L
levi86
Guest
Amen Church Militant, if a protestant had all the facts they’d be Catholic 
- Status
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
That is **not **what the Catholic Church teaches. Please get your facts straight.
Again, **not **what the Catholic Church teaches.
The Catholic Church does not have “meaningless rituals.”
We don’t claim that they don’t have truth. They just don’t have **all **the truth.
And this makes it okay? It’s okay to ignore Christ’s plea that we all be one because long ago some people bickered among themselves?
John 3:5 tells us that we’re born again of water and of the Spirit. I don’t see anything about water in your statement.
J
jbenal
Guest
Traditional Ang:
Since when were Anglicans not protestants?
J
jbenal
Guest
Boy, I don’t know where to even start with this one…
Alfie:
Alfie:
And that’s the way it should be. After all, why do we need salvation in the first place? Because we’ve sinned. God created us in his own image and we, as humans, have tarnished it through sin. Our actions caused us to need salvation, therefore, it’s our own actions, along with God’s grace, strength, and help, to obtain salvation. If you want to talk about pride, look in the mirror if you honestly think you have to put forth exactly no effort to obtain your own salvation.
Alfie:
Alfie:
Faith, by definition, is believing something is true even though we can’t prove it. The Church is full of examples requiring faith. If God told us everything and everything, then there would be no need for faith. Then what would we have? We’d have a church that just followed instructions. There’d be nothing to believe in and nothing to hope for, because it would all be factualized.
Alfie:
IMHO, the Church was in some real need of reform at the time, especially with regard to all of the political intrigue of the day, but we could debate for many weeks about it and it’s beyond the scope of this forum. The key point I wanted to make was that basic belief of the Church was not the issue of the Reformation. However, poor handling by many parties caused it to balloon out of control into the schism it is today.
Alfie:
Alfie:
Alfie:
Keep it coming all you protestants out there. We’ll all get to the truth in due time.
P.S. I know someone is going to jump on me for carving up Alfie’s post and allegedly taking him out of context and all that. There was just so much disinformation is there, it had to be taken in small doses.
“All truckfuls of manure are emptied one shovel at a time, resulting in a bountiful harvest.” -Anonymous
And how do you think we get grace? The Sacraments!!!, or as you refer to them “those meaningless rituals that will impress God.”
Protestants think all you have to do is show up and you’re saved. It doesn’t work that way. God and Christ have put forth their effort in ensuring our salvation. Now it’s our turn to pony up. There is no free ride. God and Christ gave us the tools and path for salvation. It’s up to us to hold up our end of the bargain by doing what is expected of us as defined by His Holy Church.
And that’s the way it should be. After all, why do we need salvation in the first place? Because we’ve sinned. God created us in his own image and we, as humans, have tarnished it through sin. Our actions caused us to need salvation, therefore, it’s our own actions, along with God’s grace, strength, and help, to obtain salvation. If you want to talk about pride, look in the mirror if you honestly think you have to put forth exactly no effort to obtain your own salvation.
It does not. That’s pure heresy. “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me”. Enough said.
Christ did not come to earth and hand us an instruction manual detailing what he wanted us to do. He gave us a few key instructions and, through his wisdom and grace, allowed us as faithful believers to fill in the details. It’s an exercise of faith.
Faith, by definition, is believing something is true even though we can’t prove it. The Church is full of examples requiring faith. If God told us everything and everything, then there would be no need for faith. Then what would we have? We’d have a church that just followed instructions. There’d be nothing to believe in and nothing to hope for, because it would all be factualized.
No, it wasn’t. It was started as a reform movement to get the Church less involved in European politics and power struggles that were prevalent at the time and return to it’s roots as a politically neutral organization (“Give to Caesar what is Caesars…”). It also called for the opening up of certain aspects the Church to the up and coming middle class of the time (i.e. translation of Scripture from Latin to local languages).
IMHO, the Church was in some real need of reform at the time, especially with regard to all of the political intrigue of the day, but we could debate for many weeks about it and it’s beyond the scope of this forum. The key point I wanted to make was that basic belief of the Church was not the issue of the Reformation. However, poor handling by many parties caused it to balloon out of control into the schism it is today.
True. I am trying to work my way into heaven, because that’s what Christ calls me to do (Pick up your cross and follow me). But my “meaningless rituals” have boatloads of meaning (see above).
I’ll keep my pride in check on that one. I’ll let God and his Church decide what is holy and what isn’t. That isn’t for me to decide.
Again, that isn’t for anyone on earth to decide. We don’t know who is or isn’t in heaven. I just find it laughable that many protestants seem to have all of this insight into the mind of God that they “know” who’s in heaven and who isn’t. Pray for the dead, as Christ instructed. Let God sort out the rest.
Keep it coming all you protestants out there. We’ll all get to the truth in due time.
P.S. I know someone is going to jump on me for carving up Alfie’s post and allegedly taking him out of context and all that. There was just so much disinformation is there, it had to be taken in small doses.
“All truckfuls of manure are emptied one shovel at a time, resulting in a bountiful harvest.” -Anonymous
A
Anonymous_1
Guest
Alfie, My friend, it seems your understanding of things is incorrect. From your understanding of certain issues, I might reject the Catholic Church too. There are also some theological problems with your post.
first:
Before delving into this issue of grace and faith, it is important to clarify something.Your use of loaded words like to “earn grace” shows that it is your understanding of Church teaching that is incorrect, not the teaching itself.
Every grace has been won for us by Christ Himself upon the Cross. Every Grace, and Blessing and Mercy comes to us through Christ. This is the teaching of the Church. The exact definition would be “an interior supernatural gift of God bestowed on us through the merits of Jesus Christ for our salvation.” So no, we do not earn grace, we are not worthy of the supernatural gifts and blessings and mercies that God so generously pours upon us through Christ Jesus.
So Jesus Christ has merited for us the Infinite Mercy and Grace of God All-mighty. However, God has given us free will and generally does not force this grace upon us(although God could and sometimes does in extraordinary circumstances give us efficacious grace, which is just that, it accomplishes His purpose). In fact, in order to be able to Love the Lord your God, with all our Heart, Soul, Mind, and Strength, it is necesary to have free will. We have to be able to choose Him, even over ourselves and our ignorant and often foolish wants. So you say that we are saved by faith, by in the words of Saint James the Apostle, “Whats the use of saying you have faith if you don’t prove it by your actions? That kind of faith can’t save anyone…So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that dosen’t show itself by good deeds is no faith at all-it is dead and useless.” (NLT James 2:14…) No wonder Luther didn’t want the Epistle of James in the Bible!
So through Christ God bestows upon us every grace and mercy and blessing, however, it is our duty to cooperate with His grace!
This conveniently leads us to the next point id like to make. You said this:
If you want to go on Sola Scriptura, there is but one of the many references to degrees of sin. However let us look to the writings of the leaders of the early Church. These Early Church Fathers are reverenced even by knowledgable Protestants as just that, the leaders of the early Church. Click here to read what they had to say about the issue of mortal sin. But honestly, let us reason this out: is not murder a more serious offense than say stealing to feed your family, or lying to protect a friend?
Let us pretend that a gang member goes to jail and repents of his past sins and is “saved” in jail by reciting the Sinners prayer and accepts Jesus into his heart as Lord and Savior. Now let us pretend that this same gang member is released form jail and returns to his old lifestyles. This man goes on and thoughtfully, intentionally and meticuously goes about seeking retribution and vengeance from old drug dealers who owe him money by murdering them. Is this person still in good relations with God? Consider this in light of the words of Saint Paul in Galatians 2: “17But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down.”
first:
First of all, it is my understanding that it is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that salvation IS by Grace alone! But not by Faith alone!
Before delving into this issue of grace and faith, it is important to clarify something.Your use of loaded words like to “earn grace” shows that it is your understanding of Church teaching that is incorrect, not the teaching itself.
Every grace has been won for us by Christ Himself upon the Cross. Every Grace, and Blessing and Mercy comes to us through Christ. This is the teaching of the Church. The exact definition would be “an interior supernatural gift of God bestowed on us through the merits of Jesus Christ for our salvation.” So no, we do not earn grace, we are not worthy of the supernatural gifts and blessings and mercies that God so generously pours upon us through Christ Jesus.
So Jesus Christ has merited for us the Infinite Mercy and Grace of God All-mighty. However, God has given us free will and generally does not force this grace upon us(although God could and sometimes does in extraordinary circumstances give us efficacious grace, which is just that, it accomplishes His purpose). In fact, in order to be able to Love the Lord your God, with all our Heart, Soul, Mind, and Strength, it is necesary to have free will. We have to be able to choose Him, even over ourselves and our ignorant and often foolish wants. So you say that we are saved by faith, by in the words of Saint James the Apostle, “Whats the use of saying you have faith if you don’t prove it by your actions? That kind of faith can’t save anyone…So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that dosen’t show itself by good deeds is no faith at all-it is dead and useless.” (NLT James 2:14…) No wonder Luther didn’t want the Epistle of James in the Bible!
So through Christ God bestows upon us every grace and mercy and blessing, however, it is our duty to cooperate with His grace!
This conveniently leads us to the next point id like to make. You said this:
There is such a thing as venial and mortal sin. Saint John the Apostle speaks of it in 1 John 5:16 “If you see a Christian brother sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it. Every wrong is sin, but not all sin leads to death.”
If you want to go on Sola Scriptura, there is but one of the many references to degrees of sin. However let us look to the writings of the leaders of the early Church. These Early Church Fathers are reverenced even by knowledgable Protestants as just that, the leaders of the early Church. Click here to read what they had to say about the issue of mortal sin. But honestly, let us reason this out: is not murder a more serious offense than say stealing to feed your family, or lying to protect a friend?
Let us pretend that a gang member goes to jail and repents of his past sins and is “saved” in jail by reciting the Sinners prayer and accepts Jesus into his heart as Lord and Savior. Now let us pretend that this same gang member is released form jail and returns to his old lifestyles. This man goes on and thoughtfully, intentionally and meticuously goes about seeking retribution and vengeance from old drug dealers who owe him money by murdering them. Is this person still in good relations with God? Consider this in light of the words of Saint Paul in Galatians 2: “17But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down.”
A
Anonymous_1
Guest
Laslty, you referred to this verse ““But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. . .” (Isa. 64:6).”
Apart from God, our works have no lasting value, however any thing that God does hgas eternalo value. We can not achieve salvation apart from God, but when we cooperate with Gods grace and willfully allow Him to work through us and to work out His will within our lives, our righteousness is no longer filthy eh? It is God working through us!
Anyway, I hope and pray that you honestly consider some of these things. Hey if your interested, you might check out a good exhaustive book of Catholic Apologetics to get a better understanding of what Catholics believe and why. One I might suggest is “The Faith Explained” by Leo Trese, it is exhaustive and logical and clear. Very informative, helped me in my journey back to the Church! Hope this helps someone…By the way, i am not a professional apologist nor a Teacher, if i am in error about anything i have said, please tell me. It is important to keep an eye on what your saying when your dealiong with this sort of thing and if im wrong, i want to know it.
Lastly I love this:
Apart from God, our works have no lasting value, however any thing that God does hgas eternalo value. We can not achieve salvation apart from God, but when we cooperate with Gods grace and willfully allow Him to work through us and to work out His will within our lives, our righteousness is no longer filthy eh? It is God working through us!
Anyway, I hope and pray that you honestly consider some of these things. Hey if your interested, you might check out a good exhaustive book of Catholic Apologetics to get a better understanding of what Catholics believe and why. One I might suggest is “The Faith Explained” by Leo Trese, it is exhaustive and logical and clear. Very informative, helped me in my journey back to the Church! Hope this helps someone…By the way, i am not a professional apologist nor a Teacher, if i am in error about anything i have said, please tell me. It is important to keep an eye on what your saying when your dealiong with this sort of thing and if im wrong, i want to know it.
Lastly I love this:
- “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).” *
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Kay Cee:
I notice the continual correction of misinformation. That misinformation can only come from teaching and indoctrination by those who see no problem with the squabbling and the disunity commented on below.
I think that last fact is actually worse than the misinformation.
Kay Cee:
The only thing I can do is to invite Protestants to see the “Rituals” in their own Churches, and to ask why things are done that way, and then to ask how they were done in the Early Church.
If they really do ask how things were done in the early Church, they will look at something like The Didache or The Eucharist of Hippolytus (see Canon 2 in the Catholic Missellette), and they will see CATHOLIC Ritual and Sacraments. This will be uppsetting for a lot of Protestants:
Early Christian Writing - The Didache
earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
Anaphora of St. Hippolytus of Rome
sanctaliturgia.blogspot.com/2005/10/anaphora-of-st-hippolytus-of-rome.html
Anaphora of St. James
sanctaliturgia.blogspot.com/2005/10/anaphora-of-st-james.html
From the Eastern Orthodox:
**Understanding the Liturgy
By Father Athanasius Iskander **
stmarycoptorthodox.org/liturgy-history.htm
The Liturgy and Diverse Services from the Lorrha (“Stowe”) Missal May date from the time of St. Patrick
celticchristianity.org/library/stowe.html
The Lorrha Missal definitely has quite a bit of ritual!
I think that Protestants will be more willing to accept our rituals when they understand and accept the reality of their own rituals.
In Christ, Michael
I notice the continual correction of misinformation. That misinformation can only come from teaching and indoctrination by those who see no problem with the squabbling and the disunity commented on below.
I think that last fact is actually worse than the misinformation.
Kay Cee:
Regarding the rituals - to those who aren’t conscious of the ritual in their own churches, The rituals in the Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican Churches must look absolutely Bizarre, esp. if they don’t know where they come from or what they mean…
The only thing I can do is to invite Protestants to see the “Rituals” in their own Churches, and to ask why things are done that way, and then to ask how they were done in the Early Church.
If they really do ask how things were done in the early Church, they will look at something like The Didache or The Eucharist of Hippolytus (see Canon 2 in the Catholic Missellette), and they will see CATHOLIC Ritual and Sacraments. This will be uppsetting for a lot of Protestants:
Early Christian Writing - The Didache
earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
Anaphora of St. Hippolytus of Rome
sanctaliturgia.blogspot.com/2005/10/anaphora-of-st-hippolytus-of-rome.html
Anaphora of St. James
sanctaliturgia.blogspot.com/2005/10/anaphora-of-st-james.html
From the Eastern Orthodox:
**Understanding the Liturgy
By Father Athanasius Iskander **
stmarycoptorthodox.org/liturgy-history.htm
The Liturgy and Diverse Services from the Lorrha (“Stowe”) Missal May date from the time of St. Patrick
celticchristianity.org/library/stowe.html
The Lorrha Missal definitely has quite a bit of ritual!
I think that Protestants will be more willing to accept our rituals when they understand and accept the reality of their own rituals.
In Christ, Michael
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
jbenal:
When the Anglicans are part of the last group (the TAC) still in serious negotiations with the Holy Pontiff for reunification. In fact, some of our Bishops went on the retreat with the Catholic Bishops before the latest Synod in Rome, and then attended the Synod with their Catholic counterparts - TAC Bishops were allowed to speek but not to vote.
This was a historical first. The Bishops of NO other Christian Body have ever atteneded the pre-Synodal Retreat or the Roman Rynod with their Roman Counterparts. Even during the height of the ARCIC talks, this wasn’t even discussed as an option.
And, when the Anglican in question lives in an Archdiocese where the only reason the “Crusaders for the Defense of the Catholic Church” weren’t arrested at the local Cathedral for carrying a sign saying “You can’t be Catholic and Pro-Abortion” was because the LAPD refused to do the arrests. And, a famous author to keeps the name of one of the few orthodox parishes out of his reviews so the local Ordinary can’t take retribution on it. And, Another parish teaches things as bing in the Catechism that I’ve been able to demonstrate aresn’t, while failing to include things that are…
In other words, the Anglican isn’t a Protestant when his Church is in serious negotiations to unite with the Catholic Church, and he lives in a heterodox archdiocese.
Does that answer your question?
In Christ, Michael
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Sherlock
Guest
Traditional Ang,
Good to hear from you. I just read an item about the negotiations going on between the TAC and the CC—I am grateful to God for this.
Thank you for your defense of the Faith.
Good to hear from you. I just read an item about the negotiations going on between the TAC and the CC—I am grateful to God for this.
Thank you for your defense of the Faith.
R
Redbandito
Guest
What is the point of a thread like this? It is inflammatory on both sides. It makes no effort in order to truly understand either side’s point of view. It hurts feelings. I just don’t get it guys. I understand it can be frustrating dealing with people who are solely interested in flaming, but seriously. There are other ways to respond that are much more in line with Christ’s teachings and true Christian charity. We don’t have to agree on all things. However, the manner by which we express our disagreements is essential. We must seek to do all things in love. If God is truth (Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life), and God is Love, then truth must be in love. It doesn’t matter what argument you present if it is not presented in love. This thread does the exact opposite. We have now polarized, and it is a ton more difficult to evangelize in that environment. Keep it charitable, and we will find that our results are much more to our liking. The truth speaks for itself, just get out of the way.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Traditional Ang:
All this may be true, but there is still one problem. When the Church of England departed from Rome for the second time, they changed the ordination rite. Before they changed it back decades later, priests and bishops had been ordained invalidly. This led to the loss of Apostolic Succession. While there are some priests and bishops with the Anglican church with valid sacraments, there are more that do have these. They would have to do as the current converted Anglican priests do and go through parts of seminary again.
J
jbenal
Guest
Traditional Ang:
No offense, but I completely missed the point about the abortion protests, LAPD, and a “heterodox” diocese. What is a heterodox diocese? I’ve never heard of the term.
Uh…not really. When you use the term “serious negotiations”, that says to me that the Anglicans are still not unified with the Catholic Church and, therefore, still protestant. True, I will acknowledge that there has been much progress from both sides in the efforts to unify the two, but true unification has not been achieved.
No offense, but I completely missed the point about the abortion protests, LAPD, and a “heterodox” diocese. What is a heterodox diocese? I’ve never heard of the term.
J
jbenal
Guest
You know, sometimes the truth hurts.
That’s another thing that really burns my tail about protestants. For some reason, Catholics are supposed to be “understanding” of these different points of view, regardless of how wrong they are.
Am I supposed to be “understanding” of people who claim the Holy Eucharist is not the true Body and Blood of Christ?
Am I supposed to be “understanding” of people who tell me the Sacraments are “meaningless rituals”?
Am I supposed to be “understanding” of people who believe the Pope is not the true successor of Peter?
I could go on here, but you get the point.
There is one truth folks. That truth is found, or can be found, through Christ’s Holy Catholic Church. Some things are just not negotiable.
S
Sherlock
Guest
Heterodox is the opposite of orthodox. What Traditonal Ang is saying is that the diocese is known for its dissent (its heterodoxy). This is not inflammatory on Mike’s part, but a simple observation of what goes on in that diocese. Not all bishops are equal to their task…
J
jbenal
Guest
Dissent from what, the Anglican church or the Vatican?
Still confused, but thanks…
R
Redbandito
Guest
I am not disagreeing with you. That isn’t the issue. Nobody is asking you to be “understanding”. I am asking you to be charitable in presenting the truth. You certainly don’t accept the truth simply because you are a smart guy. It comes from grace. Thank God that you have been able to see the truth of the Catholic Church and then work to show others. However, if you want people to agree with you, you won’t do it by alienating them. AGAIN, you must present the truth in love. If you don’t, then not only have you departed from the truth (because there is no truth outside of love), but you have also just squandered an opportunity to evangelize. Furthermore, you may have alienated a person to the degree that they will never be able to be evangelized down the line. That is just not Christ-like. My point is, fight for the truth, but do it in a Christian tone.
S
Sherlock
Guest
“Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Your charity to others is not predicated upon getting it in return.
If they’ve never been taught otherwise, then why wouldn’t you be understanding?
Yes, because if you aren’t “speaking the truth in love” you may win an argument but lose a soul by alienating instead of drawing them in. And you will be held accountable for that.
Most Protestants I know haven’t a clue because they simply accepted what they were taught. So, yes–you should be understanding, and not bash them over the head with it. Explain to them the giving of the keys of the kingdom to Peter, of course, but do it with charity.
Of course they’re not negotiable. Truth never is. The real question is: how are you going to proclaim that truth? Look, I understand your frustration and I lose my cool too often myself. But you can really alienate people by taking this angry approach at the get-go.
S
Sherlock
Guest
The Vatican.
“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops”–John Chrysostom. The diocese of LA is not known for its orthodoxy, to put it mildly.
R
reen12
Guest
quote: jbenal
-I hold, with the CC, that the following are theological realities-
I have no problem with that.
quote: jbenal
position of another - who holds views at odds with
Catholic doctrine - is, of course, up to you.
Having read your post:
quote: jbenal
your theological position.
“Understand”, in the sense of respect, i.e., The CC teaches
that a given position reflects theological reality, with which
you concur.]
I both understand and respect these views, while not sharing some of same.
Best, :tiphat:
reen12
If by “not negotiable” you mean:
-I hold, with the CC, that the following are theological realities-
I have no problem with that.
quote: jbenal
What you choose to do, vis a vis, “understanding” the
position of another - who holds views at odds with
Catholic doctrine - is, of course, up to you.
Having read your post:
quote: jbenal
I can say, with some degree of surety, that I understand
your theological position.
“Understand”, in the sense of respect, i.e., The CC teaches
that a given position reflects theological reality, with which
you concur.]
I both understand and respect these views, while not sharing some of same.
Best, :tiphat:
reen12
J
josephdavid
Guest
If a Protestant needs scripture here you go:
Please read
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-I
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-II
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-IV (This is Jesus teaching us how to lose salvation)
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#tradition-I We are Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone
Please read
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-I
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-II
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-IV (This is Jesus teaching us how to lose salvation)
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#tradition-I We are Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone
- Status