Is there a real chance of communion between the Catholic Church and the orthodox?

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Isaac14 said:
If Christ took on the fullness of our humanity, then yes, He took on our propensity to sin, and really everything that came about as a consequence of the fall (esp. death). Yet, being God, He took all these things on without sin, and destroyed them through His death and resurrection.
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You wrote: “If Christ took on the fullness of our humanity, then yes, He took on our propensity to sin …” and “Yet, being God, He took all these things on without sin”.

So I agree that Christ had the temptation to sin (concupiscence) which is not sin itself but a result from the loss of a preternatural (not supernatural) gift of God of freedom from concupiscence, given to our first parents, and that that due to supernatural sanctifying grace, could resist it absolutely and did so unlike Adam. But also, Christ had all the virtues most perfectly which includes temperance which controls the concupiscible appetite. Therefore it is said that Christ endured temptation only from without.
 
Margaret_Ann said:
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babochka:
My first grade teacher about had a heart attack when I tried to receive Communion at a school Mass.
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Why was your teacher shocked?
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Because First Communion was done in second grade.
 
I agree with what you’re saying. I suspect I was either not being precise in what I said (I’m far from a theologian) or I was trying to make a narrower point.
 
Not so. Adam did not have concupiscence until he sinned. Our Lord Jesus Christ cannot have concupiscence because He has a perfect human nature hypostatically united to His Divinity in the unity of His Divine Person. He was tempted from without not from within.
 
Margaret_Ann said:
Not so. Adam did not have concupiscence until he sinned. Our Lord Jesus Christ cannot have concupiscence because He has a perfect human nature hypostatically united to His Divinity in the unity of His Divine Person. He was tempted from without not from within.
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Adam had supernatural grace, and so he could remain free from mortal sin, I did not say he had concupiscence.

That is exactly what I posted about Jesus Christ: “tempted from without”.

Note that there is a distinction of concupiscence in the moral sense (concupiscentia prava) and in the dogmatic sense (appetite whose motion anticipates the judgment of reason and perdures against the command of the will).
 
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Margaret_Ann said:
Did your pastor and parents talk to the teacher?
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Yes, and I was allowed to receive Communion, but I can remember my teacher quizzing me in order to assess my understanding of the Eucharist. There was still a fairly high level of misunderstanding and basic mistrust. Over our years there, it did get better. I remember one time one of the sisters came to our house for the Theophany house blessing. She was more open-minded then most of the sisters and eager to check it out.

On the plus side, I became quite adept at making the sign of the cross in both directions. 😁

These days, it is completely different. My own young children have received Holy Communion at Latin parishes frequently and I have never encountered a priest who was not comfortable giving it to them. Of course, I always approach the priest ahead of time and explain the situation. I find that they are excited to have the opportunity to embrace Eastern Catholics and minister to us appropriately.
 
That’s awesome, @babochka!

I remember what you said about one of the sisters at Confirmation and I would’ve been mortified with her.

I’m glad things are a lot better for ECs.

When I was in RCIA in 2015, one of the Deacons ( In training for his Ordination ) was originally Byzantine Catholic and made the jump into the Latin Rite. Now, he serves at a Latin parish and an Ukrainian Greek parish as a one of two biritual Deacons I know. Plus, he’s a police chaplain. Lovely man, by the way.

In learning the Faith under him, I learned that it’s okay to say the Jesus Prayer as a Latin Rite Catholic.
 
@Margaret_Ann and @George720,

I agree with Margaret Ann’s quotation of Bp Raya.

Prayer is communion with God. An encounter with Him. We derive our understanding of God from our encounters with Him. The use of reason and logic helps one articulate to others each individual’s encounter with God.

Encounter and reason interactively builds up a personal theology.

I’ll go a step farther and say this:

Systematic theology establishes a basis of understanding for the Church as a whole; an underpinning, if you will. This common basis makes it easier for members of the Body to articulate and share experiences and ensure orthodoxy with a commonly agreed upon system of doctrine.

It’s like with the natural sciences.

The natural sciences had to establish a common corpus of understanding and terminology to ensure that any one scientist in any given field can readily understand each other and a body of facts that provides a common reference.

Remember: Theology is the Sacred Science as defined by Saint Thomas Aquinas.
 
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About 20 years ago I attended a SSPX chapel. After Mass there was a social. I told him that I was Ukrainian Greek Catholic. He asked me about the UGCC and we had a good talk for about an hour on Byzantine vs Latin practices e.g. Liturgy vs Mass etc. They also had an icon of Our Mother of Perpetual Help in church.

He was transferred a long time ago but the last I heard is that he now leads pilgrimages in honor of Our Mother of Perpetual Help.
 
Vico said:
Note that there is a distinction of concupiscence in the moral sense ( concupiscentia prava ) and in the dogmatic sense (appetite whose motion anticipates the judgment of reason and perdures against the command of the will).
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I’ve never heard of this distinction. I can’t see Our Lord having concupiscence period because He has a perfect human nature and He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. He IS perfect in both natures because He is the Son of God.

Do you have a solid Catholic source or sources for this because my poor brain can’t comprehend it.
 
I’ll admit that I’ve never heard of this distinction either.

There’s two ways I can see how this question may be resolved.

1: Jesus never had concupiscence but still was possible to be tempted; like how He was tempted by the devil in the desert and how Adam and Eve were tempted in the Garden. Essentially, His human nature was born Immaculate from His Mother and perfected by His Divinity.

2: His human nature was fallen like ours and was perfected by His divine nature. Human nature redeemed by Christ in the flesh.

Either way, Christ remained sinless and fulfilled the Law perfectly and thus was the perfect Victim to reconcile us to the Father.

For my own money, I’ll go with @Margaret_Ann. Jesus is the Son of God and has two perfect natures: the human and the divine.

Otherwise, it requires Jesus to have two antithetical natures that would war against each other and we have no evidence of such a conflict in Sacred Scripture.
 
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Salibi said:
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dochawk:
Declaring one’s opponent “refuted”
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If it were possible to refute anyone in the Orthodox-Catholic argument, someone would have done it long ago and we’d all have been either Catholic or Orthodox.
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Based on the definition of Refute

The following happens & HAS happened
  • prove that (someone) is wrong. (ergo one is corrected) which happens on these threads
  • deny or contradict (a statement or accusation). that happens also
 
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Of course not, @Isaac14.

Jesus was tempted, He suffered and He died.
All in real, living human flesh.

No question.
 
Great.

Where I have a bit of trouble, and this may be my own lack theological knowledge, is that if, in accordance with Hebrews 2, He was made like us in every respect, how would Him being like us be possible if His human nature were perfect?
 
Thank you for your contribution.

I trust that you’ve understood the idea I was attempting to communicate in my post (sloppily, maybe, but English is not my native tongue).
 
That’s a good question, @Isaac14.

My solution is that Jesus was like us in every way but sin. Remember: Adam and Eve were created Immaculate and yet were still tempted and fell. Perfection doesn’t preclude the possibility of sinning anyway. It just means that He didn’t have concupiscence, the wound inflicted by Original Sin; that clouds our nous and inclines us to sin.

That means He was subject to temptation like we are but He overcame temptation with His Divinity and the help of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, showing us the way to do it: The indwelling of the Word in our hearts with the help of the Holy Spirit.

In addition, I’ve thought about it for a long time like this: Jesus took on human nature so He can know what it’s like to be us and show us how to be holy, obedient and pleasing children of God with the help of the Holy Spirit.
 
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