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Sixtus
Guest
There is not point to arguing what one would do if ‘there was no God’. There is so arguements to the contrary are illogical
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Sixtus
Guest
We could not comprehend the mind of God, so what would be the point to Him trying to explain it to us?
The Lord said that even He has more to tell us but it would be too much for us now!!
Could you sit down and comprehend complex mathematical equations? They are but SIMPLE primitive knowledge to God. His mind by contrast is vastly superior to ours. It would be absolutely futile HIm trying to give flesh, knowledge beyond their ability to comprehend or understand.
It would be arrogant of us to assume we could understand.
Logic also says that going right back to the first event in the creation of the universe. There had to be a ‘first’ cause. Logic also tells us that ‘nothing’ cannot beget ‘something’.
If there is nothing. Then logically however long you wait, or how ever many chances you give it, unless there is a first cause, nothing remains but nothing.
Nothing is a state of ‘non-existence’. If it does not exist, it cannot turn into something. It remains for ever Nothing!
It is pointless, illogical and actually against all the rules of science to argue that ‘something came out of nothing’!
Something can always beget something else. But for nothing, it is doomed for all eternity to remain but ‘nothing’.
Go back as far as you want, but ultimately there has to be a ‘first cause’. Logic tells us the first cause has to be God.
Any other ‘first cause’ has to be created by something independent of and pre-dating the first event but which causes the first event. Else there can only remain nothing.
Nothing can do nothing for itself. It always remain but nothing
Put another way, ‘non-existence’ cannot ‘create’. Only a creator can create the first existence or first event.
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JimO
Guest
I know exactly how you feel. The problem for me has always been with feelings. My faith used to be linked to my feelings, which is an unstable foundation. When I felt good about God, I thought my faith was strong and when I didn’t, I thought my faith was weak. Over the years I have learned that faith has nothing to do with feelings.
I have made a choice. I have examined the evidence and the alternatives and I have chosen to believe. Even when the Eucharist looks like nothing more than a wafer, I still kneel and pray because I have made my choice. Personally, I think this is where God wants us. He wants us to choose Him when it’s difficult. Anybody would choose God when it’s easy; when He makes them feel good. But, God is pleased with our faith. I don’t know why, but He is. Feelings do come, but they can go away too. It’s nice when they’re there, but we cannot rely on them.
Also, we cannot approach God with only our minds. A scientist who converted once said that when he was in the laboratory, he just couldn’t believe in God, but when he was hiking in the mountains, he just knew God was there. God designed us to encounter Him with our entire being - mind, body, emotions, will, and spirit. Often, people wrestle with God’s existence solely with the intellect, which is limited. Oor, as I said above, they will approach it from an emotional basis. But, God wants the whole person and He wants us to choose Him freely.
The bottom line for me is that there is plenty of evidence that God is there, but we cannot “prove” His existence because He created the universe, is not contained by the universe, and, therefore, cannot be defined by the universe. We examine the evidence - physical, philosophical, historical, and spiritual evidence and we make a choice. When the doubts come, we decide to believe despite them.
Regarding temptations, nobody is ever happy giving in to every whim and “having everything”, whether they believe in God or not. I am at peace with my choice. I might not “feel happy” all the time, but I have what I have always sought - interior peace.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
I have been thinking about this alot lately. Mind you I do believe that there is a God. But what I have been thinking is about people like you who arent sure.
My friend and I were talking about how you can see God(so to speak) in nature and man alone. I mean the physical make-up we have. Scientists say we were created by a single cell or we were created out of nothing. How can nothing create nothing
Look at how intricate the human body works. All the different facets of our body. The inner ear, the brain, the heart, BIRTH
It all has a very distinct way of working. I dont even know how scientists or people for that matter could equate humans with plants. Look at all the different species of flowers and what about trees and grass. They all work just a little different. Then their are animals–they are not created equal.
How could all of this be created from ONE SINGLE CELL into all the intracacies and vast differences there are in this world.
And then when you had the stories and truths of the bible it all just fits and makes sense.
For me anyway.
I think it takes more faith to believe there is no God or that the earth and everything in it was created by a single cell.
My friend and I believe most people probably dont pause enough to think about how different living things are and how e each species has its own intricate workings apart from each other.
I just believe only God(a supreme being)could EVER have thought this through and created such amazing creatures.
I also think God created space as a playground for us humans so to expand our minds and be amazed and in awe of how vast God must be.
Just my HO
I have been thinking about this alot lately. Mind you I do believe that there is a God. But what I have been thinking is about people like you who arent sure.
My friend and I were talking about how you can see God(so to speak) in nature and man alone. I mean the physical make-up we have. Scientists say we were created by a single cell or we were created out of nothing. How can nothing create nothing
Look at how intricate the human body works. All the different facets of our body. The inner ear, the brain, the heart, BIRTH
It all has a very distinct way of working. I dont even know how scientists or people for that matter could equate humans with plants. Look at all the different species of flowers and what about trees and grass. They all work just a little different. Then their are animals–they are not created equal.How could all of this be created from ONE SINGLE CELL into all the intracacies and vast differences there are in this world.
And then when you had the stories and truths of the bible it all just fits and makes sense.
For me anyway.I think it takes more faith to believe there is no God or that the earth and everything in it was created by a single cell.
My friend and I believe most people probably dont pause enough to think about how different living things are and how e each species has its own intricate workings apart from each other.
I just believe only God(a supreme being)could EVER have thought this through and created such amazing creatures.
I also think God created space as a playground for us humans so to expand our minds and be amazed and in awe of how vast God must be.
Just my HO
S
Sixtus
Guest
You think that we are marvelous in how God created us.
We are not alone in creation. He also created Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominations, Powers, Cherabim and Seraphim.
Now that really is amazing
We are not alone in creation. He also created Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominations, Powers, Cherabim and Seraphim.
Now that really is amazing
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
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Sixtus
Guest
All for Him,
That is assuming that is ‘all’ He created which knowing our God…I very much doubt it! Bet there are at least 100 times more species we don’t even know about yet!
Congratulations by the way, two more and you have hit the grand number. Then you will have earned your spurs.
God bless you
That is assuming that is ‘all’ He created which knowing our God…I very much doubt it! Bet there are at least 100 times more species we don’t even know about yet!
Congratulations by the way, two more and you have hit the grand number. Then you will have earned your spurs.
God bless you
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Valke2
Guest
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Valke2
Guest
Are you saying GOd could not accomplish this?
And yet, God is No thing. I don’t see how logic concludes that God is the first cause. Certainly, logic can’t be used to say that the First Cause has an intimate interest in humans or history.
I don’t think that is a correct statement. Science certainly has looked at and given theories on something coming out of nothing. And if you believe in a God which is not a physical being, and you believe that God created everything, then you are essentially arguing that everything was created out of nothing.
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Sixtus
Guest
Exactly, I am saying that God would not try to give a worm the knowledge it would need to achieve a PhD because He knows its limitations. That does not mean He could not create a worm capable of a PhD. Rather, as a worm exists in creation, He would not impart His vast knowledge to it, as He understands its inability to comprehend.
Quote:Logic also says that going right back to the first event in the creation of the universe. There had to be a ‘first’ cause. Logic also tells us that ‘nothing’ cannot beget ‘something’.
If there is nothing. Then logically however long you wait, or how ever many chances you give it, unless there is a first cause, nothing remains but nothing.
Nothing is a state of ‘non-existence’. If it does not exist, it cannot turn into something. It remains for ever Nothing!
And yet, God is No thing. I don’t see how logic concludes that God is the first cause. Certainly, logic can’t be used to say that the First Cause has an intimate interest in humans or history.
God is God. He is neither matter or ‘Thing’. He is ALL.
Argue it however you want, were there no God and there was nothing, then what exists is ‘nothing’. Nothing cannot beget 'something and it cannot even beget nothing. It simply remains a state of non-existence.
‘Non-existance’ cannot 'will itself into existence. Since it does not have the property of ‘will’, nor the means to achieve. It possess neither energy or matter necessary for existence. It neither occupies space, neither is it ‘space’. It is simply nothing because it does not exist.
Science has looked but it has not found proof of matter ‘popping into existence’, except where that matter was pre-disposed as energy, which by definition ‘is something’ not ‘nothing’.
I do not believe in ‘a’ God, but in ‘the’ God revealed by His Incarnate Word by public and private revelation. I cannot prove to you the substance, content or nature of the private revelation since it is beyond the realm of language by which to explain it. We have no language to communicate supernatural experience. It can either be believed or disbelieved. But if it disbelieved it does not diminish by one iota the validity or value of the revelatory experience.
I am not arguing that God created ‘out of nothing’. Everything that exists was always a reality in the unfathomable mind of God. It always had a reality, even if it was untangible by the mind of human intelligence and reason. That is also logical.
Scripture tells us ‘before I formed you in the womb I knew you’. There was a time or state when 'nothing existed in the material universe. There was never a time or period when it did not exist in the mind of its creator. It always was. Even before it existed. That is also perfectly logical.
Dominus Forbiscum
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mlloyd
Guest
My favorite proof for God’s existence comes from Descartes, and does not really require faith to understand.
Surely you recognize yourself to be imperfect in countless respects, probably even in EVERY respect. In order to identify that you indeed have flaws, you must have some idea of perfection. How could you, as entirely imperfect, percieve of something completely perfect… do you honestly think you could form this idea on your own? Surely something must exist that is perfect in all areas in which you percieve others to be imperfect, otherwise, how could you see those things as lacking if there were not something that was not lacking…i.e. how could you see a glass as empty if there were no such thing as a full glass.
Descartes concludes that the only logical explanation is that an all perfect being (God) must have put this idea in our minds.
If that’s too confusing, I’m sure several people can explain it better than I.
Surely you recognize yourself to be imperfect in countless respects, probably even in EVERY respect. In order to identify that you indeed have flaws, you must have some idea of perfection. How could you, as entirely imperfect, percieve of something completely perfect… do you honestly think you could form this idea on your own? Surely something must exist that is perfect in all areas in which you percieve others to be imperfect, otherwise, how could you see those things as lacking if there were not something that was not lacking…i.e. how could you see a glass as empty if there were no such thing as a full glass.
Descartes concludes that the only logical explanation is that an all perfect being (God) must have put this idea in our minds.
If that’s too confusing, I’m sure several people can explain it better than I.
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Sixtus
Guest
Amen
And even before the glass was full, the concept of becoming full, always existed in the mind of it’s creator. Indeed even before the glass existed, it had a reality in the mind of God.
Therefore, He did not create it out of nothing but out of His Will for it to exist, even when it was but ‘nothing’.
‘Nothing it once was’ in existence.’ Nothing it never was’ in the creative mind of our God.
There was once a time before we existed. There was never a time when the plan for our existence did not exist in the mind of God.
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Valke2
Guest
The flaw in that logic, as I see it, is that it requires a conclusion that there is a perfect physical being, and it cannot be applied to an incorporeal God. All it takes to envision an incorporeal being with power over our lives is a bad thunderstorm and ignorance.
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SOUNDTRUTH
Guest
Is there a God?
That’s a tough question.
The religious folk believe that all of mankind are sinners. Therefore with this being the case, not one person on this planet can see truth, since truth is flawless, and man is flawed.
This then means that GOD can not be seen by mankind, nor can GOD speak to mankind( Sinners ) unless he speaks in less than truths.
It’s a bit of a dilemma indeed !
**What do you see ?
Do you see a Jesus on the Cross,
Two Heads confronting each other,
or do you see all three ?**
That’s a tough question.
The religious folk believe that all of mankind are sinners. Therefore with this being the case, not one person on this planet can see truth, since truth is flawless, and man is flawed.
This then means that GOD can not be seen by mankind, nor can GOD speak to mankind( Sinners ) unless he speaks in less than truths.
It’s a bit of a dilemma indeed !
**What do you see ?
Do you see a Jesus on the Cross,
Two Heads confronting each other,
or do you see all three ?**
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BlazingBolt
Guest
This is the Holy Spirit, God himself calling you. Try to think about how incredible that is. The forces of this world and our own flawed nature will fight against this call. We can learn to identify the seperate forces that are pulling against each other and by our own free will choose to surrender to one of them more and more. For me I discovered that I was not being pulled by 2 forces but it was more like the Spirit was pulling me and I was resisting. Faith is not an individual act or decision on our part but a response to God when we hear that call, it is surrendering to and trusting in him. This can almost feel like dying to the world. Faith is a supernatural and gratuitous gift from God that we should give thanks for. Faith is something that grows in us, it becomes more mature as we feed it, embrace it, and surrender to it. It is a journey that began when God called you and it will not always be easy.
Also remeber that religion is not simply a bunch of rules and doctrines. That was what the Law of Moses was before Christ came and as Paul says the law condemns and brings death. The Jews always ended up failing to keep the law. Christ came to save and bring life and through the Holy Spirit he can live in you and all of us. We rely on the grace of God to live as he wants us to, for the law to be written on our hearts, and only in this way can we be made acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
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BlazingBolt
Guest
I struggled with this too after I came back to the Church from being atheist/agnostic. I would say to just study and learn as much about it as you can and always BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF and trust that the Holy Spirit will reveal it to you. Eventually the Holy Spirit will make you understand as you grow more mature in your faith. You can’t make yourself believe it by trying hard. Attending Mass and spending time in adoration is still highly recommended although I don’t think you should receive if you don’t believe. Receiving is also questionable if your struggling with masturbation as this could be a Mortal Sin (search out some threads on this subject for some good advice on how to deal with it). Avoiding sin will also strengthen your relationship with God and allow you to receive more grace which will make it more likely for the mystery of the Eucharist to be revealed and easier to avoid sin which will lead to even more grace, it is a great positive cycle.
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TOP
Guest
Sometimes a leap of faith is needed. After I came back to the church after being away all of my adult life, I was learning about my faith. When I found out that as a catholic I was to believe in the real presence in the eucharist, I had my doubts. One day I decided to go to adoration. I didn’t know what to do , so I read the bible as I sat there and prayed. The whole time I was there I was looking at the montrance and wondering why someone would frost the image of jesus in the glass. It looked like it was etched in the glass or something. It wasn’t until the second time I went to adoration, months later, that I then realised the glass was clear. That is when I started to believe in the real presense of christ in the eucharist. Tim
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Valke2
Guest
That shows a remarkable ignorance of what Judaism is.
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JimO
Guest
Although you don’t agree, I’m sure that you understand that Christians believe that Corporal Being to be Jesus.
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Valke2
Guest
Yes. But there is also the incorporal God. Christians do not limit God to a perfected human form. I’m actually fond of Descartes reasoning and have heard it used by A.J. Heschel on occassion. I’m just not sure I can agree with the proposition that if something can be conceptualized by us, than it must exist in reality.
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