Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

[George720]

Declaring one’s opponent “refuted”
If it were possible to refute anyone in the Orthodox-Catholic argument, someone would have done it long ago and we’d all have been either Catholic or Orthodox.

And this is the problem, you see, with changing the Creed - This Faith is never proven in any philosophical sense, and those kinds of arguings are endless and fruitless… Which is why our discussions go round and round like water in a flush toilet… This Faith is only proven in your own flesh, and it is publicly born witness to those called by God… And this in the Power of the Holy Spirit… Indeed one’s Faith is measured in Power, as Paul said…

And this is why the addition to the Creed by the Latin Church was so eggregious… All one needs to do is look at its fruit… The fruit of that addition was schism… For a thousand years…

geo

 

[Michael16]

@George720,

On Scholasticism:

Scholasticism isn’t a horrible thing, my friend. True, we Latins can get rather disputatious and logic chopping. If you remember philosophy and history; so can the Greeks.

Part of my journey into the true Faith is predicated on the sure knowledge that God is both rational and consistent. Truth can be discerned with rational meditation.

In my Tradition, we have Lectio Divina. If you’re not familiar with it, it’s spiritual reading of Scripture with four levels:

1: Reading

2: Prayer

3: Meditation

4: Contemplation

We Latins combine all these together in our search for meaning and truth.

I’m sorry for getting out of hand, my friend. My blood got up and ran away with me. I mean no disrespect or condescension.

Scholasticism is a venerable tradition among us Latins and isn’t an elitist snobbery. Done correctly, it’s like a good conversation in which all parties enlighten and edify each other in the search for truth.

 

[George720]

The ROC should be a Church first, not Russian. I find it funny though. I remember reading somewhere that the ROC eventually became a department of the Imperial Russian government.

I hold the Moscow Patriarchate in very high regard… The Orthodox Faith in Russia was decimated under the Atheists - Almost 100% of Bishops were killed, some 80%+ of Clergy ended up in the Gulags to die, and the Confessional was mined by State Intelligence agencies for the State Apparatchik… For 80 years… The Communist Party members used their old useless grandmothers to raise their children, which they did, secretly raising them Orthodox and secretly getting them Baptized… It was these Children who inherited the atheist kingdom, and declared perestroika and tore down the walls…

Now Putin has built or rebuilt some 24,000 Churches and re-populated some 1500 monasteries in a country devastated economically and militarily… They are putting God first as their haters close in and persecute Russian Orthodox Christians living Orthodox Christian lives…

And yes, they have problems - So do we all…

geo

 

[Michael16]

@George720,

On the matter of the Filioque:

The addition of “ From the Father and the Son “ was from a local council in Spain because of a heresy that denied the Divinity of Jesus. It was the solution that council arrived at in order to weed out those heretics from Spanish churches and ensure orthodoxy.

Now, I think I can understand where the East has a problem with it: Looking at the exact wording, Father and Son; seems to imply that the Holy Spirit derives from both. A violation of the divine monarchy.

Here’s my solution:

Think of the phrase as a step by step “ this is where the Holy Spirit emanates from “ as in: The Holy Spirit flows from the Father through the Son.

This, we have From the Father and the Son.

By understanding that the Holy Spirit flows from the Father through the Son asserts the Divinity of Jesus and preserves the divine monarchy.

Am I making any sense?

I respect your position but I also must respectfully disagree with you. The Filioque isn’t the heart of the Schism. The heart of it was the thousand years of divergence between East and West and culminated in the break of 1054. It was the stupid and hot headed mutual excommunications shot at each other that broke the camel’s back.

The West attempted reconciliation in the Council of Florence and the Eastern delegates agreed to it. Sadly, the East quickly repudiated it and I’ve heard it said that the East would rather be under the Turkish turban that the papal tiara.

Sounds like pride to me.

But, as we’ve said to the Protestants and I say to you, George: The fault was on both sides.

Let’s put it away and work on the here and now. What do you say?

 

[George720]

Truth can be discerned with rational meditation.

In my Tradition, we have Lectio Divina. If you’re not familiar with it, it’s spiritual reading of Scripture with four levels:

1: Reading

2: Prayer

3: Meditation

4: Contemplation

We Latins combine all these together in our search for meaning and truth.

The Greeks are no intellectual lightweights, but they clearly understand that repentance - Deep repentance - is the real driver that God seeks from us… It is not our great understanding of Scripture and the Fathers, nor our great metanias in Church, of our wonderful meditations and contemplation of all the wonderful Mysteries of God… No, it is abject and total denial of self for the sake of God unto the attainment of the Kingdom of God… The throwing away one’s life and the world so as to take up one’s Cross of suffering in the Love of God and neighbor… Those who do these things will meet God, but only in purity of heart and denial of self and suffering in vigils and fastings and prayer that sweats blood and obedience all for the sake of God’s Love for all His creation…

Scholasticism is learning about things with words, you see… When St. Thomas encountered God, he would not even finish the Summa, and called ALL that he had written as straw (fit for manure and burning)…

Truth is encountered, not learned from the school’s, the classrooms… God is Truth, and the epistemological prerequisite for Truth is repentance, not study…

geo

 

[Michael16]

@George720,

You make a beautiful and wonderful point. Sometimes, the scholastic can lose himself in study on Scripture and doctrinal assertions. I’ve encountered this myself in my apologetics with Protestants.

The endless cracking open of Bibles and the struggle of out exegeting the other interferes with the actual contemplation and practice of the Faith.

I’ll agree.

Remember though:

When Saint Thomas encountered Our Lord, Jesus said to him: “ You have written well of Me, Thomas. What do you desire as a reward? “ Of course, Saint Thomas said: “ Only You, Lord. “

To me, the statement of: You’ve written well of Me; implies that Our Lord was pleased with Saint Thomas’ work.

One of the things I love when you speak is you bring Scripture alive. It’s not a dry, exegetical exercise with you. There’s real living Spirit in your words and understanding.

I loved how you explained to steve b how Saint Peter needed restoration from Jesus in Saint John 21. It was a beautiful explication of spiritual rehabilitation at the hands of Jesus’ love and mercy. A good showing of Jesus as physician to our souls.

One of the reasons why I love the Eastern Tradition is the heartfelt, contemplative and intuitive emphasis in Eastern spirituality. I sorely need that as I’m often a very head oriented guy.

Contemplation that leads to obedience of faith. In this, I completely agree with the East.

I totally agree with you that repentance is the real driver.

A true repentance that leads to a seeking first of the Kingdom and a thirst for righteousness. A thirst for righteousness is following Jesus in everything and the proof of a man’s faith is the conduct of his life and in how he’ll die for his faith in Jesus at any moment.

I totally get what you’re saying, my brother.

 

[George720]

The West attempted reconciliation in the Council of Florence and the Eastern delegates agreed to it. Sadly, the East quickly repudiated it and I’ve heard it said that the East would rather be under the Turkish turban that the papal tiara.

Sounds like pride to me.

Try it sometime…

But, as we’ve said to the Protestants and I say to you, George: The fault was on both sides.

The West tried to impose the Filioque on the East at the Council of Florence, and while it was able to get the delegates, under great duress - One died there for lack of food, clothing, bedding and heat - And did so under the mantle of Papal Supremacy… That is what happened… Plenty of fault on both sides… The Latin delegates made very sure that the Filioque was confessed by the Eastern delegates… Mark of Ephesus said no, and had to return to Constantinople overland in hiding to avoid arrest and being burned at the stake by Papal deputies at the ships returning to Constantinople… He made it home safely much later… St. Mark of Ephesus is his name… When the Pope learned that he had refused to sign off on the agreement, he was reported as having said: “Then we have lost!”

But both sides are totally responsible…

Saying the Filioque is now passe because the Latin Fathers no longer require it to be confessed by the Greek Creeds, AS THEY ONCE DID AT FLORENCE, does not make the Great Schism that occurred as a result of the Latin attempt to impose it on the East is a gloss that covers the need for simple confession of specific wrongdoing on the part of the infallible Pontif and contrition and repentance - And this cannot happen as long as Papal Supremacy and Infallibility is in play… So it drags on and on and on - One side with specific allegations, and the other saying "We can get along - There is plenty of wrong on both sides - And by the way, the Pope is infallible and is supreme over the eastern Churches…

Those are the issues that need addressing…

Florence imposed the Filioque on the East…

Constantinople spat the agreement out…

And fell under the Phanar without Papal forces to help…

Well, enough of the rant…

The Filioque initiated the Schism…

Papal Supremacy fueled it…

The issues are real…

There is no Papal confession of wrongdoing…

Only the “Well, there is plenty of blame to go around…”

And that won’t cut it…

geo

 

[Michael16]

Wow, @George720.

I’m sorry we were jerks. We shouldn’t have forced your delegates to say it. There was wrongdoings on both sides but I’m not going to go back and forth with you on it.

Pope Saint John Paul II did say the Creed with the EP without the Filioque in the original Greek. I hope that would be a good step in the right direction.

I still respectfully disagree that the Filioque caused the Schism and papal supremacy fueled it.

I still hold that East and West drifted apart and the storm broke with the mutual excommunications.

At least now, at the beginning of the third millennium; we’re making an effort to reconcile.

In Unitatis Redintegratio; we’re laying out for you guys that you’re self governing sister Churches according to your own disciplines. With the Ravenna and Chieti documents, there’s a sound basis, that both sides agreed to freely; for continued talks on restoring communion.

 

[babochka]

Catching up on this thread, so I’m replying to some old posts…

explained to my son that our Orthodox brothers and sisters’ tradition is that Jesus was born in a cave and the Western tradition is the stable.

Both/and… eastern and western traditions both hold that the stable where the animals slept is believed to have been located in a cave. The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, which both Catholic and Orthodox “share” ( if you can call it that), is built around that cave.

As for the Dormition, I think it’s a cool concept. No Original Sin, thus she’s not subject to death. Makes sense to me.

To be clear, in the East the Dormition refers to the death of the Theotokos and belief in the Dormition (death) is unambiguous. The idea that Mary did not die is relatively modern and Western.

 

[babochka]

Thank you so much for your posts, @Margaret_Ann.

I was afraid that you and the other ECs had a bad experience in the Church.

My experience was a little different from that of @Margaret_Ann. I grew up in a (somewhat) unlatinized Ruthenian parish in the 1970s. We had two liturgies - one in English and one in Slavonic. I received both Chrismation and Holy Communion at my baptism in 1969, which I have since learned was unusual for the time. We did kneel for the consecration until the early 1990s, but the pews were removed from the church from Pascha to Pentecost. We did not have Stations of the Cross and we did have the Liturgy of the Presanctified gifts. (By the way, regarding kneeling - I know of Greek Orthodox parishes that kneel on Sundays.)

I also went to Catholic school at the local Latin parish. The nuns quite didn’t believe I was really Catholic, even after the priest confirmed that my family was Catholic in a meeting with our teachers and the principal. My first grade teacher about had a heart attack when I tried to receive Communion at a school Mass. I was constantly corrected for making the sign of the cross “wrong”. I received my “First Communion” with my class and was required to participate in the Confirmation ceremony with my class, even though I was not being confirmed. They kind of “faked” it, with my teacher telling the bishop in a stage whisper “this is the one”.

I wouldn’t say that I was treated badly, but there was a great deal of ignorance. I’m happy to say that I encounter much less ignorance these days and people are generally more accepting of different ways of doing things. My community is home to several Eastern Catholic parishes of various types (Melkite, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Maronite, Chaldean and Syro-Malabar). These parishes are active and visible in the community and the diocese lists them on their website as a courtesy. This gives us an air of respectability to those who would otherwise be skeptical.

 

[babochka]

In Slovakia, it is quite common for them to defend them as their brothers and even point out their unity with Pope and try to really explain we are same Church.

That’s interesting. I would say that things must have changed. My pastor, who is Slovak, has said that the Greek Catholics are “hated by the Latins and hated by the Orthodox”. Obviously, “hated” is an exaggeration, but relations have not always been comfortable. This attitude also explains many of the self-imposed Latinizations in Slovakia and elsewhere. Greek Catholics have been made to feel that they must “prove” that they are not like the Orthodox.

. For example, Greek Catholic Church of Slovakia considers Filioque to be part of their tradition

That surprises me, as it was one of the provisions of union that we not be compelled to use the Filioque. It was important enough to our forefathers that it was explicitly mentioned.

 

[Vico]

…
If Christ took on the fullness of our humanity, then yes, He took on our propensity to sin, and really everything that came about as a consequence of the fall (esp. death). Yet, being God, He took all these things on without sin, and destroyed them through His death and resurrection.
…

The human nature is natural not supernatural, therefore sanctifying grace, being supernatural, is not part of human nature.

There is only one person, the Son of God, and two natures (divine and human) in Jesus Christ – with two wills. Nestorianism taught that the man Jesus Christ and the divine Logos, dwelling in the man, are two persons.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

(By the way, regarding kneeling - I know of Greek Orthodox parishes that kneel on Sundays.)

WOW. That’s amazing.

 

[babochka]

babochka:

(By the way, regarding kneeling - I know of Greek Orthodox parishes that kneel on Sundays.)

WOW. That’s amazing.

One in particular has a pipe organ!

 

[Margaret_Ann]

A Greek Orthodox church with a pipe organ? Did they purchase a building from a Protestant or RC congregation? The EO church near me strictly adheres to no instrumentation.

In my UGCC parish, the only instruments we have are “Sanctus bells” which are only used on Pascha. Father reads each verse of the Gospel in Ukrainian and English then the bells are rung 3 times. He reads the next verse in Ukrainian & English, the bells are rung again and it continues to the end of the Gospel. They’re also used when “Khristos Voskrese” and “Anhel vopiyashe” are sung too.

On Holy Thursday & Good Friday wooden clappers are used esp when processing around the Church.

Otherwise, we do everything a cappella.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

My first grade teacher about had a heart attack when I tried to receive Communion at a school Mass.

Why was your teacher shocked?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Or as Archbishop Joseph Raya wrote in one of his books (The Face of God if I’m not mistaken):

“A theologian is a man of prayer and a man of prayer is a theologian.”

Yet only 3 Saints - the Holy Apostle and Beloved Disciple John, Gregory of Nazianzen and Symeon have the title “Theologian”.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

excommunicated Constantinople for removing the Filioque from the Creed

It was for denying “through the Son”, done wrongly and invalidly by one Cardinal with anger issues, who was being ignored by another Patriarch with power issues… unfortunate time that reflects views of neither Church. One can not defy “through the Son” as professed by Church Fathers… and Greeks certainly did not.

And instead of saying “We’re sorry… Forgive us… We were wrong…” Rome says it is only for the Latin Creed, and not for the other Creeds, and besides we were theologically right???

Constantinople changes Creed, all is well because Emperor supports it and West views jt as legitimate. When West does the same, East argues they have no authority to do so…

And this is the problem, you see, with changing the Creed - This Faith is never proven in any philosophical sense

Creed exists mostly to fight heresies from misinformation. Filioque was added to fight Arianism. Many Christians who do not profess Filioque have no idea about fact Holy Spirit comes through the Son. Elaborating that fact is hardly wrong. Defining truth and confessing it can not be wrong.

The fruit of that addition was schism… For a thousand years…

It was not sole reason, neither main one. Bishop Kallistos Ware dismissed it as matter of semantics. Earlier in his life he considered it an issue but changed his mind over research.

That is one of the basic problems with the Scholastic approach - It is logic based

It shouldn’t be competition and youre right about other things, but St. Paul says reason is important and men should use it to strengthen faith… logic isn’t necessarily worthless in theology.

That’s interesting. I would say that things must have changed.

I am saying all I am from experience. It is just couple of years I am aware of ECs (I was not even Christian couple years ago). My information may come from wrong observations… but from what I have seen from Priests of Latin Church, nobody hates on Greek Catholics and Greeks have chosen to maintain Filioque in their Synod even if able to abandon it completely. It is opinion of those Bishops that it does not sound heretical in Slovak and is part of their patrimony now. Time will tell if that is true.

 

[Isaac14]

The human nature is natural not supernatural, therefore sanctifying grace, being supernatural, is not part of human nature.

There is only one person, the Son of God, and two natures (divine and human) in Jesus Christ – with two wills. Nestorianism taught that the man Jesus Christ and the divine Logos, dwelling in the man, are two persons.

I’m not sure anything you and I have said are contradictory? Or are you just confirming that point?

 

[rajiv]

I think it’s reasonable to hope that the Eastern Orthodox will eventually be in full communion with Rome. I would say the Oriental Orthodox are likely to enter full communion before the Eastern Orthodox though

I think it’s reasonable to hope that the Eastern Orthodox will eventually be in full communion with Rome. I would say the Oriental Orthodox are likely to enter full communion before the Eastern Orthodox though…
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