Is the war in Iraq an unjust war?

[dmelosi]

What are your thoughts?

 

[ribozyme]

What are your thoughts?

Someone should have done research to figure out there was going to be a power vacuum in Iraq and that this would happen. At least, we should have allowed the UN Weapons Inspectors to do more inspections.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

What are your thoughts?

Let’s see…

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

Nope.

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

Not even tried.

• there must be serious prospects of success;

We won the war but are losing the occupation…so nope.

• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Nope.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

This is the one where the pro-war folks tell people to “sit down and shut up” and leave it the "commander-in-chief. This fails as it is up to the Congress to declare war. It’s in the Constitution. While there have been claims that a vaguely written resolution after 9/11 gave Bush carte blanche to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted for any reason whatsover, even capricous ones, I highly disagree.

In my view, the war and occupation of Iraw are unjust and contemptible actions taken by a madman.

 

[roanoker]

A lot of talk, but I don’t agree with it. Do you actually think Pres. Bush is deranged?? If so, then you probably think he engineered and executed the 9-11 plane crashes. I’d like to hear your answers to these questions.
Remember the atmosphere after 9-11. Everyone was traumatized, and waiting for the next attack. Then Saddam H. kicked the inspectors out, and gave every indication that he had wmds. Every intelligence service around the world was convinced that he did. And he had previously showed the world that he knew how to use them. That maniac, as it turned out, pulled a gigantic con on the best intelligence people in the world, in order to scare Iran. I don’t think we had much choice. Roanoker

 

[goofyjim]

IMHO, which is all this thread will produce, it is unjust. Alquaeda laughed at Hussein originally and didn’t consider him a true Muslim. So we have wasted the last 5 years there while we let bin Laden go his merry way. If the Iraqui people really had wanted Hussein out of there we could have supplied equipment and not our men and let them do the overthrow of the government from within.

 

[goofyjim]

A lot of talk, but I don’t agree with it. Do you actually think Pres. Bush is deranged?? If so, then you probably think he engineered and executed the 9-11 plane crashes. I’d like to hear your answers to these questions.
Remember the atmosphere after 9-11. Everyone was traumatized, and waiting for the next attack. Then Saddam H. kicked the inspectors out, and gave every indication that he had wmds. Every intelligence service around the world was convinced that he did. And he had previously showed the world that he knew how to use them. That maniac, as it turned out, pulled a gigantic con on the best intelligence people in the world, in order to scare Iran. I don’t think we had much choice. Roanoker

Well, I do not think that Bush engineered the plane crashes. But he admits he was misinformed on the presence of wmds. So our only objective in going in was for a regime change which could have been done by supplying equipment and not our own men.

 

[bobzills]

Is the war in Iraq an unjust war?
Yes. The war in Iraq is an unjust war.
This has been articulated very clearly by His Excellency Catholic Bishop John Botean:
"Humanly speaking, I would much prefer to keep silent. It would be far, far easier for me and my family simply to let events unfold as they will, without commentary or warning on my part. But what kind of shepherd would I be if I, seeing the approach of the wolf, ran away from the sheep ( cf . John 10:12-14)? My silence would be cowardly and, indeed, sinful. I believe that Christ, whose flock you are, expects more than silence from me on behalf of the souls committed to my protection and guidance.

Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. **With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory. **
Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder. Direct participation in this war is the moral equivalent of direct participation in an abortion. For the Catholics of the Eparchy of St. George, I hereby authoritatively state that such direct participation is intrinsically and gravely evil and therefore absolutely forbidden. "
For the complete text, please see:
jonahhouse.org/boteanRCbishop.htm

 

[roanoker]

Its almost impossible to over-throw a decades old entrenched tyrannical regime from grass-roots. Rarely, rarely, works. And the unsuccessful attempts invariable result in a montrous blood-bath. We’ve been working on that very thing in Iran for about a generation now, and there’s no progress to speak of. And the Iranian regime is not nearly as totalitarian as it could be. They’re more annoying than anything else. Of course, after they have nukes, that will probably change.

 

[goofyjim]

Its almost impossible to over-throw a decades old entrenched tyrannical regime from grass-roots. Rarely, rarely, works. And the unsuccessful attempts invariable result in a montrous blood-bath. We’ve been working on that very thing in Iran for about a generation now, and there’s no progress to speak of. And the Iranian regime is not nearly as totalitarian as it could be. They’re more annoying than anything else. Of course, after they have nukes, that will probably change.

So it becomes our job to go in and do it for them? That doesn’t constitue a just war, but again that is my opinion and history will show that there are no actual facts to decide either way on this one. It is all a matter of opinions which can be right even if they differ.

 

[roanoker]

Well, Goofy, someone’s got to do it. We just can’t let them continue to murder and brutilize their own people, and enslave them, can we? Is that what you want us to do-go back in isolationism? That failed early in the 20th. century and it’ll fail again if we go that way. I know nobody wants to hear this, but we are in a period of “Pax Americana”, whether we like it or not. Just as it was in the time of Pax Romana, there is nobody else either willing or able to step up to the plate. Someone has to preserve western civilization, which is in real danger right now. Roanoker

 

[goofyjim]

Well, Goofy, someone’s got to do it. We just can’t let them continue to murder and brutilize their own people, and enslave them, can we? Is that what you want us to do-go back in isolationism? That failed early in the 20th. century and it’ll fail again if we go that way. I know nobody wants to hear this, but we are in a period of “Pax Americana”, whether we like it or not. Just as it was in the time of Pax Romana, there is nobody else either willing or able to step up to the plate. Someone has to preserve western civilization, which is in real danger right now. Roanoker

Like I said, all a matter of opinion. I gave mine. It’s now time to return to my lenten fast from CAF.

 

[Dale_M]

Like I said, all a matter of opinion. I gave mine. It’s now time to return to my lenten fast from CAF.

But wait - you can’t go now. You’re almost to 3000 posts!

I think the question of this thread would be better worded to ask “was the Iraq invasion a just war.” The peacekeeping and nation-building operations which has characterized the Iraq war for the past several years would seem to have a different moral character.

 

[SoCalRC]

It is important to keep in mind that, in the Catechism, 2309 does leave the final determination to proper authority for the criteria laid out. I, personally, am somewhat skeptical that proper authority has, in fact, been invoked. The Constitution places control over the declaration of war with the Congress.

I found the absense of such a debate, vote, and declaration for Vietnam troubling (where I served as a combat medic) and I find it troubling now.

But the argument could be made that congressional authority was conferred to the President and the war duly authorized. However, it is also important to keep in mind that the criteria that come after 2309 are not conditional or in the determination of civil authority. On this front, we have some serious moral problems. We have used white phosphor as an offensive weapon in an urban area, we have held that we are operating outside of the Geneva Conventions, we’ve used secret detention and torture of prisoners (including, in at least one instance, torture crucifixion), and since last year we’ve been arming and assisting Sunni militants for short term security gains. However, these militants are achieving security through ethnic clensing.

Even George Weigel has conceded that torture as official policy automatically invalidates any just war argument.

 

[Shoshana]

Well, Goofy, someone’s got to do it. We just can’t let them continue to murder and brutilize their own people, and enslave them, can we? Roanoker

Why look at another country when this is happening within our own country. How many babies are torn apart/ shredded? burned alive? suffocated? Maybe we should make war within our own people for allowing this to happen! It is a wonder that the muslims are not using this information to show how truly hypocrite we are!

 

[Ender]

The war in Iraq is an unjust war.
This has been articulated very clearly by His Excellency Catholic Bishop John Botean

Botean is not a Roman Catholic bishop and his words are no more significant than the opinions of the Archbishop of Canterbury or Billy Sunday. His perspective may (or may not) be interesting but it is certainly not definitive.

Ender

 

[bobzills]

Botean is not a Roman Catholic bishop and his words are no more significant than the opinions of the Archbishop of Canterbury or Billy Sunday. His perspective may (or may not) be interesting but it is certainly not definitive.

Ender

Bishop Botean is Catholic bishop in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[SoCalRC]

Bishop Botean is Catholic bishop in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

Presumably Ender was confused by the Romanian Rite. But Botean is, indeed, Catholic bishop answering directly to the Holy See.

Of course, we have plenty of Bishops and Cardinals overseeing the Latin Rite who strongly concur with Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI as well.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Well, Goofy, someone’s got to do it. We just can’t let them continue to murder and brutilize their own people, and enslave them, can we? **Is that what you want us to do-go back in isolationism? ** That failed early in the 20th. century and it’ll fail again if we go that way. I know nobody wants to hear this, but we are in a period of “Pax Americana”, whether we like it or not. Just as it was in the time of Pax Romana, there is nobody else either willing or able to step up to the plate. Someone has to preserve western civilization, which is in real danger right now. Roanoker

This argument is inherently flawed. Opposing a specific action does not equate with advocating isolationism. By your rationale, we should invade and conquer every single brutal dictatorship in the world!

And this is what bothers me most about this question! I support neither the Dems or the GOP, but I had my reservations about this war to begin with. They got worse as time went on, and now I think it was a huge mistake.

And yet I also believe that it’s our mess, and we have to clean it up.

So both sides think I’m a fool. And here I am in the middle, wondering why opposition to the war means I’m a terrorist sympathizer, and opposition to early withdrawal means I’m a warmongering neo-Nazi.

Peace,
Dante

 

[bobzills]

Presumably Ender was confused by the Romanian Rite. But Botean is, indeed, Catholic bishop answering directly to the Holy See.

Of course, we have plenty of Bishops and Cardinals overseeing the Latin Rite who strongly concur with Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI as well.

To say that a declaration of a Catholic bishop in full communion with the Holy See is no more significant than a statement from Billy Sunday is truly staggering.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

To say that a declaration of a Catholic bishop in full communion with the Holy See is no more significant than a statement from Billy Sunday is truly staggering.

It’s one of those “prudential” things we can ignore if we want to, don’t ya know?