Is the war in Iraq an unjust war?

[rlg94086]

Exactly the question I asked back in post #29: for whom is it binding?

This is just what I would have said (but your saying it doesn’t generate the same eye-rolling response.)

It should be pretty clear that - given the prudential nature of the popes comments - they are not binding. Given that even the popes comments are not binding, and that a bishop’s declarations are not binding on anyone outside of his diocese, the statements of a Romanian Catholic bishop are not binding on any Roman Catholic.

Seems that way to me, but that then leaves an interesting question. Truth isn’t relative, correct? Therefore, “directly supporting” the war in Iraq can’t be both a mortal sin and not sinful at the same time. I know of no other declaration by a Bishop or Pope on this matter, so I would have to say that Bishop Botean has stepped beyond his authority by making a declarative statement on this matter.

Mind you, I am not saying that the war was just or unjust. What I am saying is that I don’t consider it a mortal sin for a Catholic to support the war, depending on the basis of their prudential judgment (i.e. if they approve of it because they want to kill all Muslims, then that would be a mortal sin IMHO).

 

[bobzills]

Yes, the Bishop quotes the Catechism, but then basically says, “yes, but…” IOW…he does ***not ***allow the individual Catholic prudential judgment on the matter.

I only said that, in answer to your question on it, he addresses the issue of prudential judgement.

 

[RWMorris]

Seems that way to me, but that then leaves an interesting question. Truth isn’t relative, correct? Therefore, “directly supporting” the war in Iraq can’t be both a mortal sin and not sinful at the same time. I know of no other declaration by a Bishop or Pope on this matter, so I would have to say that Bishop Botean has stepped beyond his authority by making a declarative statement on this matter.

Mind you, I am not saying that the war was just or unjust. What I am saying is that I don’t consider it a mortal sin for a Catholic to support the war, depending on the basis of their prudential judgment (i.e. if they approve of it because they want to kill all Muslims, then that would be a mortal sin IMHO).

Beautifully said, Thank You.

 

[bobzills]

Seems that way to me, but that then leaves an interesting question. Truth isn’t relative, correct? Therefore, “directly supporting” the war in Iraq can’t be both a mortal sin and not sinful at the same time. I know of no other declaration by a Bishop or Pope on this matter, so I would have to say that Bishop Botean has stepped beyond his authority by making a declarative statement on this matter.

Mind you, I am not saying that the war was just or unjust. What I am saying is that I don’t consider it a mortal sin for a Catholic to support the war, depending on the basis of their prudential judgment (i.e. if they approve of it because they want to kill all Muslims, then that would be a mortal sin IMHO).

Bishop Botean has said unequivocally and unambiguously that: "Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory.

Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder. Direct participation in this war is the moral equivalent of direct participation in an abortion. For the Catholics of the Eparchy of St. George, I hereby authoritatively state that such direct participation is intrinsically and gravely evil and therefore absolutely forbidden.

My people, it is an incontestable Biblical truth that a sin left unnamed will propagate itself with lavish zeal. We must call murder by its right name: murder. God and conscience require nothing less if the face of the earth is to be renewed and if the salvation offered by Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ is to reach all people, including us. We have no choice before the face of God but to speak unambiguously to the moral situation with which we are confronted and to live according to the Will of Him who gazes at us from the Cross ( Catechism 1785)."
And if this is an error, we do not see it condemned or resisted as such by the present Pope. I recall that we have the solemn word of . His Holiness St. Pope Felix III: “An error which is not resisted is approved.”

 

[rlg94086]

And if this is an error, we do not see it condemned or resisted as such by the present Pope. I recall that we have the solemn word of . His Holiness St. Pope Felix III: “An error which is not resisted is approved.”

Are you really serious?! I’m guessing that St. Pope Felix III was making the point that it is important for the Church to correct errors - not that uncorrected errors are therefore approved. Give me a break!

Do you realize how many errors by Bishops go without correction by the Vatican? Do you really think that the Vatican approves of them?

 

[bobzills]

Are you really serious?

I am serious in following and making note of the declaration of His Holiness St. Pope Felix III.

 

[RWMorris]

Just so I understand, are you Roman Catholic?

As an American, one is free to hold some pretty extreme or even straing beliefs. For example one can believe in frequent and widespread alien abductions, complete with probings and implants. Or that an obese drug felon with a string of failed marriages and a seeming ED problem and a taste for underage Dominican prostitutes is a legitimate authority on family values. But a central aspect of Catholicism is the Pope’s divine role, and that of the Bishops teaching in communion with him.

Per the dogmatic constituion of the Church, we are called to obey with proper reverence. The Church understands dissent, but makes it clear that it must be handled appropriately and with deference lest it be a detriment to the faith.

Yes, I am Roman Catholic.

The Church is not a democracy, I know. But it is not a dictatorship either, nor is it a comic backdrop for a third-rate Hollywood melodrama. It is a Divine family, full of love, grace, and understanding. If I’ve shown any irreverence, or even appeared to, I am humbly sorry. It was not my intent.

I’ve learned a lot from these forums. Most of the time I just read. But more than occasionally, I’ll throw my:twocents: in. I’ve changed my views on non-abortive ABC, Marian doctrine, penance, and Church annulments since I’ve started reading these threads. Some change was as a direct result of postings to these threads. This is a very useful testimony for the Church.

But disagreeing with the Pope, after the Pope has given me permission to do so, is not showing him disrespect. This is a forum for Catholics and others to discuss issues such as what we are discussing. I fail to see where I’ve been disrespectful. But, I’m a big boy, and I can take it. So, show me. I’ll definitely try to do better.

 

[goofyjim]

The thing to remember in this thread is that it all is opinion. I am of the opinion that it is an unjust war. I respect the opposing opinion and expect them to respect mine as well. This is something the two sides must respectfully disagree on and let the popular vote determine which course of action we take.

 

[rlg94086]

I am serious in following and making note of the declaration of His Holiness St. Pope Felix III.

Great. Give a citation, so I can read it in context.

I’ve heard Bishops teach things contrary to the Catechism and receive no correction from the Vatican. By your understanding of St. Pope Felix III, their errors are now accepted.

 

[stringbeanduck]

No I believe this is a just war. Its war against terror. We are winning and the demacrats don’t want to admit it. I think some actually hope for bad news. I know the media pratically prays for it. I believe we are close to getting the job done.

 

[goofyjim]

No I believe this is a just war. Its war against terror. We are winning and the demacrats don’t want to admit it. I think some actually hope for bad news. I know the media pratically prays for it. I believe we are close to getting the job done.

We went in under false information. Alqaeda didn’t even like Hussein so how could he have been behind 911? There were no wmds. The Pres has no and never had an exit strategy. His theory was to just hand it on to the next administration. Even his own party is against it. His stubborness on this issue may cost us conservatives on moral issues the next election. It is using up money that could be better spent at home. Need I go on?

 

[rlg94086]

We went in under false information. Alqaeda didn’t even like Hussein so how could he have been behind 911? There were no wmds. The Pres has no and never had an exit strategy. His theory was to just hand it on to the next administration. Even his own party is against it. His stubborness on this issue may cost us conservatives on moral issues the next election. It is using up money that could be better spent at home. Need I go on?

Actually, I think it is fair to separate the decision to go to war, versus the need to stay there now. Even if the entry was unjust, we are in a different situation now. We aren’t at war with Iraq. We are there to help them reach a place of stability, and, with Iraqis, we are fighting terrorists and militias opposed to the elected (by a large majority of the population) government of Iraq.

 

[goofyjim]

Actually, I think it is fair to separate the decision to go to war, versus the need to stay there now. Even if the entry was unjust, we are in a different situation now. We aren’t at war with Iraq. We are there to help them reach a place of stability, and, with Iraqis, we are fighting terrorists and militias opposed to the elected (by a large majority of the population) government of Iraq.

Still a matter of opinion. And mine is that we should not stay in beyond a certain date and expect the Iraquis to pick up their own mess afterwards. This adminsitration keeps wanting to write a blank check instead of doing that.

 

[stringbeanduck]

We went in under false information. Alqaeda didn’t even like Hussein so how could he have been behind 911? There were no wmds. The Pres has no and never had an exit strategy. His theory was to just hand it on to the next administration. Even his own party is against it. His stubborness on this issue may cost us conservatives on moral issues the next election. It is using up money that could be better spent at home. Need I go on?

I’ll admit I’m not the proper person to argue on this issue as I do not have full knowledge of it all. But I do know that over 500 chemical weapons were found capable of md. You place a couple of those weapons in the right place there could be 1000s of deaths

 

[goofyjim]

I’ll admit I’m not the proper person to argue on this issue as I do not have full knowledge of it all. But I do know that over 500 chemical weapons were found capable of md. You place a couple of those weapons in the right place there could be 1000s of deaths

If that is true why did the administration confess that they had found none. They went in to change the regime only. This is not our job. Otherwise I could suggest going into Kenya right now.

 

[Ender]

Truth isn’t relative, correct? Therefore, “directly supporting” the war in Iraq can’t be both a mortal sin and not sinful at the same time. I know of no other declaration by a Bishop or Pope on this matter, so I would have to say that Bishop Botean has stepped beyond his authority by making a declarative statement on this matter.

Inasmuch as Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement contradicts Bp Botean’s it is clear that they both can’t be correct. It seems pretty clear to me that Botean has overstepped his authority but I have to say I am relieved that I am not part of his eparchy. I’m not sure what I would do if my bishop made such a statement; fortunately that’s not a decision I am faced with.

 

[txsoldier94]

We went in under false information. Alqaeda didn’t even like Hussein so how could he have been behind 911? There were no wmds. The Pres has no and never had an exit strategy. His theory was to just hand it on to the next administration. Even his own party is against it. His stubborness on this issue may cost us conservatives on moral issues the next election. It is using up money that could be better spent at home. Need I go on?

The US has had, under UN authority, all the justification needed to invade Iraq and remove Saddam since the Fall of 1991.

The cease-fire accords were very specific. The onus of proving the removal of wmd capability was on Saddam. Failure to comply with the cease-fire could result in a resumption of hostilities from Operation: Desert Storm.

Within 6 months, Saddam had failed to live up to his end of the accords. Therefore hostilities could resume without notice.

All the rigamarole that the US went through was purely for political reasons. The justification already existed, along with the authority needed.

The US had no exit strategy for Germany, Japan, or Korea either.

We had one for Vietnam and we all know how well that one worked out in the end, neh?

Victory first, then we figure out what comes next.

Mik

 

[SoCalRC]

Victory first, then we figure out what comes next.

It seems like it would be helpful to define ‘victory’. If you don’t have clear and measurable objectives, you are wasting blood and treasure. Which is not only stupid, but presumably a grave moral disorder as well.

Right now, we have achieved a modest amount of tactical success by switching sides. That is, we are now assisting Sunni militants and war lords and letting them ethnically cleanse areas. But this is not a path to long term stability, unless we plan on replacing Saddam with another Saddam, and it impedes political progress.

The problem is that it never occured to the nitwit neocons that when you remove a Sunni strongman with a Shia majority, self rule is going to result in a strong ally to Iran and problems with Turkey and and the Sauds.

Since Saddam is gone, there are no WMDs, and a pro-US democracy is just not going to happen - what, exactly, would victory entail?

 

[SoCalRC]

You mean the US Constitution that says in Section II,
Sorry for the truncation, I know you don’t like that.

Yes, I dislike picking and choosing. Perhaps you can point to the part of the constitution that actually uses the word “war”.

Oh, you must not be referring to the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002…

Actually, I’m of a mind of the 1100+ historians, from every state and across the political spectrum that urged congress to hold a specific debate and vote. Not to achieve any particular outcome, but for Congress to return to its constitutional duty.

The three that were water boarded were not connected to the Iraq War. George Weigel certainly has a right to his own opinion, but he doesn’t have the authority to invalidate the Iraq war. I will admit there are always a few bad apples, even in the Church. Does that invalidate the Church. I certainly hope not, and neither does it invalidate the far greater good the US did in Iraq.

I think you are confused. We have civilian shootings, with coverups paid for and directed by the State Department. We have the use of white phosphor as a weapon in urban combat, and we have prisoners tortured to death, in detention in Iraq with no repurcussions after administrative review.

We also have the US assisting Sunni militants who, in turn, are persecuting Iraqi Christians (a matter the Pope has brought to the attention of President Bush). We are not talking about the opinion of George Weigel (though he is one of the very few theologicans to even propose that Iraq meets Just War criteria), we are talking about the opinions of two Popes. As a Catholic, those carry the real weight for me.

 

[bobzills]

We have civilian shootings, with coverups paid for and directed by the State Department. We have the use of white phosphor as a weapon in urban combat, and we have prisoners tortured to death, in detention in Iraq with no repurcussions after administrative review.

We also have the US assisting Sunni militants who, in turn, are persecuting Iraqi Christians.

What a nightmare, and what a mess the USA has brought to this region.