them as limitted time allows.
 
… Trent said that “God is the author of both” the New Testament and the Old Testament and the anathemas from both councils essentially say the same thing:

“These books the church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the church…

“If anyone does not receive as sacred and canonical the complete books of sacred scripture with all their parts, as the holy council of Trent listed them, or denies that they were divinely inspired : let him be anathema” (Vatican I).
.
No one in this thread (except for perhaps Anon) disputes that all the books listed by the council of Trent were divinely inspired. In this context we should understand that Trent is saying we shouldn’t throw out the book of Hebrews or Macabees. The council of Trent did not list every phrase. Nevertheless the issue of inspiration and inerrancy are separate. I might say my grandmother was the inspiration for an entire book that I wrote. But it would be very extreme for you to then say “Well on page 372 the second paragraph third sentence you say “x” and I know your grandmother and she never would have said x, therefore the book was not inspired by her.”

So I really see no problem with agreeing that all the books of the bible as listed by Trent are inspired but still maintaining that there may be an error that has nothing to do with salvation.
 
Oops I was visiting family and accidentally posted on my dad’s account. The 2 posts above by “Mike McCarron” were actually posted by me.
 
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