Is there a protestant conspiracy on this site

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Jbenal:

I think what reen is saying is that when other people (e.g. Muslims) do not accept the doctrines regarding the Holy Eucharist…to be understanding to them is not compromising your belief…it is “understanding” in the sense of seeing where they come from.

For dialog to occur, we need to know where the listener is coming from…so we can explain at their level whatever we are trying to get to. To disregard their vantage point and shove truth down their throat, they will automatically reject it without reflection or consideration.

In many ways we experience this phenomenon here all day at the forums.

in XT.
 
quote: AquinasXVI
I think what reen is saying is that when other people (e.g. Muslims) do not accept the doctrines regarding the Holy Eucharist…to be understanding to them is not compromising your belief…it is “understanding” in the sense of seeing where they come from
Hi, AquinasXVI,

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say, and I think that
you’ve said it even more clearly than I was able to. :tiphat:

I often think of St. Paul saying: I become all things, to
all men…

And I think, too, of how Christ spoke to the woman at
the well, or His parable of the Good Samaritan.

I keep asking: if faith is a gift of grace, is the way
I speak and act part of the “grace” God sends, in
calling others to Him? *

Best,

reen12*
 
Reen:

I don’t know if you’ve heard that idea: grace builds on nature…if we’re forming our human virtues, the more open to grace we are…in that sense IMHO words are seeds, it’s up to God’s grace to water it.

A good friend of mine, a numerary of Opus Dei in conversation shared with me a great thought, he said, apostolate is tone. I thought of that for a long time. I have to agree.

Talk to you again soon…I hope the rest doesn’t mind the temporary hijack here.

in XT
 
reen & XT
Talk to you again soon…I hope the rest doesn’t mind the temporary hijack here.

Not at all love the dialog and the the exercise in charity.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC
 
table salt…Sodium Chloride
Sodium by itself is a soft metal, extremley volatile and explosive when it comes in contact with moisture
Chlorine is a deadly, noxious gas
Together they form Table Salt. We use it to season food and preserve…

In the same way…
Truth without love can be blunt, disrespectful and painful
and love without truth is blind and careless

however when we present the truth in love we have something truley delightful…
 
Hey Alfie,
Answer me this please. I will paraphrase it though.
Jesus said “Peter, thou art rock and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” If Christ created a church would it not have built upon Peter, or was Jesus throwing us a curve to cause us to flounder? Also, If It was built on Peter wouldn’t it have begun to exist in the time of the Apostles? Now, I suggest you follow a history back and find which Church actually goes back to that point. And, dont tell me the truth got lost for 1500 years, because if you do you are calling Jesus a liar and a deceiver.
 
in my pursuit of truth…i came to this dichotomy…

either there is no true church…which has many implications and problems associated with it…relativism, contradiction, uncertainty, etc. This conclusion means that no church is really right.after careful examination of Scripture i came to believe that relativism is not possible in the Church.

or the true Church is the Catholic Church…

there is no avoiding this dichotomy. either there is no true Church, or the Roman Catholic Church is Church that Christ founded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Himself as the Chief cornerstone.

looking at the historical, and exegetical evidence, the conclusion that I have come to, and continue to grow in, is that the Church that Jesus Christ founded is the Holy Catholic Church. By Gods grace and the protection of the Holy Spirit it has persisted for approximatley 2005(almost 2006) years!

that was the conclusion of my journeys, hope it helps someone!
 
To bring this back on topic if I could, there really is not a protestant conspiracy but what I have noticed in my short time posting is that most protestants on this site have selective reading. They are all eager to come on and question, confront and attack us but when a Catholic responds with a good answer, it does not even get acknowledged. The protestant picks apart one of the weaker responses and pounces all over that one.
 
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Anonymous_1:
in my pursuit of truth…i came to this dichotomy…

either there is no true church…which has many implications and problems associated with it…relativism, contradiction, uncertainty, etc. This conclusion means that no church is really right.after careful examination of Scripture i came to believe that relativism is not possible in the Church.

or the true Church is the Catholic Church…

there is no avoiding this dichotomy. either there is no true Church, or the Roman Catholic Church is Church that Christ founded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Himself as the Chief cornerstone.

looking at the historical, and exegetical evidence, the conclusion that I have come to, and continue to grow in, is that the Church that Jesus Christ founded is the Holy Catholic Church. By Gods grace and the protection of the Holy Spirit it has persisted for approximatley 2005(almost 2006) years!

that was the conclusion of my journeys, hope it helps someone!
Is there any particular reason you decided against the Orthodox faith? I understand this may get us off topic and I would just appreciate your thoughts, You can send me a private message if you wish.
BrianH
 
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Anonymous_1:
in my pursuit of truth…i came to this dichotomy…

either there is no true church…which has many implications and problems associated with it…relativism, contradiction, uncertainty, etc. This conclusion means that no church is really right.after careful examination of Scripture i came to believe that relativism is not possible in the Church.

or the true Church is the Catholic Church…

there is no avoiding this dichotomy. either there is no true Church, or the Roman Catholic Church is Church that Christ founded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Himself as the Chief cornerstone.

looking at the historical, and exegetical evidence, the conclusion that I have come to, and continue to grow in, is that the Church that Jesus Christ founded is the Holy Catholic Church. By Gods grace and the protection of the Holy Spirit it has persisted for approximatley 2005(almost 2006) years!

that was the conclusion of my journeys, hope it helps someone!
If the Catholic church was really the true church it would not have kept the common people from reading their Bibles. It would not have opposed the Bible being translated into all the various languages in the world and it would not have used Latin for its Bible. Jesus did not speak Latin.
 
That’s as illogical as saying you aren’t a Christian because you sinned last week. Aside from the fact that your info on Catholicism and the Bible is unsubstantial info most likely cut and pasted from a fundy website.
 
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Alfie:
If the Catholic church was really the true church it would not have kept the common people from reading their Bibles. It would not have opposed the Bible being translated into all the various languages in the world and it would not have used Latin for its Bible. Jesus did not speak Latin.
This is a load of non-factual bunkum Alfie. You need to toss those biased and bigoted “histories” that you have been listening to and get your facts straight.

You have been very badly decieved…
Better have a look at this chapter from Where We Got the Bible on the vernacular translations before Wycliff. The allegation is historical bunkum.

You also need to get the Beginning Apologetics Series especially # 7 and have a look on page 38.

"Before Gutenberg printed the first Bible around 1455 (A Catholic version in Latin with 73 books) there were already popular translations of the Bible and the Gospels in English, Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemiam, and Hungarian."

"**There were nine editions of the Bible in German by the time Martin Luther was born in 1493 and twenty-seven editions in German before Luther published his own in 1520.

Before** the first Protestant Bible was printed, more than 600 editions of the Catholic Bible had been printed in Europe, of which 198 were in the languages of the people."

(Where We Got the BIble, pages 69,74,& 75)

You can allege all that stuff if you want, but it’s just not true and that means you need to check out your sources against the facts of history.

Why would they tell you something that was wrong if they knew what they are talking about?

Latin was the language of scholars and for most of history those who went to school and could read read Latin. The common people were not literate. They didn’t have the time or resources, much the same as illiterate common people in third world countries today do not. :eek: Are we responsible for keeping the Word of God away from them too? Or is that your fault because you have more than one Bible and have not shared that with them even though they do not speak, read, or write English, nor do they read or write their own native language?

How do you figure that the Word of God was copied Alfie? Do you suppose that the apostles just bopped down to the Jerusalem Kinko’s and zapped off copies of the Gospel of John for distribution?

The FACT is that the Bible was hand copied by Catholic nuns and monks in Latin because that was the common language of the clergy and they could translate it and read it to the people. How long do ya think it’d take you today Alfie, if you had to sit down and hand copy the entire Bible word for word accurately? Would you have time for anything much else? Well think about that because that is precisely what went on prior to Gutenberg’s printing press. It made Bibles rare, expensive, (since the copiests had to live too!) and so that meant that churches chained them to the pulpits…for the same reason that we chain pens to the desks at the bank and phone books to the booths. SO EVERYBODY CAN USE THEM.

Jesus didn’t speak English either Alfie… He spoke Aramaic like all the other Jews in Palestine at the time…why else did he call Peter “Cephas”, and cry out “Eloi eloi lama sabacthani” from the cross. That sure as vitam aeternam ain’t Greek!

So since you are wrong about all these things that must mean that there is good evidence of a couple of other important things:
  1. The folks who taught you all that didn’t really know what they were talking about, and might well be wrong about other important things as well, and,
  2. That the Catholic Church could indeed be the original church that Jesus founded and therefore the original and true Christian church, and that we could very well be right about other important things as well. :eek:
Pax tecum,
 
Church Militant:
This is a load of non-factual bunkum Alfie. You need to toss those biased and bigoted “histories” that you have been listening to and get your facts straight.

You have been very badly decieved…
Better have a look at this chapter from Where We Got the Bible on the vernacular translations before Wycliff. The allegation is historical bunkum.

You also need to get the Beginning Apologetics Series especially # 7 and have a look on page 38.

"Before Gutenberg printed the first Bible around 1455 (A Catholic version in Latin with 73 books) there were already popular translations of the Bible and the Gospels in English, Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemiam, and Hungarian."

"**There were nine editions of the Bible in German by the time Martin Luther was born in 1493 and twenty-seven editions in German before Luther published his own in 1520.

Before** the first Protestant Bible was printed, more than 600 editions of the Catholic Bible had been printed in Europe, of which 198 were in the languages of the people."

(Where We Got the BIble, pages 69,74,& 75)

You can allege all that stuff if you want, but it’s just not true and that means you need to check out your sources against the facts of history.

Why would they tell you something that was wrong if they knew what they are talking about?

Latin was the language of scholars and for most of history those who went to school and could read read Latin. The common people were not literate. They didn’t have the time or resources, much the same as illiterate common people in third world countries today do not. :eek: Are we responsible for keeping the Word of God away from them too? Or is that your fault because you have more than one Bible and have not shared that with them even though they do not speak, read, or write English, nor do they read or write their own native language?

How do you figure that the Word of God was copied Alfie? Do you suppose that the apostles just bopped down to the Jerusalem Kinko’s and zapped off copies of the Gospel of John for distribution?

The FACT is that the Bible was hand copied by Catholic nuns and monks in Latin because that was the common language of the clergy and they could translate it and read it to the people. How long do ya think it’d take you today Alfie, if you had to sit down and hand copy the entire Bible word for word accurately? Would you have time for anything much else? Well think about that because that is precisely what went on prior to Gutenberg’s printing press. It made Bibles rare, expensive, (since the copiests had to live too!) and so that meant that churches chained them to the pulpits…for the same reason that we chain pens to the desks at the bank and phone books to the booths. SO EVERYBODY CAN USE THEM.

Jesus didn’t speak English either Alfie… He spoke Aramaic like all the other Jews in Palestine at the time…why else did he call Peter “Cephas”, and cry out “Eloi eloi lama sabacthani” from the cross. That sure as vitam aeternam ain’t Greek!

So since you are wrong about all these things that must mean that there is good evidence of a couple of other important things:
  1. The folks who taught you all that didn’t really know what they were talking about, and might well be wrong about other important things as well, and,
  2. That the Catholic Church could indeed be the original church that Jesus founded and therefore the original and true Christian church, and that we could very well be right about other important things as well. :eek:
Pax tecum,
The first time the Bible was officially forbidden to the common people by the Catholic church was when it was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia in the year 1229.
 
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Alfie:
If the Catholic church was really the true church it would not have kept the common people from reading their Bibles. It would not have opposed the Bible being translated into all the various languages in the world and it would not have used Latin for its Bible. Jesus did not speak Latin.
Alfie, why do you write this? Don’t you realize you are displaying a wealth of ignorance with this statement?

Think about it… you are accusing the Church, the entity that single-handedly preserved the Bible for 1100 years, of keeping it away from us. The Catholic Church authorized 100’s of interpretations of the Bible, long before the Reformation.

Latin Bibles? Over 90% of the people who could read, read Latin. Wouldn’t it be unwise to have a Latin Bible if every literate person read Latin? A little facts to back up your statements would help.

God Bless!

Notworthy
 
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Alfie:
The first time the Bible was officially forbidden to the common people by the Catholic church was when it was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia in the year 1229.
Uh, not quite Alf…

From Catholic Answers (I didn’t paste the link but you can search in the tracts section):

Item: “Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia . . . [A.D.] 1229.”

This looks rather damaging, but Boettner has his history completely wrong. The first thing to note is that the Index of Forbidden Books was established in 1559, so a council held in 1229 could hardly have listed a book on it.

The second point is that there apparently has never been any Church council in Valencia, Spain. If there had been one, it could not have taken place in 1229 because Muslim Moors then controlled the city. It is inconceivable that Muslims, who were at war with Spanish Christians, and had been off and on for five centuries, would allow Catholic bishops to hold a council in one of their cities. The Christian armies did not liberate Valencia from Moorish rule until nine years later, 1238. So Valencia is out.

But there is another possibility, and that is Toulouse, France, where a council was held in 1229. And, yes, that council dealt with the Bible. It was organized in reaction to the Albigensian or Catharist heresy, which held that there are two gods and that marriage is evil because all matter (and thus physical flesh) is evil. From this the heretics concluded that fornication could be no sin, and they even encouraged suicide among their members. In order to promulgate their sect, the Albigensians published an inaccurate translation of the Bible in the vernacular language (rather like the Jehovah’s Witnesses of today publishing their severely flawed New World Translation of the Bible, which has been deliberately mistranslated to support the sect’s claims). Had it been an accurate translation, the Church would not have been concerned. Vernacular versions had been appearing for centuries. But what came from the hands of the Albigensians was an adulterated Bible. The bishops at Toulouse forbade the reading of it because it was inaccurate. In this they were caring for their flocks, just as a Protestant minister of today might tell his flock not to read the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation.
 
alfie,i feel so sorry for you.i agree 100% of some of the posters here,that you have been deceived.i was in your shoes before.i was a catholic,joined a non denominational group,allowed myself to be brainwashed/deceived about the teachings of rcc.but after a few years,i realized that the pastor was interested more on how much money he can accumulate from us,instead of saving our souls.i left.many members are still hanging around,while the pastor is jetsetting around the world,and will tell his flock about his escapades.i went to a similar church and the pastor was not trustrable at all.then,i decided to return home to rcc,for more than 10 years now and will never leave her again.my mission now is to catechize my siblings who became rabid anti catholic,typical of former ones.my sister has stopped going to her non denominational church and my bro and his famili,who were very dedicated to their baptist church,never miss sunday worship,are now rarely attend their worship services. .pray to the holy spirit that he will enlighten your mind about jesus christ church,which is the rcc.lastly,remember those converts that narrate their conversion stories on ewtn.majority of them are not just followers,they were leaders of their former congregation!some of them were rabid anti catholics, just like you.come to think of it.happy new year!
 
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Alfie:
The first time the Bible was officially forbidden to the common people by the Catholic church was when it was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia in the year 1229.
You really DO need to get rid of that Boettner list that you are working off of and stay on the topic of this thread. Boettner intentionally misrepresents the facts…that’s why no one but the people who don’t do their own homework would believe his tripe.

“Is there a protestant conspiracy on this site?” No, I don’t think so, BUT…

Is there a non-Catholic conspiracy to misrepresent the facts and (if it were possible) the Catholic elect of God? I would have to say (sadly) that there is evidence right here in this thread that such a conspiracy could possibly exist. Oh terror of terrors! :rolleyes:
Pax vobiscum,
 
There are many people, and it seems Alfie is one of them, that hate the mispresented Catholic Church. The truth is, I would too if the Catholic Church was the Church presented to me by my protestant youth pastors and leaders. But because the Church is not the Church that has been portrayed by Protestants, more and more Protestant laity and clergy who reject ignorance and look at the facts are coming to the Church.
 
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Alfie:
If the Catholic church was really the true church it would not have kept the common people from reading their Bibles. It would not have opposed the Bible being translated into all the various languages in the world and it would not have used Latin for its Bible. Jesus did not speak Latin.
Latin was the educated language, the language of the theologians, the language of business. Much like English is today. If you could read at all, chances were you could read Latin. And only our Western Latin-rite uses Latin as the official translation. Our sister eastern churches still united with the pope of Rome, use their vernacular and have for centuries. Quit throwing out baseless accusations, and please study your true Christian history. The Syriac Catholic Church (an eastern rite sui iuris Cahtolic Church united with the pope) uses Syriac (a dialect of Aramaic) for all of its official documents, including Scriptures and liturgy.

Oh, and by the way, the Index of Forbidden Books was not around until 1559. There was no Council of Valencia either.
 
Oh, my…first we had :eek: Nestorius, & now we’ve gone to:eek: Lorraine Boettner.
Would anybody like to lay any bets as to the next poor, deluded soul make an appearance???:rolleyes:

Alfie, my friend, Boettner might have made a wonderful fantasy writer, but when it comes to history??:whacky:
 
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