Is the War on Drugs winding down?

[MarysLurker]

As a non-American I find not just a “you can’t tell me what to do” attitude, but as a side-effect, a “your problems and needs are basically none of my conceen” attitude. As evidenced by a resentment of government welfare programs and a demonisation of many of their recipients

That is the old Calvinist work ethic. Idle hands are the devil’s playground so you must be self made and not rely on anyone, etc. Archbishop Chaput once said that this is part of the American DNA, as it were, but also that Calvinist America was also self-destructing before our eyes:

Calvinism is branded into our national character, even for unbelievers. And it’s a mixed blessing. In the words of the Catholic political scholar Pierre Manent, early Calvinism made a “magnificent contribution … to modern political freedom.” Why? Because in the Calvinist worldview, human power “is liberated or encouraged, but no human being, religious or secular, is above the law.”13 Yet there’s another side to the story. As the (also Christian) political philosopher George Grant put it, in North America, “The control of the passions in [Calvinist] Protestantism became more and more concentrated on the sexual … while the passions of greed and mastery were emancipated from traditional Christian restraints.”14 Translation: The peculiar frenzy for sex and acquisitiveness in today’s American culture has oddly religious roots. The libertine sex is a reaction against (perceived) excessive sexual codes of the past. The consumer acquisitiveness is a celebration of material appetite and possibilities.

– “Strangers in a Strange Land: Living the Catholic Faith in a Post-Christian World” by Charles J. Chaput. Strangers in a Strange Land: Living the Cat... - Kindle

 

[MtnDwellar]

The Beatles sand of “mother’s little helper”,

Wasn’t that the Stones?

 

[jeannetherese]

Could you link to information about this. As far as I am aware, it isn’t stored in fat but I could be wrong. Thank you. I also would like to hear about it influencing someone for years.

Sure. Please note that when I spoke to the possibility of being under the influence for years, I noted that this assumed weekend use. My original quote follows:

“If you’re smoking pot on weekends, you are going to have pot in you for at least as many weeks as you smoke on weekends. You can go for years without being free from its influence.”

Here’s some info to consider about storage and re-intoxication.

Reintoxication: the release of fat-stored Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) into blood is enhanced by food deprivation or ACTH exposure - PMC

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

“If you’re smoking pot on weekends, you are going to have pot in you for at least as many weeks as you smoke on weekends. You can go for years without being free from its influence.”

Here’s some info to consider about storage and re-intoxication.

Interesting. Something that will need further studies, including human studies at some point.

However, while higher levels can be released by fasting or stress, would these be sufficient to impair? Idk how toxicology tests scale from rodents to humans, but that’s that’s a lot of THC. 10mg of THC is a serving in CO with a 10 serving max per edible. A dose per kg body weight at least 100 times less than the study.

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry, I thought the USA War on Drugs also referred to the ongoing prevalence of drugs/drug abuse in the communities in general and the incarceration of people for drug related crime (whether directly or indirectly).

Even if American’s demand their independence, realistically drugs are still illegal, so as soon as a person in found in possession of anti-social hard drugs, what is stopping the courts from giving the addicts two option -either a treatment programme or prison?
Instead of giving all these unrealistic “first warnings” or “community corrections orders” etc they should go straight to the point.

Everyone has a right to independence, but not when it infringes of others rights. If a person can just take drugs, sit at home and only affect themselves, and not commit crimes ok, but because of the anti-social or violent things that you mentioned often committed to buy the drugs, the governments need to do something more.
In some countries, even if a person does not wear a mask in public due to Covid, the police can/will forcefully put a mask on the person and arrest them if necessary.
I really hate forcing anything on people, but I guess the point is if in these mask cases there is not leeway for people’s independence, why do western governments give leeway for independence in drug cases?

This “you can’t tell me what to do” American mindset…really for good or bad we are told what to do everyday any way.

And sending them to prison makes community safer for a while.
But if that prison time is not used effective, they are eventually released back into the community with still the same addictions and mentalities.

Really, you would think that prison would be the perfect place for addicts to be rehabilitated to get off drugs. Away from temptation and away from the streets. But the fact that there are plenty of drugs in prison!? Why is not anything being done to stop the corruption of prison guards. Not all guards are crims, but too many are this way. Is it that certain types are attracted to this profession, or is that hanging around with criminals everyday at work a person starts becoming like them?
And then you hear of the women prison guards in love with the criminals and bring them the drug etc…
Why on earth do men prison have women working in them anyway?

I get the impression those on the outside of the bars are often no less crooked than the ones on the inside.
And for every rat you see, there are 50 you don’t…

Prison guard who smuggled drugs and superglue to Yatala inmates to serve sentence at home - ABC News

"Officers are sleeping with inmates, getting pregnant, get caught with phones, get caught with drugs - didn’t you see the one with Silverwater?"

Sydney prison truck driver charged with trafficking drugs, other cantraband to inmates

Prison guard, 25, arrested over alleged 'relationship' with Silverwater inmate - ABC News

 

[Rozellelily]

And when it is youth, some of these young people have no good role models. it is hard to tell a youth to not take drugs when their own father takes drugs or is alcoholic (violent type).

 

[MarysLurker]

as soon as a person in found in possession of anti-social hard drugs, what is stopping the courts from giving the addicts two option -either a treatment programme or prison?

This is already being done. It is called Drug Court, a program in which defendants agree to a diversion program supervised by a judge.

Home - All Rise

There are many success stories, but there are even more failures–defendants who just won’t cooperate or give up their demons.

 

[Rozellelily]

It is called Drug Court, a program in which defendants agree

It sounds good if it has at least been partly successful. But there also need some sort of intense community programmes as early intervention, because I presume that people only reach these courts once they have been already arrested for something?

And imo, courts should automatically give dealers of hard drugs a minimum of 10 years. And both for man and woman. And even when no prior convictions. This will hopefully deter at least some people if they know that this is a guaranteed minimum sentence and hopefully keep at least some drugs off the street. Some that take up this “job’” do it because they know that they will not go to jail as they have no prior convictions.
For example, the woman in an above link, was a bank manager and the judge did not give her a prison sentence because she only made $300.
This is ridiculously lenient, imo. So just because she is bad at business or got caught early she gets no jail time. As long as there are rulings like this by courts, there is little acting as a deterrent.

If Singapore can give capital punishment, why can’t western countries give at least 10 years for dealers?

 

[MarysLurker]

intense community programmes as early intervention

We can’t do that in America because it would violate the civil rights of the drug user. For example, a government sponsored intervention with in someone’s home would violate the common law and Fourth Amendment right to privacy. OTOH, these are the same civil rights that prevent the government from interfering with Catholic schools and homeschools.

If Singapore can give capital punishment, why can’t western countries give at least 10 years for dealers?

We do. There are just too many to prosecute, even while law enforcement is being cut.

 

[Rozellelily]

By the term “early intervention”, I am not referring to “America style intervention” like I once saw in the past on TV programmes where they pretty much ambush the addict, and then family pour out all their emotions in dramatic way, until the addict “agrees” to go to a rehab for camera’s etc. I am referring more to adult addicts voluntary welcoming peer-support workers into their home. Helping to show they how they turned their own life around. At least some addicts will be open to it.

And educating the youth on healthy choice and natural ways to manage emotions and have purpose and happiness. Now in many countries people are trying to get to the children young by getting sports people or others in public eye giving talks in schools about alternatives to drug use, etc.

It all has to be done in a way that upholds the dignity of the addicts instead of just some clinical, aggressive, or bureaucratic approach which is all too common.

There are sometimes community centers for families of addicts to go to to try to receive help, but some of these centers are sometimes well meaning but ineffective with families left feeling helpless.
These community centers should focus more not just on trying to get addicts to stop, but also on fixing why addicts turn to drugs? Is it depression? A lack of purpose in life? A lack of pride in self and lack of motivation for success? Medicating self for some sort of physical or sexual abuse issues? A lack of good role models? A lack of education or job prospects? Negative family or social environment? etc

We can’t do that in America because it would violate the civil rights of the drug user.

I find this hard to understand. If USA police can do this to a man for not having mask, why is it any different? The man has technically committed no crime, tpolice did this purely out of concern for the public/others.
I don’t support this methods at all, but if not violate the civil rights to do here, why is it different for the drugs?

Philadelphia police drag man without mask off public bus, prompting policy change - ABC News

Sadly, it is all limited by how much money the governments will give, or if NGOs will fund things. If governments close their eyes to this being community issues and won’t prioritize them, what can really change…

 

[Rozellelily]

And doctors are really failing these people. Many doctors would rather “simple work” like a easy patient with a common cold, or a baby immunization, rather then dealing with addict patients. And when they do have addict patient, it is much easier to just prescribe them ongoing methadone for the next 10 years rather than actually…learning anything about the brain.
It is amazing how many doctors really know so little about the brain.
The addicts pre-frontal cortexes are sometimes damaged from repeat drug use, impairing their decision making.
They rely on drugs to release dopamine in their brains because their brains are “sick” and they do not release dopamine from natural means- monetary reward, sex, or a good meal, etc. And the longer they take the drugs, the less dopamine the brain produces, and then they must take higher and higher amounts for the same effect.

So why are doctors not focusing on trying to give addicts medication that increases their dopamine levels or some other natural way to get it?
Because, sadly they lack innovation.

They do not even test their cortisol levels, they do not even do brain scans on them in clinical practice(rarely).
If you even say the word pre-frontal cortex to many doctors (in your country, in my country), they will look at you like you came down from Mars. They do not even know what this is.

Maybe it is harsh, but it is true.
Interestingly though, there is one piece of innovation. Researchers are now trying to see if Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation can help the addicts.

We do. There are just too many to prosecute, even while law enforcement is being cut

I am referring to the dealers specifically. The law enforcement needs to specifically focus 90% on those at the top of the chain -the actual dealers. Police can arrest over and over, but if the courts keep giving dealers lenient sentences (I don’t know about America but happening in my country all too often) everyone is just wasting the police time and undermining them.

 

[MarysLurker]

I am referring to the dealers specifically. The law enforcement needs to specifically focus 90% on those at the top of the chain -the actual dealers

That requires following the money, which in turn requires prosecuting money laundering and thus you have the underfunded prosecution vs the mafia-funded uber defense lawyers, leading to situations like this.

100% turnover in St. Louis prosecutor's office in 2 ½ years | AP News

Meanwhile the politicians are bent on abolishing civil asset forfeiture, further denying the prosecution the discovery and funding it needs to actually level the field.

There is not enough political will (read: not enough good people left in society) to change this situation.

 

[Pattylt]

Part of the problem in dealing with the drug suppliers is that almost every addict also participates in low level dealing. Often, the officers don’t want to charge them with the harsher penalty of dealing and instead, want them to provide the names of their supplier so they move up the chain of dealers.

Once you get to high level suppliers, then you’re dealing with people that are more afraid of their mob bosses than a court sentence. These are the ones it’s hard to get evidence on and harder to prosecute. Throwing a bunch of petty dealers who are only dealing enough to supply their habit doesn’t address the larger problem.

 

[MarysLurker]

Once you get to high level suppliers, then you’re dealing with people that are more afraid of their mob bosses than a court sentence. These are the ones it’s hard to get evidence on and harder to prosecute.

Right. This is why the prosecution needs other tools like asset forfeiture suits, which provide access to civil discovery mechanisms, in order to go any further (such as by subpoenaing the records of suspected money laundering businesses). The political winds are strongly against this and they aren’t likely to reverse any time soon.

 

[MarysLurker]

There is not enough political will (read: not enough good people left in society) to change this situation.

And if you don’t believe me, ask the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/a-crisis-facing-law-enforcement-recruiting-in-the-21st-century/

Law enforcement agencies have experienced astronomical applicant disqualification rates in their attempts to fill existing vacancies. Failure rates during the law enforcement screening process have been reported as high as an astonishing 98.5 percent.8 Given the projections of future vacancy rates in police departments and sheriffs’ offices, sheer mathematics suggest that there may not be sufficient numbers of interested and qualified applicants to fill the positions available, especially when the field is aspiring to recruit the best of the best. As unfilled vacancies persist, even experienced personnel may become discouraged, which may lead some to consider their retirement options at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

[Pattylt]

@MarysLurker, that was an interesting piece. Recruitment problems in the police is mirrored in other professions, too. I’m a retired Medical Technologist…a field of laboratory science that few are entering today and most still working are at or near retirement age. How long can a job category keep high standards when there are no applicants that meet them?

For the police, it may come to not necessarily lowering the requirements as much as changing them and looking in areas they never looked into before. I don’t know what those might be but changing the standard roles that police have may need to change as well. Money paid for jobs as well as retirement benefits have to be considered. People will work for less than ideal wages if there are other perks that make up for it…and one area police need to work on is their public perception of them.

In laboratory science, while it was always a good paying job, it wasn’t nearly as high paying as other hospital positions. Nurses make more and work fewer hours but are seen by everyone in the hospital. Lab techs are never seen, work long hours…on their feet…and aren’t very highly respected for some reason. Yet vacancies in a lab are a huge burden on the working of a hospital. Over 75% of diagnosis is based on lab results! So far, meeting the shortages has been through lowering of standards…remember that when you’re in the hospital!

No one wants to lower standards but they are going to need to do some shifting of qualifications somewhere, somehow!

 

[LilyM]

Rozellelily:

as soon as a person in found in possession of anti-social hard drugs, what is stopping the courts from giving the addicts two option -either a treatment programme or prison?

This is already being done. It is called Drug Court, a program in which defendants agree to a diversion program supervised by a judge.

https://www.nadcp.org/

There are many success stories, but there are even more failures–defendants who just won’t cooperate or give up their demons.

Still, from what I undertand, significantly less repeat offenders than simple fines or imprisonment

 

[otjm]

Every once in a while I toss something out there to see if anyone is awake.

I imagine Mick could tell stories…

 

[Dan123]

No; it was some time ago in an article questioning the wisdom of legalizing pot. As Oregon had already done so also, it caught my attention. While the article did not state the level of the increase, the indication was that it was not a minor blip.

Crash Fatality Rates After Recreational Marijuana Legalization in Washington and Colorado - PMC

Results. Pre–recreational marijuana legalization annual changes in motor vehicle crash fatality rates for Washington and Colorado were similar to those for the control states. Post–recreational marijuana legalization changes in motor vehicle crash fatality rates for Washington and Colorado also did not significantly differ from those for the control states (adjusted difference-in-differences coefficient = +0.2 fatalities/billion vehicle miles traveled; 95% confidence interval = −0.4, +0.9).

I’d be interesting in reading what you said. There’s studies showing states with legalized medical marijuana use in fact have lower fatality rates, though more study is needed: US Traffic Fatalities, 1985–2014, and Their Relationship to Medical Marijuana Laws - PMC

 

[MarysLurker]

How long can a job category keep high standards when there are no applicants that meet them?

The conventional answer is to boost immigration, but that is subject to diminishing returns because there are only so many skilled immigrants on the planet, and global fertility is declining so there weren’t be more of them.

So you are right that there will be a decline in standards, whether for police or medical diagnostic techs. And in both cases, it is literally a matter of life and death.