Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[Isaac14]

As for the papal primacy issue: I’m wondering if the Orthodox fear that, if restoration occurs; that Rome would become a heavy handed micromanager that would tear up and overturn centuries of Eastern tradition and theology arbitrarily and impose a Latinization program.

I think there’s plenty of history that, at a minimum gives the Orthodox pause.

Latin heavy-handedness here in America within the last 100 years directly led to the formation of both the Orthodox Church in America and the American Carpatho-Russian Diocese. Latin bishops prohibited a married Eastern clergy and tried to suppress Eastern practices. I think it’s just been within the last decade that Eastern Catholics in the US have been allowed to have married clergy.

Even on this board, I get the sense that Eastern Catholics are tolerated, but really should be Latin at heart, even if they retain a veneer of Eastern practice.

 

[Michael16]

I’m so sorry we were such jerks, @Isaac14 and @AlNg; I didn’t know.

So, you guys need to hear it from us, and be able to trust it; that we won’t knock you guys down and make you into Latins?

As for the Latin view of ECs: I’m not aware of any explicit anti Eastern bias or unspoken “ Be Latin or you’re not really Catholic “ attitude.

When I first got here, I didn’t even know we had Easterners in the Church. Afterwards, my attitude was just a “ I’m not sure what they believe; so I’m not sure how to interact with them “ sort of thing.

Once I read some of their posts, read up on Orthodox theology and read Catholic Answers’ 20 Answers: Eastern Catholicism; I found a lot of beauty and value in Eastern theology, liturgy and practices.

In fact: I’ve already incorporated some Eastern concepts into my Latin faith and I’m beautifully enriched because of it.

 

[AlNg]

as we both pretty much teach the same thing IMHO.

I don’t think so.

 

[Michael16]

Okay, @AlNg; I’ll bite.

Where do you think not?

 

[twf]

The theology of universal jurisdiction is the sticky point. I don’t think practice is even an issue anymore. I don’t see Rome arbitrarily interfering in the decisions of the Eastern synods already in full communion with Rome. At least I sure hope not. (The tiny Eastern Catholic Churches that do not have their own synods are a different matter).

 

[AlNg]

So, you guys need to hear it from us, and be able to trust it; that we won’t knock you guys down and make you into Latins?

How do you explain the treatment of the Orthodox Serbs in the Jasenovac concentration camp ?

 

[Michael16]

I’ll admit, @AlNg that the Croats were being blind and prejudiced jerks and their actions against your Serb brothers and sisters is unjustifiable.

I earnestly wish I go back in time and undo that for you. I’m sorry.

 

[Isaac14]

I’m so sorry we were such jerks, @Isaac14 and @AlNg; I didn’t know.

So, you guys need to hear it from us, and be able to trust it; that we won’t knock you guys down and make you into Latins?

In fairness, both sides have at various points in history been jerks to each other. There are still plenty of Orthodox that hold less than charitable views of Catholics.

At some point we have to get past the past, and look forward. The Catholic/Orthodox dialogue represents a big step in the right direction. There’s much work yet to be done, to be sure, but we’ve got to start somewhere.

The statements and other documents of that can be found here.

I think the documents of the North American dialogue are also worth reviewing.

 

[Michael16]

I agree, @Isaac14; that we need to put the past behind us and move on. We can’t go back and fix what our ancestors did to each other.

All we can do is hold out our hands to each other and try to make things better now and for the future.

This Latin is doing his part.

Btw, I checked out the link you shared. I’m not sure where to start. Maybe from the beginning in ‘65?

I’m sorry. It confuses my hierarchical Latin mind that there’s no central authority in your system to reference like ours.

 

[AlNg]

I’ll admit, @AlNg that the Croats were being blind and prejudiced jerks and their actions against your Serb brothers and sisters is unjustifiable.

But why did the Ustase exert such a great effort to torture and murder innocent Serbian Orthodox people, including children. This happened less than 100 years ago.

 

[Michael16]

@AlNg; I don’t know. My guess is: It was a combination of nationalism, racism, anti Orthodox sentiment and resentment against the Yugoslav state that tried to weld disparate peoples together under the Serb monarchy.

Maybe we just forgive each other?

I say that because, as a Latin Catholic; I’ve been very angry at Luther for years because of what he did to the Latin Church and the world at large. I’ve had to learn to forgive him and let him go so I can focus on the here and now and live the best Christian life I can in the mess his revolution left behind in the West.

I hope that by sharing this with you; it might help you in your anger against the Ustase.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

With this understanding of the Orthodox system, what duties and prerogatives does an EP have when brother bishops appeal to him?

Canonically speaking, EP is final arbiter in every appeal- however, because Orthodoxy works how it works, even if he does rule on something, others can just refuse to acknowledge his authority or fact appeal was made, or anything else. Basically, EP can speak out loud and that’s it. This lack of central authority is also what makes issues within Orthodoxy hard to solve, however small they are.

Orthodoxy definitely seems to prefer discussion and consensus rather than a top-down decision.

However, if one church announces they will not attend any synods or councils chaired by the opposing one (who happens to be primus at the same time), it effectively kills room for discussion and consensus. Same way, Orthodoxy at large tends to ignore internal disputes of two autocephalous Churches. No one tries to intervene in Antioch-Jerusalem dispute and rule it out, so issue stays and unity of Orthodox Church is weakened. Dialogue, discussion, and consensus are all ideal choices in every situation, but if they are alone, they rarely work.

Per filium not filioque.

Same thing as saying “1+1 not 2*1”.

WWII Croatia and the Ustase and the Jasenovac concentration camp with Roman Catholic commandant Miroslav Filipovic.

We are deeply sorry for sins our brethren have committed, and as much as I regret their decisions and do not want to just take away attention from them, dwelling on past incidents wont get us anywhere. Massacre of Latins, Sack of Constantinople… many wrong things have come from both sides, and neither should be excused, but they should all be forgiven.

I don’t see Rome arbitrarily interfering in the decisions of the Eastern synods already in full communion with Rome. At least I sure hope not. (The tiny Eastern Catholic Churches that do not have their own synods are a different matter).

I think every Sui Iuris Church has their own synod. There have been some wrong steps from Rome, such as CCEO (but they were there for sake of unity, when there was phenomenon where Eastern Catholics were unsure about their beliefs, or others were unsure about their beliefs… and hence it was for this very purpose. Not ideal to come from Rome, but there has to be something about the East which is defining.)

I’m sorry. It confuses my hierarchical Latin mind that there’s no central authority in your system to reference like ours.

Funnily enough, reality was that before Schism, East used to be very hierarchical in nature. Metropolitans and Patriarchs exercised direct authority over local Bishops (not in a synod, and synod could correct Patriarch as it was above them, but individually Bishops were subservient to Patriarchs).

 

[Isaac14]

No one tries to intervene in Antioch-Jerusalem dispute and rule it out, so issue stays and unity of Orthodox Church is weakened

I’d have to do some digging to find news articles, but this is not true. Antioch sought intervention from Constantinople, who did nothing. More recently, the Archbishop of Cyrpess has helped facilitate discussion between Antioch & Jerusalem to resolve their issues. This process isn’t finished, but credit to Cypress for helping facilitate a healing of this situation.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

This process isn’t finished, but credit to Cypress for helping facilitate a healing of this situation.

Credit indeed. I am still positive that under Catholic ecclesiology, this would have been resolved way faster though. I do not mean to say only Catholic model works, but from certain historical events (and current ones as well), having final authority which MUST be absolutely respected when appeals are made to it works wonders. I do not get why would EP not intervene, but there is no guarantee his decision would be respected, like it is not respected in Russia-Ukraine-Constantinople semi-schism.

 

[Isaac14]

I am still positive that under Catholic ecclesiology, this would have been resolved way faster though.

Is haste a virtue?

I do not mean to say only Catholic model works

But you kind of are…

but from certain historical events (and current ones as well), having final authority which MUST be absolutely respected when appeals are made to it works wonders.

This assumes a hasty top-down imposes solution actually heals the issues at contention.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Is haste a virtue?

Is disunity inside the Church a virtue? Is it good for the faithful if it is solved quickly, or would you prefer for it to drag along for centuries? I don’t think solving some jurisdiction dispute in quick fashion can even be called haste but sure.

This assumes a hasty top-down imposes solution actually heals the issues at contention.

Yes, because it does- historically anyway. I do not remember two Catholic Churches submitting to Pope and his decision, but also breaking communion or doing anything related to disunity with other Church. I might be wrong, but from what I know about history (which is by far not extensive knowledge), even if issues arose within Catholicism, either someone left Catholic Church altogether or it got resolved way quicker than in Orthodoxy. And also, jurisdictional issues in Catholicism causing such ruckus is something I never read about…

Well, and in current age, it would be outright funny if any jurisdictional issues arose within Catholicism and lasted long enough to warrant breaking of communion.

I study in different country, and local community of my countrymen kinda took over one Czech Church. It is now under administration of Slovak Priest, has only Slovak Masses during Sundays etc. Nominally, Church still belongs to Czech Catholic Community, but no one bats an eye about other community using it extensively. Funnily enough, Slovak and Czech people are able to understand each other’s language very easily, and as such attending Mass in either language is almost the same for them. Priest who comes to serve Mass for Slovak people on Sundays is under Slovak Catholic Bishop, and even Bishop sometimes comes to serve Mass there. This would probably cause some friction in other areas or communions, but while this technically does not follow canon law and is irregular situation, Czech Bishops are very understanding about the situation and even advertise Slovak group to new students that come from our country. Simply because this is not about jurisdiction, and when in Catholicism there is one Pope and Bishops are sure no one compromises their authority, there is no need to argue over some territorial authority.

 

[AlNg]

Maybe we just forgive each other?

dwelling on past incidents wont get us anywhere.

Take a look at what is going on now.
“Christian Orthodox values lie at the heart of our moral values,” Putin said in his address to the Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church Over the past 30 years, the Russian Orthodox church has built more than 30,000 churches. And this was at least in part due to the help and support of President Vladimir Putin.

Number of churches in Russia could double, hit pre-revolutionary number within 30 years

“We build churches and create monasteries … because the people demand it,” Met. Hilarion (Alfeyev) affirmed.

orthochristian.com

Vladimir Putin embraces the Russian church

But is it getting too close to the Kremlin?

www.economist.com

The Most Important Thing to Understand about Putin’s Russia | Merion West

Merion West is an online magazine for culture and politics.

merionwest.com

Shouldn’t Catholics and all Christians be happy with the dramatic increase in the number of Russian Orthodox Churches and Russian Orthodox Christians and with the support that President Putin has given to the restoration of the Orthodox Church in Russia? And yet what do we see? We see the response of the Catholic St. Josaphat Church which has an image of Putin burning in hell?

 

[ziapueblo]

In two ways. 1st, the Pope is the symbol of unity. He’s the primate of the Church. 2nd, in the sense that Cyprian viewed it. That all bishops are the successors of Peter so the bishop himself would strengthen the local churches

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Shouldn’t Catholics and all Christians be happy with the dramatic increase in the number of Russian Orthodox Churches and Russian Orthodox Christians and with the support that President Putin has given to the restoration of the Orthodox Church in Russia?

Yes, perhaps… but at the same time, there are some signs of using Church for political influence. It is not very uncommon to have some sort of Caesaropapism happen, especially in Russia. I am no expert on the topic, and I do not want to offend anyone nor judge anyone, but from what I heard, people are somewhat suspicious of Putin and his regime.

We see the response of the Catholic St. Josaphat Church which has an image of Putin burning in hell?

Wow! It is practice of the Church to never condemn anyone to Hell. This is just sad… no, even outright disobedient to the Church. I am very surprised authorities (civil or ecclesiastical) took no steps against this. Perhaps they fear it would seem like pro-Putin stance if they did? Still, this is something that should not happen. Saint Josaphat once said “God grant that I snatch your souls and take them to Heaven”! To display image of someone identifiable burning in Hell in Church of this God’s Saint should be called sacrilege.

 

[Michael16]

To be fair, @Isaac14; when the Pope intervenes, it’s not always a hasty “ This is how it is and now shut up “ decision.

If I’m not mistaken, the Holy Father consults with theologians and canon lawyers when he’s called upon to render a judgment.

So, the Holy Father will take his time to carefully consider the matter. Assuming the situation allows him time to do so.

While I respect your guys’ emphasis on consensus and discussion; I see that central authority to definitively settle matters is an undeniable good.

Of course, the problem lies in the character of the man sitting in the chair of Saint Peter and whether or not he has the wisdom and prudence to render fair and just judgments.