Something to keep in mind is that, at least political speaking, the “religious right” in the US is primarily an Evangelical Protestant point of view. I think that this is at least partly responsible for the surprisingly low regard that a non-trivial number of US Catholics seem to have not just for our Bishops, but even the Pope.
Perhaps one way to look at this is to say that the War in Iraq is a battle within the larger War on Terrorism or Radical Islamofascism (please don’t focus on the name I use but the idea). Then the question is whether the War on Terror is just.
NoIt’s one of those “prudential” things we can ignore if we want to, don’t ya know?
That’s just it. “Islamofascism” is an impossibility unless you change the meaning of the word fascism.
Bad analogy. Hussein was hated by Al Qaeda and the feeling was mutual. They only showed up after we invaded.
To compare the current struggle to WWII is such a bad analogy as to cheapen those killed in the fight of WWII.
I was being sarcastic. Everytime a right-door cafeteria Catholic wants to do his own thing, he makes the claim of “prudential teaching” so he can justify his ignoring the Church.
It actually seems to make even less sense in that context. We diverted resources from Afghanistan to Iraq. As a consequence, our latest extensive military evaluation for Afghanistan is that our rosiest assessment is a current stalement, with Taliban control of portions of the country, and more pessimistic assessments of actually losing ground and growing instability.
But you didn’t actually respond to my points.
But again, this is saying that because there are valid arguments that invading Iraq may (and I maintain may) not have been the correct strategic or tactical decision, then it is unjust.
Goodness. Take a deep breath people … pass out some paper bags. OK, underneath all the sarcasm and condescension there is a valid question: what consideration do Botean’s comments merit based on his position as a bishop of the Romanian Catholic Church?
In Lumen gentium 25 we read:
I’m sorry, those were yes or no questions. Would you care to answer them that way? I am really curious to see how you three respond to them.
I just wonder on how much the decision to be there has to do more with keeping a large standing army trained in ‘live’ battlefield conditions, and practicing and testing out new weapons technology on real people being used as targets. Nothing like investigating the effects on mangled corpses with real flesh and bone than manequins or mock tanks at home.
| respond to them this way: For anyone to say that a declaration of a Catholic bishop in full communion with the Holy See, carries no more significance for Catholics than a statement from Billy Sunday, is truly ridiculous and indicates a lack of knowledge concerning the Catholic teaching on what is meant by the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church.
Well I’m willing to discuss this but you won’t answer my questions and your compatriots haven’t so we’re not making much progress. I’m really looking for a more cogent analysis than “you’re ridiculous.”
Once again you are misquoting me, by extending and embellishing on what I actually wrote. I did not accuse any one person of being ridiculous. I was speaking about a statement made. The statement made previously that an oficial declaration of a Catholic bishop concerning an issue of Catholic morality carries no more significance than a statement from Billy Sunday is something that I find a bit difficult to assent to, in light of the Catholic teaching on the ordinary magisterium of the Church.
This is a red herring argument. The basic problem is that you spoke in ignorance and with complete disrespect with regards to a prince of the Church. It would have taken you all of 10 seconds to confirm the Bishop’s proper status, but you chose not to.
In other words, because the teaching is not absolute, it would not be appropriate for a Bishop to deny a Catholic communion for publicly supporting the war - because there is not a certainty that public war mongering is the ‘obstinate perserverence’ of “manifest grave sin”. However, given now Pope Benedict’s writings and approved declarations, rather or not war supporters should present themselves for communion is an entirely different question. Hinging largely on their beliefs and presumed justifications.
No, I am merely saying that there are three seperate questions. Is a policy in national self interest? Is a policy effective? And is a policy compatible with Catholic teaching?
I think you are mistaken in your belief that we have claimed to be operating outside Geneva Conventions, or that we have adopted torture as a matter of policy. Others have made this claims and I think you have simply taken these claims at face value. On the other hand, we certainly are dealing with individuals and groups who feel freed by their religious beliefs of any legal constraints. The Geneva codes certainly give no protection to anyone engaged in guerilla warfare, which has been the norm of Al Queda and other irregulars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The United States Government has argued that the Geneva Conventions do not apply before the United States Supreme Court. Further we have sworn Congressional testimony from the administration on at least three instances of prohibited activity.
If I were to make that argument I would point to our treaty obligations under NATO and our membership obligations to the UN. Preventative war is prohibited under international law and direct treaty. But I have not made that argument. I have merely pointed out that there is a difference between pursuing what is perceived to be in national self interest and moral obligations of Catholicism. If you torture prisoners, use extraordinary rendition, pay hush money when drunken Pinochet thugs gun down pregnant civilians for sport, or arm Sunni militia who, in turn persecute Christians, murdering them and driving them from there homes - Rome will (and has) object, and seemingly rightfully so. We have ignored Rome’s appeal to provide safe havens in the north for Christians and other refugees that our policies are creating. Like torture, the disregard for civilian non combatants is also non negotiable to Catholics.
