Is there a Violence in the Bible

[Eireann]

gurrato alaien:

Is there Violence in the Bible

Yes ! since the time of Adam & Eve and opposition to the will of God through disobedience and the introduction of sin, one form it took was the first murder, Cain & Abel.

Then we have the ultimate violent death of Jesus the Son of God, the Great Emmanuel who died for greatful as well as ungreatful sinners like you and me.

Don’t attribute sin to God, put it firmlly with it’s originators, Adam and Eve and us who have unfortunately inherited their sinful nature.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Eden:

The Bible is “corrupted”, remember? You can’t have it both ways.

This has been repeatedly pointed out to Muslims, and repeatedly they answer it with deafening silence. Christians have no problem with an “uncorrupted” Koran because we believe Mohammed’s ravings are all wet to begin with. 200 years from now we may reasonably assume that Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code will be an uncorrupted text. That still does not change the fact that it is complete bunk.

So Muslims have a choice.

A. The Bible is not corrupt but wrong–a good choice because it leaves them free to critique the actual content.

OR

B. The Bible is corrupt–if so, Muslims have to give up trying to pull verses out of them to use against Christian because every part of it is dubious.

My guess is most opt for the implausible option C which is that the Bible is both corrupt and wrong. In other words, they claim authority over which passages are corrupt and which are not. And this is why (among other things) my conversion to Islam is not forthcoming. Muslim apologetics is one giant excercise in strawman argumentation and triumphalism.

 

[udral]

Scott Waddell:

This has been repeatedly pointed out to Muslims, and repeatedly they answer it with deafening silence.

The irony of this is that deafening silence is what I see from Christians on the matter of violent OT quotes, which is what this thread is actually about!

 

[Scott_Waddell]

udral:

The irony of this is that deafening silence is what I see from Christians on the matter of violent OT quotes, which is what this thread is actually about!

There have been several posts from Christians answering this subject. And it misses my point. Violent OT quotes are meaningless if one believes the Bible is corrupt. We have to settle the reliablity of Scripture before the discussion moves on.

 

[StMarkEofE]

gurrato alaien:

Is there Violence in the Bible

I’ve often seen Christians, Jews, as well as other non-Muslims making statements about there being violence in the Quran but they tend to overlook the violence in the Bible. The prophet Muhammad did fight in wars as well as command his followers to fight, but so did many of the OT prophets like Joshua, Moses, and Samuel, who was considered the greatest Israelite prophet. There are also numerous examples in the Bible of grotesque and unwarranted violence against innocent people committed by the Israelites and their God.

Killing of Innocent Children Condoned in the Bible:

2 Kings 223
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Important Note: When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him travelled from Mecca to the city of Al-Ta’if to preach Islam, the pagans there had their own children throw rocks on the Prophet until his face and body were swollen and bleeding. The Prophet peace be upon him prayed for the people of Al-Ta’if to be Guided to Islam. And ultimately they were Guided and they embraced Islam. While Prophet Muhammad loved and forgave children for throwing stones at him, the Bible shows ZERO tolerance to even innocent name-calling from children; let alone having them throwing stones!!

Numbers 31:17-18
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Exodus 1314 “In days to come, when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ say to him, ‘With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’ 16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand.”

By the way, NOT A SINGLE NOBLE VERSE in the Noble Quran does it Command for Muslims to kill innocent children!

Murders by Prophets in the Bible:
Exodus 213
The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?” 14 The man said, “Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid and thought, “What I did must have become known.”
15 When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well.

Numbers 2517
“Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor.”

1 Kings 21
20 Ahab said to Elijah, “So you have found me, my enemy!” “I have found you,” he answered, "because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD. 21 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.

22 I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to sin.’

2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD’s servants shed by Jezebel. 8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.

This is only a small portion of the violence found within the Bible. Yet Christians and Jews alike accuse the Quran of promoting violence, when in fact the Qurans concept of war is far more humane and just than the Bibles.

Peace.

Qur’an 48:29
“Muhammed is Allah’s Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

Allah assigns for a person who participates in holy battles in Allah’s cause and nothing causes him to do so except belief in Allah and His Messengers, that he will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty if he survives or will be admitted to Paradise if he is killed in the battle as a martyr.

 

[udral]

Scott Waddell:

There have been several posts from Christians answering this subject. And it misses my point. Violent OT quotes are meaningless if one believes the Bible is corrupt. We have to settle the reliablity of Scripture before the discussion moves on.

But you guys don’t believe it is corrupt. I’ve read in this thread, and answers like “Jesus did away with those unjust rules” don’t really work because Jesus also affirmed the law and even referenced the curse your parents and die rule specifically.

I think the point is that if you’re going to criticize Islam on the basis of violence in the Quran, you first have to acknowledge and resolve the violence in the Bible, which is extremely similar to what’s in the Quran (not surprising given that Quran was based on the Jewish scriptures).

Answer this one:

Leviticus 25

38 **
I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God. ** 39
"When, then, your countryman becomes so impoverished beside you that he sells you his services, do not make him work as a slave.
40
Rather, let him be like a hired servant or like your tenant, working with you until the jubilee year,
41
when he, together with his children, shall be released from your service and return to his kindred and to the property of his ancestors.
42 **
Since those whom I brought out of the land of Egypt are servants of mine, they shall not be sold as slaves to any man.
43 ** Do not lord it over them harshly, but stand in fear of your God. **
44
"**Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations. ** 45
You may also buy them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. **Such slaves you may own as chattels, ** 46
and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen. **

God is directly telling Jews that they can enslave non-Jews, pass them down as property, own them as chattels.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

udral:

But you guys don’t believe it is corrupt.

Doesn’t matter. A discussion can’t take place if there is no common ground–it becomes grandstanding instead. And when an opponent has an incoherent position–that the Bible is corrupt except when they think it makes its adherents look bad, we have a problem.

I’ve read in this thread, and answers like “Jesus did away with those unjust rules” don’t really work because Jesus also affirmed the law and even referenced the curse your parents and die rule specifically.

But you just said Christians practiced deafening silence on this subject. That’s not true. They may have given a bad answer, but it is still an answer.

I think the point is that if you’re going to criticize Islam on the basis of violence in the Quran, you first have to acknowledge and resolve the violence in the Bible, which is extremely similar to what’s in the Quran (not surprising given that Quran was based on the Jewish scriptures).

Not if there is an even more basic disagreement over the reliability Scripture itself.

Scott

 

[George_Waters]

Yes there is violence in the Bible, but a true Christian knows that God is the arbiter of justice not man in his own arrogance. If you use the Bible to justify a crime that is all you are doing, justifying a crime. The violence in the Bible can not be used to justify the murder of adherents of other faiths, except by those who are not following the teachings of Christianity. Can the same be said of the Quran?

 

[manx]

I will not blame Christianity if some Christians will commit violence based on the Bible. I will always find an excuse that their acts are products of misinterpretation. I can say the same thing with the Muslims who are extreme.

 

[Eden]

Can someone please show me where in the Quran it says the Bible is corrupt? My contention is that there is nowhere in Quran that says this. I’ve asked this several times and get no response. If we all can come to an agreement, Muslim and Christian, that the Quran does not state that the Bible is corrupt, then we can move on to whether or not the uncorrupt Bible has violence in it.

 

[inJESUS]

The Bible the only Holy Book in the world that orders the killing the children!!

JOSH 6:21 And killed all that were in it, man and woman, young and old. The oxen also and the sheep, and the asses, they slew with the edge of the sword…
This is the true terrorism

as i told you already, these have to do with God’s punishment, not an eternal law like quran…you can quote as many as you want, Jesus taught differently…yes the Bible is the word of God, but not like the quran for you…it is a historical book where you find all kinds of sins…now you tell me : when people died during Noah’s flood, were there children as well? yes…so why did your allah permit it when there was children as well? see? this has to do with God’s punishments, whether children or not, it is up to His wisdom…what did children die in Tsunami? is allah terrorist? your answers do not make sense.

---

Allah Almighty Said regarding innocent souls in the Noble Quran:

yes and he said other stuff aswell…and mohammads life proves how “merciful” he was to those who “mocked” him…

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person

• unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. plagiarism from Talmud. Are muslims the Children of Israel as well?

"And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God

; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. (The Noble Quran, 2:193)" what about fight those who do not believe in allah or the last day …?

"But if at the time of division other relatives, or orphans or poor, are present, feed them out of the (property), and speak to them words of kindness and justice.

(The Noble Quran, 4:8)"applies to muslims.

So what are you saying? that God is terrorist cuz He punished evil and allah is good cuz he askes you to kill in His name?

 

[inJESUS]

when you see the truth you try to find justifications, aren’t you beleive in tha bible OT and NT,

yes but we understand the OT thru Jesus. The OT paved the way to Jesus, and told the history of people 3000 years ago and their relationship/understanding of God. Who God is really and what are His true teachings are fulfilled with Jesus…not everything done by prophets was what God really wanted and Jesus showed this…so these violent passages in the OT are NOT the law Jesus fulfilled…these were history of people and how they understood God. These are NOT to be done but a lesson to us that God is merciful but is Just as well…that is, the OT teaches us lessons…what Jesus fulfilled is the moral law, not wars.

 

[inJESUS]

Those are “commandments” in the alleged word of God telling people how to live and what to do, not just a recording of history.

so why didn’t Jesus teach the same thing?

If anything, this should encourage Christians to be more tolerant toward what’s in the Quran, because many of the same things are in their own Bible.

first off, if the Bible has violent passages, does it mean the quran must be violent as well? what about NT? we follow the NT…what the OT to us is the pavement for Jesus, the eternal law…we look for its moral law and prophecies about Jesus…to fully understand who Jesus is, we must read the OT…that is, the OT to us is the introduction to Jesus and we follow Jesus’ eternal law…you must try to understand what is the OT exactly.

The difference is that Christians no longer take them seriously, while many Muslims still do.

it is not that we don’t take them seriously, it is that we follow Jesus, God incarnate who gave true, eternal law, not the temporal law of the OT which was temporal, to certain people and which Jesus fulfilled.

 

[inJESUS]

gurrato alaien:

Its rather in order to get the eternal life and salvation and avoid hell fire, you have to convert to Islam.

and if you convert to Christianity allah says you must be killed…no compulsion in religion ?

 

[inJESUS]

gurrato alaien:

No according to quran there is no compulsion in religion, that is your choice nobody force you.

a meccan verse when mohammad needed non-muslims…but when he got power :

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.

'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, 'and whoever said, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah

 

[inJESUS]

udral:

It’s not as simple as that, Jesus does prevent the mob from stoning the woman, but he also says this:

Mark 7: 7 In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’ 8 You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition."
9 He went on to say, "How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.

’ 11 Yet you say, ‘If a person says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is qorban”’ 4 (meaning, dedicated to God), 12 you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother.

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) what are you saying? that Jesus taught to kill those who curse their parents? you must be kidding…Jesus was pointing to the pharisee’s hypocrisy of following things and neglecting, not condoning killing!

Matthew 5 17 "**Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. **

18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, do you know the difference between fulfill and condone?

In my opinion there are apparently contradictory views in the Bible becuase it was written by different authors with different opinions/beliefs.

muslim mindset…it is the contrary…if it were written by one person, we should doubt it…if the authors wrote exactly the same thing, we should doubbt them…yet all gave the SAME message…God never revealed His Word to one person with no witnesses like mohammad.

Do you really think those young men would have been burning embassies and killing people over cartoons if they had interesting jobs, prosperity etc. to look forward to and if they had not been indoctrinated into violence?

they were indoctrinated by following quran/mohammad…truth is notequivocal…mohammad had 23 years of “revelations” to prove peace but he did not…you must dig the quran to get something nice…and this is allegedly written “eternally” on a tablet in “heaven”…this idea is foreign to Judaism and Christianity…if jews do not follow these “wars” , it is cuz they know how to interpret the OT’s history.

There are good Muslims who read the Quran the way you and the Jews read the Old Testament: they focus on the positive parts and ignore the violent parts

Jews do not ignore…they understand what these passages are about…the jews have : thou shall not kill…what about the muslims? is killing forbidden as well?
and muslims cannot “ignore” any word that comes from the mouth of allah…

Maybe if our social situation was what it is in many Muslim nations now, we would have preachers with an agenda focusing on those quotes I posted above and justifying all sorts of evil and violence. You get a little bit of that with people like Pat Robertson, and who knows what goes on in little cults

yes if yu were a jew, not Christian…stoning is forbidden by Jesus, just as killing…

In the end good old human compassion beats any injustice in a religious text and leads to it either being ignored or interpreted away. I think if we help Muslims get rid of their despotic authorities, fix the economic situation in those countries, and give everyone there access to education you’ll find that those people will ignore the violence in the Quran, focus on the good parts, and in general be no different from Jews or Christians or other folk

impossible, muslims cannot ignore the violent parts in quran…and you cannot compare them to Christians cuz the OT violence has nothing to do with what Jesus taught…we follow God Himself who taught His Word on earth and we follow what He taught

 

[inJESUS]

udral:

The irony of this is that deafening silence is what I see from Christians on the matter of violent OT quotes, which is what this thread is actually about!

and why should the Old covenant trouble us when we follow the New? the OT is understood thru the NT …Jesus said what God’s eternal wish/law is, we follow that regardless of what you think the OT is about…it is as if the OT is nothing but wars…these wars have to do with God’s punishment…whether you like it or not, God does punish.

 

[inJESUS]

But you guys don’t believe it is corrupt. I’ve read in this thread, and answers like “Jesus did away with those unjust rules” don’t really work because Jesus also affirmed the law and even referenced the curse your parents and die rule specifically.

if you knew Jesus a little bit, you wouldnt have written these meaningless lines…Jesus did NOT condone killing for any reason! Jesus FULFILLED the law, NOT AFFIRMED…you were told BUT I TELL YOU…is this “affirmed”? thru His death, Jesus freed us from the law and we live under God’s grace of salvation…it doesnt mean we shouldnt follow the moral law, but it means the law will not save you from hell but only Jesus will…thats why he said he did not abolish the law but fulfilled it…so to be saved, we accept Jesus’ salvation and apply HIS teachings : love God and love your neighbor, these SUM UP THE LAW…if only you understand what Jesus was saying…

I think the point is that if you’re going to criticize Islam on the basis of violence in the Quran, you first have to acknowledge and resolve the violence in the Bible, which is extremely similar to what’s in the Quran (not surprising given that Quran was based on the Jewish scriptures).

unfortunately, mohammad had nothing to do with Jesus…that’s why his message is Jesus’ opposite…if you want to say that islam is as violent as the Old law then go ahead…we follow the NEW law. We follow God himself who interpreted His law and we follow Jesus who said : i am the Lord of the sabbath…which means, i am the Lord of the Law, and ONLY JESUS gave the true interpretation of the law…not Moses who allowed divorce for example but Jesus said : it was NOT INITIALLY THIS…no body of the prophets is sinless…we follow Jesus, God incarnate who taught WHAT WAS INITIALLY.

God is directly telling Jews that they can enslave non-Jews, pass them down as property, own them as chattels.

and did God tell Moses to allow divorce or was it Moses HIMSELF who allowed it “because of the harshness of your heart”? what God truly wants is what JESUS taught.

 

[inJESUS]

to all here, sometimes it is hard for me to say what i think in english, thats why i might not give credit to what am saying or i might say it in a wrong way…if i write something vague or not understood, please point it out…thx.

 

[udral]

George Waters:

Yes there is violence in the Bible, but a true Christian knows that God is the arbiter of justice not man in his own arrogance. If you use the Bible to justify a crime that is all you are doing, justifying a crime. The violence in the Bible can not be used to justify the murder of adherents of other faiths, except by those who are not following the teachings of Christianity. Can the same be said of the Quran?

Notice how you said nothing about the slavery passage I posted. Imagine that was read at mass!

I think whether violence can be attributed to Christianity depends on how fundamentalist the denomination is. If they read the Bible as the literal word of God, Old Testament and everything, then sure, they could very well obey God’s commands found in the Old Testament. And that would include a great deal of stoning.

They can choose to focus on how Jesus said that the Law has not been undone, and his comment on the “curse your parents and die” rule to justify that Jesus would approve of it.

Christians used to burn heretics at the stake you know. Jews used to live in ghettos in Catholic countries wth yellow caps on their heads.

The fact that Christians don’t do that anymore in my opinion is a function of cultural development rather than religious development. The culture changed, it became more tolerant, more compassionate, more focused on the well being of individuals and their rights.