Is there a Catholic problem with basic evolution theory?

  • Thread starter Thread starter grannymh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Evolution? Seems to me that it happens all the time. Human beings and most of the rest of creation seem to evolve all the time. Is not our individual adaptations essentially the same thing?

We may change where we live (for instance) from a warm climate to a colder one and over time “get used to it” or adapt over time so that it seems less cold to us. Is that not an evolution? Especially since it is an almost universal experience?

That does not mean that man evolved from apes even though we share some 95 to 98% of the same DNA (depending upon who you talk to…) with Chimpanzees. Close only counts in hand grenades, horse shoes and nuclear weapons…🤷

The Church does not teach evolution and one of the best books I ever read on it is Chance or Purpose
by Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn
 
Evolution? Seems to me that it happens all the time. Human beings and most of the rest of creation seem to evolve all the time. Is not our individual adaptations essentially the same thing?

We may change where we live (for instance) from a warm climate to a colder one and over time “get used to it” or adapt over time so that it seems less cold to us. Is that not an evolution? Especially since it is an almost universal experience?

That does not mean that man evolved from apes even though we share some 95 to 98% of the same DNA (depending upon who you talk to…) with Chimpanzees. Close only counts in hand grenades, horse shoes and nuclear weapons…🤷

The Church does not teach evolution and one of the best books I ever read on it is Chance or Purpose
by Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn
What you are describing is adaptation. No one argues this. God created life to be adaptable. Macro-evolution is the issue most argued.
 
I have attempted to correspond with her about her recent statements on CAF live.

I posed several questions about the claims she made and have not received a reply.

This article seems like somewhat of a reply. Note she is admitting God and His design. (no problem there) The issue that she believes in biological Darwinism. She stated that there was evidence. A caller asked for and I followed up with the same challenge. I asked for the top three. (again, no reply)

Her being a chemist I directed her to this from a top chemist.

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners.
I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

-and-
Just how difficult is the Origin of Life problem?

In this video James Tours describes his work with nanocars and the difficulty of solving the Origin of Life problem.

Time is enemy as products of reactions degrade
Dream team could not develop a cell
Nobody understands
When will science community confess they have no clue
Abiogenesis nightmare

“Some may contend that I did not use Nature’s building blocks, such as carbohydrates, amino acids, nucleic acids and lipids. I concede, I took the easy route and used simple synthetic molecules, not Nature’s far more complex compounds where chirality and diastereoselectivity can be enormously problematic in synthesis. Thus here we will consider Nature’s building blocks, showing that many of the common parameters hold, yet they become far more difficult for prebiotic systems than for the synthetic chemist today.”

Her article - " If you are confident that God created the climbing roses as well as the molding debris, the carbon dioxide as well as the tree trunk, the person as well as all the diversity of flora and fauna, the elements as well as the angels, then it never, ever should concern a Christian if scientists propose how biological diversity might have evolved."

My answer to this: Is the science has to be correct.

Richard Lewontin a top evo said this “Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.”

That is the problem with evolutionary science in a nutshell.

Perhaps she is converting to IDvolutionism. 😃
 
I have attempted to correspond with her about her recent statements on CAF live.

I posed several questions about the claims she made and have not received a reply.

This article seems like somewhat of a reply. Note she is admitting God and His design. (no problem there) The issue that she believes in biological Darwinism. She stated that there was evidence. A caller asked for and I followed up with the same challenge. I asked for the top three. (again, no reply)

Her being a chemist I directed her to this from a top chemist.

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners.
I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

-and-
Just how difficult is the Origin of Life problem?

In this video James Tours describes his work with nanocars and the difficulty of solving the Origin of Life problem.

Time is enemy as products of reactions degrade
Dream team could not develop a cell
Nobody understands
When will science community confess they have no clue
Abiogenesis nightmare

“Some may contend that I did not use Nature’s building blocks, such as carbohydrates, amino acids, nucleic acids and lipids. I concede, I took the easy route and used simple synthetic molecules, not Nature’s far more complex compounds where chirality and diastereoselectivity can be enormously problematic in synthesis. Thus here we will consider Nature’s building blocks, showing that many of the common parameters hold, yet they become far more difficult for prebiotic systems than for the synthetic chemist today.”

Her article - " If you are confident that God created the climbing roses as well as the molding debris, the carbon dioxide as well as the tree trunk, the person as well as all the diversity of flora and fauna, the elements as well as the angels, then it never, ever should concern a Christian if scientists propose how biological diversity might have evolved."

My answer to this: Is the science has to be correct.

Richard Lewontin a top evo said this “Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.”

That is the problem with evolutionary science in a nutshell.

Perhaps she is converting to IDvolutionism. 😃
Thank you. Unfortunately, I have granny problems with videos.

All the above is valuable; however, we need to address the Achilles Heel when it comes to the intersection of basic evolution theory and firm Catholic doctrines.
 
A human artist does not have omniscient knowledge of the future. A divine artist does. Why does a future-knowing artist have to tweak? Especially an unchanging artist, one who will not change His mind about what He already decided.

Your analogy is faulty, I think.

rossum
Yes.
 
rossum
A human artist does not have omniscient knowledge of the future.
A human artist has certainty about the future effects of his/her work. Why does a human playwright put twists and turns in a plot? The playwright already has knowledge of the end of the story - why not just give ending of the plot and be done with it?

Obviously, the artist is communicating something to an audience. Surprise, adventure, mystery, fun, discovery, participation - the audience experiences these. Of course, the artist knows the end of the story but the work of art guides the actors each step.
Why does a future-knowing artist have to tweak? Especially an unchanging artist, one who will not change His mind about what He already decided.
The tweaking is what His audience experiences and observes in a world governed by time. The divine artist exists outside of time - giving the creatures and creation that He loves, a chance to experience life with various ups and downs, and various tweaks (that we can mistakenly think He is bound by the changes of time to perform) to learn something about the transience and changeableness of life – and thus, the permanence and perfection of the Divine.

You point to it yourself - referencing some sort of perfection in design that you’ve arrived at through a comparison with what is not perfect.
 
I ran into you on another thread about climate change, but let me respond here to you about evolution.

I’ve given my opinion many times in many different threads, but here goes again:

It’s a matter of definition. “Chance,” “random,” “unguided,” etc. I think where many people have a problem is that they see God’s actions as necessarily immediate: “Let there be light!” Poof, light. “Let there be man.” Poof, man. This is a very literalist position which would run into problems when confronted with scientific explanations. Things don’t go poof. But it’s also a heretical position. Why? Because you are limiting God’s power. You are denying God’s ability to work indirectly in ways humans can’t even imagine.

There is no theological reason to think God must be limited to immediate, direct actions. God can work indirectly. If God, as a simple example, wants to create an ear of corn, He doesn’t go “Poof! Let there be corn!” He creates the ear of corn through a seed, light, water, nutrients, and a long growing process. Result? An ear of corn. Does that make God somehow less powerful? I would say the opposite: It makes God more powerful, because of the complication of all the intermediate steps. I’m much more impressed with a God who has created all these complicated steps and the physical laws that govern all these steps than a God who goes “Poof!” all the time.

If you believe that God created the universe, which includes all the mathematical and physical laws, then all of creation obeys those laws. We may not (we don’t, in fact) understand all those laws yet. And of course it’s easy to remove God from the picture entirely and just believe in the laws of nature. It doesn’t mean you have to remove God, but if you wanted to, you could–you could be an atheist and believe in natural laws. But you can also be a good Catholic and believe in natural laws. There’s no contradiction.

Religion doesn’t come into conflict with science–it can’t, insofar as both of them are trying to describe reality. But they are also asking different questions: Science asks “How did this happen?” and religion asks “Why did this happen?” The answers have no necessary connection with each other.

So, to go back to your article: The woman writing about her garden as “planned” and the wild lot next door as being “unplanned” has a very, very narrow and naive view of reality. Both are “planned” in the sense that they follow natural laws. A daisy growing in her garden follows the same natural laws as a daisy growing in the wild lot. And, yes, the woman intervened in the world to create her garden. But do you really believe God is intervening continually to create the universe? If you do, you are going down the road of occasionalism, the belief that God is constantly in the process of creating the universe. Again, this can become simply a question of definition. But again, believing that God has to (notice the wording: ‘has to’) constantly intervene is again limiting the power of God. Why couldn’t God design the universe the way He wanted from the instant of creation? Why does He have to keep stepping in? Did He make a mistake? Did He change His mind? See the implications? So does God ‘plan’ the universe in the sense of stepping in to go “Poof!” every few seconds? I don’t think so. If that’s what you mean by plan, I think you’re dead wrong. However, if what you mean by ‘plan’ is to create a host of natural laws (including randomness, chance, etc.), then I agree completely.
 
Evolution is either guided or not. If it is guided, it is not evolution. Evolution as we know it is purposeless and has no foresight.
What do you mean by guided? This is no better than claiming “either we have free will OR God has foreknowledge.”
 
Why couldn’t God design the universe the way He wanted from the instant of creation? Why does He have to keep stepping in? Did He make a mistake? Did He change His mind? See the implications? So does God ‘plan’ the universe in the sense of stepping in to go “Poof!” every few seconds? I don’t think so. If that’s what you mean by plan, I think you’re dead wrong. However, if what you mean by ‘plan’ is to create a host of natural laws (including randomness, chance, etc.), then I agree completely.
Well, let’s be careful here. God is not a clockmaker. It’s not only a choice between (a) God creating the perfect clock from the beginning and then stepping back and (b) God creating a clock, stepping back, then tweaking it, stepping back, then tweaking it again, then stepping back.

Both reek of deism to me. Creation is not an artifiact in that way. God is the creator eternally: yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He never steps back. But neither does it mean He’s constantly tweaking with things behaving according to the nature He provides them.
 
What do you mean by guided? This is no better than claiming “either we have free will OR God has foreknowledge.”
If evolution is guided it has purpose and engineered. It is really not evolution through blind unguided chance then.
 
Remember God may have to correct because of man’s transgressions. He did through the flood.

Consider the effects of prayer on creation and entropy. Does God allow humans to change the course creation is taking? Will He intervene if it goes bad?
 
You point to it yourself - referencing some sort of perfection in design that you’ve arrived at through a comparison with what is not perfect.
I am not God, I am human. God already knows what is perfect, without having to reference any comparisons with the imperfect. An omniscient God knows everything already, and so can never learn anything new – He already knew the answer before the lesson started.

We are often told that God is far above mere humans. If that is the case, then any comparison with a human artist, or with human design, must fail.

rossum
 
If evolution is guided it has purpose and engineered. It is really not evolution through blind unguided chance then.
Let’s assume you create a “universe simulator” which fully simulates a possible universe and can even allow for true randomness. Now let’s assume you run it an infinite amount of times and have perfect knowledge of each of these infinite simulations. Now suppose instead of just having this knowledge, you make only one of them actual.

Are the random processes of the actualized universe “guided?”
 
Let’s assume you create a “universe simulator” which fully simulates a possible universe and can even allow for true randomness. Now let’s assume you run it an infinite amount of times and have perfect knowledge of each of these infinite simulations. Now suppose instead of just having this knowledge, you make only one of them actual.

Are the random processes of the actualized universe “guided?”
Would Adam look as I planned?

Occam might object to this.

First, the simulator was not unguided, it was designed.

It would still be running.

Is there room for God’s love and creation of man in His image in your scenario?
 
rossum
I am not God, I am human. God already knows what is perfect, without having to reference any comparisons with the imperfect. An omniscient God knows everything already, and so can never learn anything new – He already knew the answer before the lesson started.
I’m sorry I don’t follow where you’re going with this.
Yes, as I said - the playwright already knows where the story is going. But he offers it for the audience to follow and learn from. The playwright already knows the end before the story started. God knows the story but allows His creation the freedom to participate in it.
We are often told that God is far above mere humans. If that is the case, then any comparison with a human artist, or with human design, must fail.
Well, yes of course. The comparison “must fail” to create an equivalency. But we don’t need an exact match. It’s enough to see that God is “like” something we know of human nature. In the same way, an ant has aspects that are compatible to a human being, and we talk about the “virtues” of ants and learn from them (Proverbs 6:6 “Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!” – or if you don’t like the Holy Bible as an example, Aesop taught the same with the story of the Grasshopper and the Ant).

But of course, a human being is far above mere ants. The comparison fails to draw an equivalency, but we can benefit from the comparison.

The same is true of the comparison of God with a human artist. God created the world out of love for his human creatures - so they could participate and learn over time.
 
Let’s assume you create a “universe simulator” which fully simulates a possible universe and can even allow for true randomness. Now let’s assume you run it an infinite amount of times and have perfect knowledge of each of these infinite simulations. Now suppose instead of just having this knowledge, you make only one of them actual.

Are the random processes of the actualized universe “guided?”
Just jumping in and basically echoing Buffalo’s comments …

I think you’d need to explain that better.

First - you created something. You can’t have “true randomness” where parameters are designed. Secondly, you cannot have “perfect knowledge” of “true randomness”. It’s a contradiction of terms. If you have perfect knowledge, then the randomness is predictable. There’s no need for a random generator if you already know the outcome of each of the generations. You basically just generate the one thing you want – which is the same as the act of creation.
Thirdly, if you have the power to create something that is infinite, then you transcend time. With that, you don’t wait around for a random generator to produce something. You already exist in the supposed future state where the generator came up with whatever you wanted.

An infinite being doesn’t wait around until the dice comes up with 7 snake-eyes in a row.

God is not bound by physical and temporal processes like a universe generator. God is not contingent on or in need of any kind of generator at all - the act of creating a universe generator (out of nothing) just puts this entire scenario to rest.

If you can create a generator that creates random universes - why not just create this universe ex nihilo?

If God was surprised by what randomness created (as people like biologist Kenneth R. Miller have claimed), is God bound by time and does not have knowledge of the future state of things? Is God waiting to find out when Jesus will return to earth? Can we contradict Jesus’ words that “the Father knows the time” of the end of the world and still retain orthodox Catholic belief?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top