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LilyM
Guest
As well as telling people they can legally get drunk but not drive… and probably as well as telling them they cannot legally drink or take drugs and expecting that they won’t. …
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Usagi
Guest
People can already legally get drunk. We reduced the incidence of drunk driving by punishing, and socially discouraging, the driving under the influence part, not the drinking part.Yeah, allowing people to legally get stoned and hoping they won’t drive or operate machinery is going to work well.
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MtnDwellar
Guest
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
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jeannetherese
Guest
How do you force an adult into rehab?I do wonder what the proper balance is between full legalization and forcing those with problematic levels of drug abuse into rehab. What nonzero amount of use is abuse?
Having seen the damage associated with meth addiction, I can’t believe people want to support legalization. Drug addiction is hard on druggies, and it is also hard on their families and communities. Little kids with rotten teeth whose folks don’t think twice about exposing them to destructive chemicals, theft within homes to fund the next fix, all but perpetual unemployment since steady work is tough and interferes with feeding one’s addiction. I could go on, but this is an all ages forum.
My friend, whose kid got into meth, wound up with molested grandkids and lost a house and a big chunk of retirement before the situation was stabilized. She always comes to mind when I hear the “my use of drugs is a personal choice and affects only me” argument.
If criminalization creates enough stigma to keep a significant number of people from going down that road, it’s worth it.
And as for treatment-happy hunting.
It’s tough to find, waiting lists are long, and it costs a fortune. Enabling/encouraging drug use is going to drive updemand for treatment which can involve intensive care and therapy. Isn’t it cheaper to discourage people from trashing their minds and bodies?
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jeannetherese
Guest
I disagree with this farronwolf, because pot stays in the system of a user for an extended period of time. People who use pot (on weekends, for instance) can go for years without experiencing sobriety.I am not concerned about folks smoking a little pot, any more than I am about them having their beer, wine or whiskey.
I’m not sure why we would want to support this.
farronwolf
New member
And where do you get this information from? Years without sobriety, really?People who use pot (on weekends, for instance) can go for years without experiencing sobriety.
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Rozellelily
Guest
Farronwolf,What does the rest of your statement have to do with the war on drugs?
my statement was in response to Desales111 comment that " It’s like everything bad has become normal and OK. How backwards is it that not wearing a mask can be more of a crime than doing drugs???"
I was highlighting examples of how things in society have become warped where things that used to be considered bad and now being under-reacted to, and vice versa.
I understand your point about alcohol and it could be argued that alcohol is not less of a drug that drugs, but is a socially accepted one.
Personally, I have no issue with people smoking marijuana now and then. The main issue I see is that proponents of legalising recreational drugs are very often not the types that smoked it every now or then. They are often heavy users who make a “lifestyle” and culture around it. I don’t think it should be normalised to smoke it heavily or that culture to be promoted.
At the same time, I am not American and I never really viewed the American style War on Drugs as being successful. The USA unfortunately has the highest incarceration rates in the world in general.
I think it should be dealt with as a medical-social issue instead. But it can’t be neglected that drug addiction is a problem and legalising drugs won’t change that reality.
I don’t believe prosecuting drug users is beneficial, but I do believe that the law should go down hard on drug dealers themselves, with no exemptions for first time offenders.
As an aside, I also believe there are inequalities with how the court systems deal with drug dealers. I know of instances where dealers from low socio-economic circumstances or races have been sent to prison, but other cases where glamorous beautiful women who work in bank jobs (like the below) and dealt drugs on the side have been spared prison. There are many other examples of disparities in drug sentences based on peoples external beauty or lack of.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...s/news-story/f72b6813ce005332114c1d584432ff01
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MikeInVA
Guest
I agree, up to point. The issue is that the person will remain impaired much longer with marijuana than alcohol. It will lead to many DUI(M) convictions, and those connected to serious accidents should result in jail time.But locking folks up for smoking weed is a bit ridiculous based on the other things we allow people to do while being legal.
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MikeInVA
Guest
The effects of marijuana last much longer than alcohol. Allowing people to smoke marijuana does nothing for the common good. I agree that people found smoking or in possession on small amounts should not be jailed, but it should still not be legally endorsed. Too many Americans believe that if something is legal it is actually right (and that they have some right to do it). Usage will skyrocket, lives (both of users, as well as those around them) will be destroyed.
farronwolf
New member
Allowing people to drink alcohol does nothing for the common good, nor does having people on pain pills for extended periods of time. Yet society is perfectly fine with these drugs.
We could list a whole host of things that don’t do anything for the common good but yet we allow, divorce, having children out of wedlock, allowing people to post whatever they want, whether true of not in public forums, allowing people to go into debt for things they don’t need, selectively granting federal tax dollars to certain segments of industry. The list could be very, very long.
The fact that too many Americans find that if something is legal means it is automatically ok, has nothing to do with our set of laws, it has everything to do with how Americans raise their own children. Looking to the government to instill moral thought into society is a loosing strategy.
Drugs have been here for ages, and will remain for ages, regardless of their legality. The only way to stop their abuse, just like the only way to stop other things that are detrimental to people and society is to start raising children correctly.
We could list a whole host of things that don’t do anything for the common good but yet we allow, divorce, having children out of wedlock, allowing people to post whatever they want, whether true of not in public forums, allowing people to go into debt for things they don’t need, selectively granting federal tax dollars to certain segments of industry. The list could be very, very long.
The fact that too many Americans find that if something is legal means it is automatically ok, has nothing to do with our set of laws, it has everything to do with how Americans raise their own children. Looking to the government to instill moral thought into society is a loosing strategy.
Drugs have been here for ages, and will remain for ages, regardless of their legality. The only way to stop their abuse, just like the only way to stop other things that are detrimental to people and society is to start raising children correctly.
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MikeInVA
Guest
So you acknowledge the fact that people equate legality with morality, yet you think it should be disregarded here?The fact that too many Americans find that if something is legal means it is automatically ok, has nothing to do with our set of laws, it has everything to do with how Americans raise their own children. Looking to the government to instill moral thought into society is a loosing strategy.
We allow a lot of things that we shouldn’t - so we should continue to allow more misbehavior to become accepted?
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CoffeeFanatic
Guest
Most drug addicts, even when they hit rock bottom, don’t care to go into rehab. I see them when they’re in the hospital.
I had one patient who was an addict and one of her sons was her POA (but he was in prison). He told us that he never truly got the help he needed until he was in prison where he didn’t have access to drugs, and he also told us not to trust his brother (who was also allegedly in rehab). He said the likelihood of him trying to either take money for drugs from his mom or bring her drugs was high.
A lot of IV drug users wind up with endocardititis. I’ve been in the room when a doctor told a twenty-something woman she was dying (and her drug use was responsible). All the while her extraordinarily high boyfriend was blissed out on whatever in the chair and had zero clue what was going on. I’ve watched an IV drug user take off immediately after his family visited- and his mother lament that she’d rather see her son dead before his time that continue on the road to hell. I’ve watched a woman pretend like she was some kind of mother to her seven-year-old and then get caught shooting up in the bathroom. She told me she didn’t care once she found out she had endocarditis. Drugs mattered to her more than her daughter. Many are septic and only stay in the hospital long enough for one or two doses of IV antibiotics.
In my entire time of seeing tons of drug addicts (many hang out near the hospitals to get high now), only one truly struck me as sincere about going into rehab. She had, apparently, begun titrating her doses down and doing washes.
I don’t see legalization of possession and using as a good thing at all. It’s rewarding people who aren’t going to change their ways and will become more of a burden and danger to those around them. It’s really, really, really hard to maintain sympathy for drug users once you’ve had to deal with them.
I had one patient who was an addict and one of her sons was her POA (but he was in prison). He told us that he never truly got the help he needed until he was in prison where he didn’t have access to drugs, and he also told us not to trust his brother (who was also allegedly in rehab). He said the likelihood of him trying to either take money for drugs from his mom or bring her drugs was high.
A lot of IV drug users wind up with endocardititis. I’ve been in the room when a doctor told a twenty-something woman she was dying (and her drug use was responsible). All the while her extraordinarily high boyfriend was blissed out on whatever in the chair and had zero clue what was going on. I’ve watched an IV drug user take off immediately after his family visited- and his mother lament that she’d rather see her son dead before his time that continue on the road to hell. I’ve watched a woman pretend like she was some kind of mother to her seven-year-old and then get caught shooting up in the bathroom. She told me she didn’t care once she found out she had endocarditis. Drugs mattered to her more than her daughter. Many are septic and only stay in the hospital long enough for one or two doses of IV antibiotics.
In my entire time of seeing tons of drug addicts (many hang out near the hospitals to get high now), only one truly struck me as sincere about going into rehab. She had, apparently, begun titrating her doses down and doing washes.
I don’t see legalization of possession and using as a good thing at all. It’s rewarding people who aren’t going to change their ways and will become more of a burden and danger to those around them. It’s really, really, really hard to maintain sympathy for drug users once you’ve had to deal with them.
farronwolf
New member
Some people certainly do equate legality with morality, that doesn’t make them right. I have had numerous discussions on this forum over bankruptcy for example and the fact that it being legal, some think it is a perfectly acceptable business practice. I disagree almost completely.So you acknowledge the fact that people equate legality with morality, yet you think it should be disregarded here?
You can’t legislate morality. You certainly can’t legislate selectively and get moral results.
If one is suggesting we take a puritanical approach to our laws and base them solely on what a particular religion’s beliefs are, well you’re going to have a hard time deciding which religion to pick to base them on.
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MikeInVA
Guest
Isn’t that exactly what laws are - quantified pieces of morality? Even a speed limit is someone’s opinion of how fast you should go enforced on the general public (maybe not a moral call, but certainly a judgement call).You can’t legislate morality.
Our nation was formed on Christian principles and the English system of law. When you ignore or remove that framework, the entire system will collapse.
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Rozellelily
Guest
Not everyone drinks to excess. Binge drinking is just as bad as drug addiction and should be addressed much more.Allowing people to drink alcohol does nothing for the common good, nor does having people on pain pills for extended periods of time.
Addiction to pain pills is really just doctor supported drug abuse anyway. Unless, there truly is nothing else that is effective for those people.
We had royal commisions into this in my country.allowing people to go into debt for things they don’t need
You are right in ways though. There are many huge injustices in each country and “blue collar crime” are often jailed, and people who commit “white collar crimes” are often not.
But if you believe in legalising drugs -what about the drug dealers?
Do you believe that they should be allowed to grow wealthy and live life of luxury off others misfortunes?
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farronwolf
New member
I don’t believe in legalizing all drugs. Like I said in a previous post, marijuana should not be classified as it currently is. I don’t find marijuana any more dangerous than alcohol.But if you believe in legalising drugs -what about the drug dealers?
Opiods, meth and a whole slew of other drugs should remain illegal, or our approach to how we address these should certainly change.
Drug dealers are in it for the money, plain and simple.
How about we set up dispensaries for the really hard drugs, heroine, meth, etc. Heavily regulate the production, tax the heck out of it, and have gov. oversight on the disposition of the drugs. Build a database of the addicts, use the tax money to build treatment programs which are affective, address the mental health issues which underlies some of the abuse.
Jobs, and tax revenue stay in this country instead of in drug lords hands, those who honestly want help can get it, and the crime associated with illegal transportation and distribution will be lessened.
Will it be 100% effective, no. Whiskey is legal, but we still have a limited amount of illegal moonshine made, but it doesn’t come with the massive crime that other drugs create.
Just some thoughts.
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Rozellelily
Guest
They are great ideas! The only problem is that many addicts probably wouldn’t agree to their identifying details to be stored in a database due to stigma concerns.
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MarysLurker
Guest
It doesn’t work.How about we set up dispensaries for the really hard drugs, heroine, meth, etc. Heavily regulate the production, tax the heck out of it, and have gov. oversight on the disposition of the drugs. Build a database of the addicts, use the tax money to build treatment programs which are affective, address the mental health issues which underlies some of the abuse.
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MikeInVA
Guest
That’s the real question though - is marijuana any more dangerous than alcohol? I think most people would say that it is.I don’t find marijuana any more dangerous than alcohol.
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toabb
Guest
why is it more dangerous?That’s the real question though - is marijuana any more dangerous than alcohol? I think most people would say that it is.
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