Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

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I have asked for documentation of these assertions.
(PS what it the meaning of “etc.” in the first quote?
The Liturgical Prayers of the Church - For this is the meaning of the Church at Prayer - eg Intercessory Prayers - Are both the Litanies and the specifically Ecclesiastical prayers… So we pray for the Faithful, for the Readers and Deacons and Proto-Deacons, for the Priests, and for our Bishop, and our Arch-Bishop (if we have one) and our Metropolitan, and then for our Patriarch… It stops there - We do not pray for the Ecumenical Patriarch, except in the case of special need… We are praying for him now… We pray for the sick and the suffering, captives and their salvation, and special prayers for each of those suffering tribulations in our local Church circles…

The “etc” referred, I think, to the Arch-Bishop and Metropolitan, between the Ekklesial rankings of the Priest and the Patriarch… The Head of the Local Church is the Patriarch, and he has jurisdiction over all in His Communion, and it is this jurisdictional “chain of command” that comprises our Commemorations…

Doc Hawk can correct me if I have him wrong on this… The Russian Church does multiple Commemorations…

geo
 
We do not pray for the Ecumenical Patriarch
Did you mention who “we” are?
for our Bishop, and our Arch-Bishop (if we have one) and our Metropolitan, and then for our Patriarch
Your patriarch? What if you are in a church whose Partriarch is the EP? Would you stop at bishop?

Where are these practices documented and where are they expressed as characteristic of all churches??
 
Did you mention who “we” are?
We are the EO Churches who are not in the Ecumenical Patriarch’s Local (Byzantium) Church…
Your patriarch?
Yes…
What if you are in a church whose Partriarch is the EP? Would you stop at bishop?
Then we would pray for our Patriarch…
Would you stop at bishop?
Bishops are under the Patriarch…

The order of Commemoration is according to the Good Order of the Church…

We do not commemorate other Patriarchs - Just our own…
Where are these practices documented and where are they expressed as characteristic of all churches??
I have no idea…
I am not clergy…
Probably the Service Books?

geo
 
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Doc Hawk can correct me if I have him wrong on this… The Russian Church does multiple Commemorations…
I think that if Russian Church does multiple commemorations, it is not latinization… it might be latin influence or so, but Orthodox seem to have accepted it- and surely not because they wanted to look “more Catholic”.
We are the EO Churches who are not in the Ecumenical Patriarch’s Local (Byzantium) Church…
Would you pray for EP if you were in communion with him?
Who all are included in the EP’s local Church?
Well, it’s kinda misleading. There is no “local” in EP… or at least not only “local”. By canons, EP takes authority over any area which is not taken by any other Patriarch. Hence EP practically has jurisdiction everywhere where other Patriarchs do not (and there are Orthodox communities, of course). Also, EP has right to hear appeals such as in case of Ukraine-Moscow dispute, and make rulings. However, latest EP ruling basically promoted unobedient schismatic Bishops to rank of autocephalous Church- something he has right to do, but is pretty unwise. Moscow claims he has no right to do that, and EP claims it is wise… and hence Moscow and Constantinople (EP) are no longer in communion as they boycott each other.
 
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Who all are included in the EP’s local Church?
How has that varied over time?
How is that, without documentation, you can speak for the practices of all EO?
You sound unhappy, impatient and judgmental in this post above…
Please forgive me if I have managed to offend you…
I seem to do it effortlessly and a lot…

The short answer to your last question is that we live according to the Faith and not all that much by documentation - And an autocephalous Church sets its own means of juridical organization… iow The Local Autocephalous Church is not UNDER jurisdiction, but is instead the source of it… We all have Patriarchs and Metropolitans and Arch-Bishops and Bishops and Priests and Deacons and Readers - We have had them since not too long after Pentecost, 34AD… First came the Faith, then came the organization in its service… We understand the Body of Christ to be those Apostolic Churches in Communion with one another… It can grow and it can diminish… It diminished greatly in Russia under the Atheists, and in Constantinople under the Turks, and in Egypt under Islam a little less so, but still persecuted…

I do not know who all the Churches are in obedience to the EP…
Nor do I know how they have varied over time…

I can speak for the Orthodox as any lay person can, according to the Faith I have been given and practice, and the reading I have done… If documentation is your basis for what I say, I should probably not say very much! 🙂

geo
 
I think that if Russian Church does multiple commemorations, it is not latinization… it might be latin influence or so, but Orthodox seem to have accepted it- and surely not because they wanted to look “more Catholic”.
The may have picked it up from the Latins under Tsar Peter the Notzo Great! And they may have simply inherited it from Kyrill’s discipling… Doesn’t seem like all that big a deal to me…
Would you pray for EP if you were in communion with him?
Yes, but more to the point, with the insanity swirling about him and the MP and the Ukraine, I pray for him, and them, daily, as does our Parish daily…
Moscow and Constantinople (EP) are no longer in communion as they boycott each other.
That is how problems in the Church are addressed - And right now, the EP seems very problematic, and the MP very wise… I pray for God’s Mercy on them both…

geo
 
with the insanity swirling about him and the MP and the Ukraine, I pray for him, and them, daily, as does our Parish daily…
I find that very good. I also try to play for whoever I disagree with, and also for myself… so that God may sort it out and let us both find the truth.
I see. So it is Orthodox practice to pray for First among Patriarchs, correct?
That is how problems in the Church are addressed - And right now, the EP seems very problematic, and the MP very wise…
From my viewpoint, and I am not trying to force it onto anyone, it is a mess of authority (as canons do approve of what EP has done) vs wisdom of the decision (as letting schismatics gain control over local Church as reward for their disobedience sets bad example at least). Though it does not really affect me personally, I will pray for this issue to be resolved, and may God’s will be done.
Doesn’t seem like all that big a deal to me…
Only reason we are discussing this is that some Eastern Catholics omit mentioning anyone above their immediate “superior” (hence Priest commemorates Bishop, Bishop commemorates Metropolitan, Metropolitan commemorates Patriarch and Patriarchs commemorate each other), and view practice of commemorating entire hierarchy as latinization. Your insight does help as it provides us with information that this is legitimate practice even within Orthodoxy and as such it is not practice that belongs solely to Latin Church- not one that ought to belong solely to it. Of course, this does not mean that anyone should be mandated to commemorate entire hierarchy, if there is legitimate reason, but I find commemorating entire hierarchy very charitable towards those high clergymen.
 
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With Constantinople? Maybe. But very unlikely to happen in our days. They are only willing to accept the Pope as the “first among equals”. With Moscow? Probably never. The Patriarch of Moscow is basically an anti-Catholic political puppet.
 
Only reason we are discussing this is that some Eastern Catholics omit mentioning anyone above their immediate “superior” (hence Priest commemorates Bishop, Bishop commemorates Metropolitan, Metropolitan commemorates Patriarch and Patriarchs commemorate each other), and view practice of commemorating entire hierarchy as latinization.
Not our priest! He always mentions PF, HB Sviatoslav, Metropolitan Borys & Bp. Rabin in every Divine Liturgy, Vespers, the Great Blessing of Water, Matins…
 
You sound unhappy, impatient and judgmental in this post above…
None of the above, just jotting quick question in between other things.
The short answer to your last question is that we live according to the Faith and not all that much by documentation
The discussion began, as you may, recall, with claims about the right way, wrong way, and alien way to do things. My thinking, which I think is much more in line with what you are saying, is that local churches do as they see fit to advance the salvation of their faithful.

In the particular point of ACROD, it is a diocese with a bishop “under” the EP. I think that that case also obtained in the old country before the union. The commemoration of the EP in ACROD now, or in the or country then, does not seem inconsistent with what you wrote about commemorations. Or about church governance,
 
I see. So it is Orthodox practice to pray for First among Patriarchs, correct?
We commemorate our own Patriarch - And for the EP as needed - Like now…
it is a mess of authority (as canons do approve of what EP has done) vs wisdom of the decision (as letting schismatics gain control over local Church as reward for their disobedience sets bad example at least).
The EP is creating a big mess, no question… His ties to the CIA go back to WWII, and the Ukraine has become a hotbed of US Presidential political issues involving the CIA… God willing we will get it sorted out…
I will pray for this issue to be resolved, and may God’s will be done.
Thank-you…
Only reason we are discussing this is that some Eastern Catholics omit mentioning anyone above their immediate “superior” (hence Priest commemorates Bishop, Bishop commemorates Metropolitan, Metropolitan commemorates Patriarch and Patriarchs commemorate each other), and view practice of commemorating entire hierarchy as latinization. Your insight does help as it provides us with information that this is legitimate practice even within Orthodoxy and as such it is not practice that belongs solely to Latin Church- not one that ought to belong solely to it. Of course, this does not mean that anyone should be mandated to commemorate entire hierarchy, if there is legitimate reason, but I find commemorating entire hierarchy very charitable towards those high clergymen.
As I understand the matter, it is one that is determined by each autocephalous Church, and is not an Ecumenical matter at all… I have not heard of the EOC Patriarchs commemorating each other, but what do I know?

geo
 
None of the above, just jotting quick question in between other things.
Good! I thought I had said something wrong…

It is, after all, one of my notzo-divine gifts! 🙂
Local Churches do as they see fit to advance the salvation of their faithful.
I used to think of “Local Churches” as being the same as the Parish Churches across town… I was wrong… Antioch is a Local Church - One of the Big 5 of the first Millennium - Third in the line of Honor, behind Constantinople… So yes, “Local Churches” do indeed organized themselves according to local need for the Salvation of the faithful…

One piece of Good News in the USA is that Orthodoxy here, at least the Canonical Churches, have decided to maintain Communion with one another in the USA, and not let the squabble in the Ukraine with the EP and MP conflict in any way affect our “Local” Church which is NOT YET a Local Church… So we will all remain in Communion one with another, if that works out… This is what I like to call an ontological discussion via Communion - I am comfortable with it, because I have seen it work, and it is all I know… Having an Ecclesiastical Supreme Court via the Vatican is not my bailiwick - This will get resolved in a year or three… Or a decade or three… Or so…

geo
 
Yes, the Ukrainian Catholic Church (which is the largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world) always commemorates the Pope.

It’s right there in the Liturgikon, several times @ each Divine Liturgy. In my Temple I pray thusly each Sunday:
For our most holy universal Pontiff, Francis, Pope of Rome, for our most blessed Patriarch, Sviatoslav, our most reverend Metropolitan, Boris, our God-loving Bishop, Benedict, the reverend priesthood, the diaconate in Christ, and all the clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord.
Deacon Christopher
 
Well, it’s kinda misleading.
The question is about the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese, which has a bishop who is directly under the EP (Ani do Rim, ani do Moskvi), which I believe was the structure of the church in the old country, before the Union of Uzzhorod. Is the EP the Patriarch of such churches, and is he “properly” commemorated in the liturgies of such churches?
 
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Ah, then you’re in the Eparchy of St. Josaphat in Parma.

If you’re ever on vacation in southeastern PA, please pm me. Our parish is very small and the last time we had a deacon was 30+ years ago. It would be really special to have a deacon at Liturgy even if for one day. 🙏
 
Eparchy of Chicago.

Our God-loving Bishop, Benedict…

But I’d love to visit.

Deacon Christopher
 
Oops. Sorry! Btw, Bishop Benedict was actually at the pilgrimage in Fox Chase, PA last year.
 
Isn’t there a chance this developed in the East without latinizing them(selves) directly?
That’s just not how the east works/worked.
Perhaps they chose themselves to adopt it, or saw it in Latin liturgies and considered it to be a good idea?
In the cases where the east addopted Western practices without being explicitly told to do so, the pressure to “do it the catholic way” was still the drying force.
I have asked for documentation of these assertions.
:roll_eyes:

I’ll point you to multiple discussions and uniform conclusions from folks (who, unlike either of us, can read Church Slavonic) on byzcath.org’s east & west discussions. do a search limited to that site for “commemorate bishop metropolitan primate”.

No, after watching multiple discussions with liturgists on the subject, I’m not going to go learn Church Slavonic to pull documents from your requested church that may or may not even exist (Latin practice at the time was the outright destruction of the prior books and texts. I don’t know offhand about eastern).

I can state that the uniform slavic liturgy was received by the Ruthenians as written by SS C&M with the standard byzantine usage, and the single commemoration is maintained to this day by the byzantine orthodox churches that were not formed by breaking away from a abusively latinized EC church.

Knowing what the Ruthenians started with, followed by hundreds of years of various degrees of latinization in Europe, and then flat-out abuse by RCC bishops in the US, a suggestion that prior to Uhzrod they added the mulit-commemoration which at odds with eastern practice would be what would call for proof.

And citation to old liturgicon’s aside, the “ping-pong-ping” history of ACROD through it’s descent through the US Ruthenians makes its praxis unusable as an example of what “Eastern” praxis is.

(and, yes, you’d get a similarly caustic response from me if you asked me in my capacity as an Economics professor for documentation of the slope of a supply curve, or Say’s law, or . . . and if you asked me as a lawyer for citations on the elements of negligence being Duty, Breach, Causation, and Damages. or for the principle that spring gun traps have been illegal for centuries. Acquired knowledge is for sharing, and not having handy citations for all the standard knowledge in a field acquired over decades would be a poor reason not to share with the majority that wants to learn, rather than argue).
(PS what it the meaning of “etc.” in the first quote?
:roll_eyes:

the rest of the list was further up.
 
And were somehow unable to discern what was proper? :roll_eyes:
The ruthenians in the US were not allowed, not “unable”, to keep or discern Eastern practice.

As for ACROD, it tried to keep everything the same as it was.

and “proper” is not what was at issue–it was “eastern praxis”, to which the outlier of ACROD was proposed as an example of eastern . .
Doc Hawk can correct me if I have him wrong on this… The Russian Church does multiple Commemorations…
That I couldn’t tell you.

I thought I was going to be able to make it to the Russian Catholic liturgy in San Francisco a couple of years ago when I was there for a conference, but it turned out that the rather generous time I’d padded my schedule with still wasn’t enough . . .

AFAIK, the ROC (including ROCOR) and the RC are the only Easterns that always use the full liturgy, rather than shortening and trimming to various degrees.
 
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