Is there a Catholic problem with basic evolution theory?

  • Thread starter Thread starter grannymh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mVitus said:
Considering original sin had not yet enetered the world and Genesis says God saw what he made was good, I think it’s safe to say an omniscient Creator created an Adamn as He intended.
Click to expand...
These two questions is where the rubber meets the road.

Did God know what Adam looked like?
Did Adam look as God had planned?

This is at odds with polygenism and blind unguided chance.
 
buffalo said:
These two questions is where the rubber meets the road.

Did God know what Adam looked like?
Did Adam look as God had planned?

This is at odds with polygenism and blind unguided chance.
Click to expand...
Polygenism (polygenesis) is when there is a bunch of random breeding Adams. 🙂

Unguided chance takes place within the random breeding populations (plural intended) required by polygenism.

The Science of Human Evolution speaks about populations in the hundreds and thousands.

The Catholic Church is firm that the human species began with a population of two aka Eve and Adam.
 
buffalo said:
These two questions is where the rubber meets the road.

Did God know what Adam looked like?
Did Adam look as God had planned?

This is at odds with polygenism and blind unguided chance.
Click to expand...
Blind unguided chance is of course at odds with God. But things that look like blind unguided chance, can actually be under Providence.

Imagine taking a paint can and throwing it towards a canvas to create an image. Now let’s say that before you threw the paint can, you took painstakingly specific measurements, accounted for everything, and determined how you were going to throw the paint can to get a specific image you desired. When you throw that paint can, it’s going to look haphazard. It’s going to look random. It’s going to look like the image came up by pure chance, but you knew what the image was going to be because you set everything in motion when you threw that paint can with the knowledge of how it was all going to turn out and that image that looks like it came forth through pure luck, is what you intended all along.

So the fact that evolution works by blind chance isn’t as important when you know Who is guiding the blind chance. And so it’s reasonable to say that even with the blind chance of evolution, Adam looked as God intended because He knew the result of the blind chance and intended for the blind chance to work as it did. :twocents:
 
mVitus said:
Blind unguided chance is of course at odds with God. But things that look like blind unguided chance, can actually be under Providence.

Imagine taking a paint can and throwing it towards a canvas to create an image. Now let’s say that before you threw the paint can, you took painstakingly specific measurements, accounted for everything, and determined how you were going to throw the paint can to get a specific image you desired. When you throw that paint can, it’s going to look haphazard. It’s going to look random. It’s going to look like the image came up by pure chance, but you knew what the image was going to be because you set everything in motion when you threw that paint can with the knowledge of how it was all going to turn out and that image that looks like it came forth through pure luck, is what you intended all along.

So the fact that evolution works by blind chance isn’t as important when you know Who is guiding the blind chance. And so it’s reasonable to say that even with the blind chance of evolution, Adam looked as God intended because He knew the result of the blind chance and intended for the blind chance to work as it did. :twocents:
Click to expand...
Evolution is either guided or not. If it is guided, it is not evolution. Evolution as we know it is purposeless and has no foresight.
 
buffalo said:
Evolution is either guided or not. If it is guided, it is not evolution. Evolution as we know it is purposeless and has no foresight.
Click to expand...
So, you are saying that God has no foresight, but must instead guide evolution to the result He wants.

A God with true foresight would not need to guide anything, since He will have already seen the result in advance. No guidance needed.

If the ID designer needs to nudge things part-way through then that just shows that the ID designer set up the initial conditions incompetently. A competent designer would set up the initial conditions to inevitably give the desired result.

A good architect does not have to add extra buttressing to her design part way through. A less good architect might be forced to do so because of faults in the initial design.

The premise of an interventionist designer inevitably implies that the designer failed to make their initial design correctly.

The ID designer is not a competent architect.

rossum
 
Rossum, you are clearly not an artist.
Even if one uses the analogy of programming, it’s all in the tweaking. That’s what the QA dept’s all about. I think I may have confused you with Bradski.
Fact is that design from eternity acts in every single moment.
 
rossum said:
So, you are saying that God has no foresight, but must instead guide evolution to the result He wants.

A God with true foresight would not need to guide anything, since He will have already seen the result in advance. No guidance needed.

If the ID designer needs to nudge things part-way through then that just shows that the ID designer set up the initial conditions incompetently. A competent designer would set up the initial conditions to inevitably give the desired result.

A good architect does not have to add extra buttressing to her design part way through. A less good architect might be forced to do so because of faults in the initial design.

The premise of an interventionist designer inevitably implies that the designer failed to make their initial design correctly.

The ID designer is not a competent architect.

rossum
Click to expand...
God did see what Adam would look like in advance. The question - did He look as God planned?

We understand God’s Providence as the undergirding. God sustains His creation.

Free will is the issue. The competent designer set the world up as “good”. Humans come along and keep chipping away through their free will choices. He will answer prayer. This means He is always acting with His creation, not a standoffish God at all, but as a Father, participative.
 
Aloysium said:
Rossum, you are clearly not an artist.
Even if one uses the analogy of programming, it’s all in the tweaking. That’s what the QA dept’s all about. I think I may have confused you with Bradski.
Fact is that design from eternity acts in every single moment.
Click to expand...
I like the artist analogy. God thought of His creation as an artist. He is also allowing humans to participate in the completion of His work. The initial drawing was “good”. We are mucking with it. Hopefully, we will be able to make it more beautiful.

It makes me think of the times the canvas was more or less beautiful. The last century has erased much beauty.
 
Aloysium said:
Rossum, you are clearly not an artist.
Click to expand...
A human artist does not have omniscient knowledge of the future. A divine artist does. Why does a future-knowing artist have to tweak? Especially an unchanging artist, one who will not change His mind about what He already decided.

Your analogy is faulty, I think.

rossum
 
rossum said:
A human artist does not have omniscient knowledge of the future. A divine artist does. Why does a future-knowing artist have to tweak? Especially an unchanging artist, one who will not change His mind about what He already decided.

Your analogy is faulty, I think.

rossum
Click to expand...
Consider He has given us a paintbrush, too.
 
buffalo said:
God did see what Adam would look like in advance. The question - did He look as God planned?
Click to expand...
How could he not? God saw what Adam would look like in advance. If God did not want Adam to look that way, then God would have made the universe differently.

A pity, sometimes I think I would really like some nice tentacles to twiddle. They would do it so much better than thumbs. 🙂

rossum
 
rossum said:
How could he not? God saw what Adam would look like in advance. If God did not want Adam to look that way, then God would have made the universe differently.

A pity, sometimes I think I would really like some nice tentacles to twiddle. They would do it so much better than thumbs. 🙂

rossum
Click to expand...
Right, it may have been a universe with evolution and blind unguided chance. 😃
👍😉
 
rossum said:
How could he not? God saw what Adam would look like in advance. If God did not want Adam to look that way, then God would have made the universe differently.

A pity, sometimes I think I would really like some nice tentacles to twiddle. They would do it so much better than thumbs. 🙂

rossum
Click to expand...
I have too many children and grandchildren to twiddle. 🙂

While we can say that God knows everything…

…I wonder if it is necessary for us to know and understand all the nitty-gritty of God’s material world. I am content to recognize the general presence of the evolution theory which does have a purpose. Some years back, there were studies which found that lungs in people who lived in extremely high altitudes changed, adapted, evolved. Obviously, the purpose is to survive.

However, when popular evolution theory in the Science of Human Evolution crosses the line into God’s spiritual world, then I am very concerned.😦
 
grannymh said:
I have too many children and grandchildren to twiddle. 🙂

While we can say that God knows everything…

…I wonder if it is necessary for us to know and understand all the nitty-gritty of God’s material world. I am content to recognize the general presence of the evolution theory which does have a purpose. Some years back, there were studies which found that lungs in people who lived in extremely high altitudes changed, adapted, evolved. Obviously, the purpose is to survive.

However, when popular evolution theory in the Science of Human Evolution crosses the line into God’s spiritual world, then I am very concerned.😦
Click to expand...
Evolution with purpose might be better defined as IDvolution 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top