Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[dvdjs]

Does that represent a change in view on the part of the Orthodox?

The view of Catholic sacraments has not been stable over time and place. This has been laess a a matter of principle, and more a tool for leverage in church relationships. And I don’t think that the practice of receiving Greek Catholics in the Carpathians, was a reflection of gracious recognition of Catholic sacraments. It was expedient cooperation in a terrible evil that exposed the hypocrisy of stringency.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The schism happened a long time ago and those alive today are not personally responsible for the sin of schism.

I understand that. I am simply saying that their jurisdiction is not of same type that Catholic one.

 

[dvdjs]

The schism happened a long time ago and those alive today are not personally responsible for the sin of schism.

I disagree with this comment. There are many alive today who intentionally opt to perpetuate this sinful schism.

Good reading.

https://www.clarion-journal.com/clarion_journal_of_spirit/2014/06/the-myth-of-schism-david-bentley-hart.html

 

[ziapueblo]

ACROD commemorates the Ecumenical Partirach (and its bishop) in the liturgy at exactly the same places that the Holy Father is commemorated in the BCC.

Must depend on jurisdiction or parish. My GOA parish only commemorates our Archbishop and the OCA I visit on occasion commemorates the Archbishop as well and not Metropolitan Tikhon, that’s if I’m remembering correctly lol.

ZP

 

[George720]

Are Antioch and Constantinople and Jerusalem three local Sister Churches? And is their Communion with one another a part of the Communion that is Christ’s Body?

Because in the EOC Ekklesiology,
the Church is the Communion of all the Local Churches
Which are one Communion in Communion…

The universal church … is not a federation of particular churches.

We are speaking of the Body of Christ,
Whose Skin is Baptism…
And Whose Life is Holy Communion…
Whose Mystery is the Faith of Christ…
Held in a purified conscience…

Federational particularity is not a relevant term…
Neither is the term Universal Church…
The entirety of that Body…
Is found in any of its Churches…
That is what Catholic means, you see…
For the Body of Christ is One Body…
For Christ is One…
Indivisibly divided is how we say it…

And Christ is Her Head…

But you know this already…

geo

 

[George720]

It may be because of where I am living, but Orthodox teaching from sources I have read, written in my own language, is very much aimed against Catholic teachings. It is as if their identity is based on being resistant to Catholicism.

That was probably from the Antiochian converts, from the old Campus Crusade for Christ, who were (and still are) recovering Evangelical Protestant Christians… I used to think it might help in converting Protestants to join with them in their rejection of the Papal Church, but found out quickly that I was wrong - The ones who convert on this basis do not generally stay converted all that well… And it is a shallow basis for conversion - As is Marriage…

Recovering Evangellicals can be a lot of trouble, I say!

But at least now, they often introduce themselves to professing Evangelicals as “Recovering Evangelicals”… Especially a Priest I know… I healthy sign of recovery…

geo

 

[Xarto]

How so?

I can see how politics plays a part in Russian Orthodox but Protestantism and Catholicism aren’t state religions.

 

[ziapueblo]

Are you saying politics has never influenced the Catholic Church?

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

That was probably from the Antiochian converts, from the old Campus Crusade for Christ, who were (and still are) recovering Evangelical Protestant Christians…

Well, in my country, Catholics are pretty much majority. Evangelicals used to be those who opposed “Papism”, but nowadays even Evangelical Bishops are very supportive of Catholicism… even to the point where some consider converting to it and try to bring their flocks with them. Apparently, Evangelical religion was brought to Slovakia by German people who were invited to settle there… and it remained long after them. These are two Churches you mostly hear about. Other Protestant denominations are almost non-existent.

Then there exists Orthodoxy. I have not been able to meet any Orthodox faithful as they live in East of the country (and even in some parts, and are mostly minority otherwise), but I have read their literature and read their explanations of the Faith when I was fresh convert to Christianity, and was searching through “denominations” (for lack of better word, as none of our Churches consider themselves to be those!) and their teachings. I also encountered some of them asking Greek Catholic Bishop questions through the internet, but that’s hardly normative. Orthodoxy has almost no real interaction on laity level with Evangelicals though, as Evangelicals are mostly situated in Central part and/or Western part of the country, and Orthodoxy is almost solely in the East.

Though, all of Slovak Christian Churches have their own unified Christian council, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Evangelicals and also other minor Protestant being all represented. They often send open letters to the state and help during organization of pro-life protests. They work together despite their doctrinal differences- something that really does make me happy

 

[dochawk]

ACROD commemorates the Ecumenical Partirach (and its bishop) in the liturgy at exactly the same places that the Holy Father is commemorated in the BCC. This custom used in ACROD may have antedated the Union of Uzhhorod.

Moe likely, they kept the Ruthenian Catholic usage from before they broke off . . . which was am abusive latinization . . .

Does that represent a change in view on the part of the Orthodox? Under communism, when massive numbers of Greek Catholics were coerced into Orthodoxy, were they rebaptized and rechrismated and, in the case of priests, reordained?

The very existence of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (the one aligned with the MP) comes from the NVKD (predecessor to the KGB). A “synod” of the pliable Ukrainian priests (the non-pliable priest and all the bishops had been jailed by the NVKD for this purpose) and ROC bishops, accompanied by their NVKD masters, purported to transfer the Ukrainian church and its assets to the MP. The actual Ukrainian church went underground for a long time . . .

The ones who convert on this basis do not generally stay converted all that well…

Kind of like those that try to flee the RCC “new Mass” to EC parishes . . .

 

[George720]

Then there exists Orthodoxy. I have not been able to meet any Orthodox faithful as they live in East of the country (and even in some parts, and are mostly minority otherwise),

I ran into a Slovak guy at a gas station - Catholic - Asked him about Orthodoxy in his country - Said they were at the east end of it - “We call them those hard core Orthodox - Always fasting, doing labors, and praying and Church Services - I couldn’t live like that!”

I replied: “Are they cheerful?”

He said: “Some are…”

Campus Crusade for Christ was Evangelical - Did Campus Crusades, got tons of converts, then back the next year to find maybe one or two still Christian… So they set out to find the Faith of the Apostles, and ended up Orthodox… I am a recovering atheist, so it was a lot easier for me than for them, because I did not have to UN-learn anything like they did…

geo

 

[dvdjs]

Moe likely, they kept the Ruthenian Catholic usage from before they broke off . . . which was am abusive latinization . . .

That seems very unlikely given the rationale for the break off.
But if true, it shows how trivial this particular “abusive latinization”, as you put it, was seen in the eyes of people who were very deliberate in their response to “abusive latinization”.

 

[Xarto]

Not to the extent it does the Russion Orthodox. You would have to go back to the 1960s in Ireland to have anything comparable. And protestantism? Which of the 45,000+ denominations are influencing politics? You would need to narrow it down to a particular denomination.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Illicit indicates that there is a violation of law. To have jurisdiction is to have competency, under the law, to make decisions and judgments. How is it possible to have illicit jurisdiction? What law is being violated? From what law does the jurisdiction originate?

In 2016, Pope Francis granted SSPX priests ordinary jurisdiction for confession and marriages and this is still in effect today.

Prior to that, the SSPX relied on supplied jurisdiction, applying the precept Ecclesia supplet meaning “The Church supplies”.

Angelus Press used to have a booklet on supplied jurisdiction. If you check out their website hopefully they still have it.

 

[babochka]

babochka:

The schism happened a long time ago and those alive today are not personally responsible for the sin of schism.

I disagree with this comment. There are many alive today who intentionally opt to perpetuate this sinful schism.

Good reading.
The Myth of Schism - David Bentley Hart - Clarion: Journal of Spirituality and Justice

Thank you for sharing this excellent article.

Everybody on this thread should take 15 minutes and read it.

I agree that the spirit of schism is alive and well today among some, but not most, Orthodox Christians. I was replying to this idea:

but setting up jurisdiction rival to Catholic Church is an act of schism…

The act of schism that resulted in rival jurisdictions happened long ago.

 

[dochawk]

That seems very unlikely given the rationale for the break off.

???

The latinization occurred long before the split.

The split occurred for other reasons, but for Eastern Christians, both EC and EO, “traditionally” often means “at the time of my grandfather’s chrismation.”

But if true, it shows how trivial this particular “abusive latinization”, as you put it, was seen in the eyes of people who were very deliberate in their response to “abusive latinization”.

No, not at all. Given the above, by the time of the split, the faithful wouldn’t generally have recognized that the usage was odd,.

And protestantism? Which of the 45,000+ denominations are influencing politics?

Generally, the one to which the prince in question belongs . . .

 

[dvdjs]

The latinization occurred long before the split.

for Eastern Christians, both EC and EO, “traditionally” often means “at the time of my grandfather’s chrismation.”

the faithful wouldn’t generally have recognized that the usage was odd,.

It is difficult to know what to make of this. If you have a Ruthenian liturgikon from the early 1600’s or earlier still that might help settle the matter. Or perhaps you could deliver some proof that, in the commemoration, there is an “abusive latinization” that has the attention of the good people who you might consider, may not be as ignorant, as your posts suggest/.

 

[dochawk]

I have no idea if any survived.

Eastern practice, predating the evangelization of the Slavs, is that the priest commemorates the bishop, the bishop the metropolitan, etc.

As such, the latin-style multi-commemoration is a latinization.

I’m not objecting to multi-commemoration, but it has no grounding in Eastern practice. For the Ruthenians to have had that pre-communion would be a downright bizarre deviation from Eastern practice.

By the time of the ACROD split, the Ruthenians had been catholizised (?) for centuries, and living would have never seen a non-latinized liturgy.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The act of schism that resulted in rival jurisdictions happened long ago.

I am aware. I am simply pointing outcome of schism jurisdiction-wise… not accusing current Orthodox of sin of schism.

Good reading.

Indeed. Very informative.

In 2016, Pope Francis granted SSPX priests ordinary jurisdiction for confession and marriages and this is still in effect today.

Thank you. Though my point was largely based upon their status prior to that. Did Rome recognize supplied jurisdiction being valid?

Eastern practice, predating the evangelization of the Slavs, is that the priest commemorates the bishop, the bishop the metropolitan, etc.

Isn’t there a chance this developed in the East without latinizing them(selves) directly? Perhaps they chose themselves to adopt it, or saw it in Latin liturgies and considered it to be a good idea? Predating evangelisation of Slavs is a loong time…

 

[dvdjs]

Eastern practice, predating the evangelization of the Slavs, is that the priest commemorates the bishop, the bishop the metropolitan, etc.

multi-commemoration, but it has no grounding in Eastern practice.

Ruthenians to have had that pre-communion would be a downright bizarre deviation from Eastern practice.

I have asked for documentation of these assertions.
(PS what it the meaning of “etc.” in the first quote?

By the time of the ACROD split, the Ruthenians had been catholizised (?) for centuries, and living would have never seen a non-latinized liturgy.

And were somehow unable to discern what was proper?