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LilyM
Guest
your English is just fine - as good as any native English speaker (not that that’s saying much - most native English speakers are appallingly bad, myself excepted of course
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inJESUS
Guest
kidding right?
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Eden
Guest
Anyone?
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udral
Guest
Christians did burn heretics at the stake. The Spanish Inquisition expelled Jews and Muslims from Spain, Protestants and Catholics went after each other rather ruthlessly and violently. There were mass persecutions and murder of women alleged to be “witches.” (What does it say in the OT, “though shalt not suffer a witch to live” or something along those lines) What about the Inquisition, I remember the account of a man who was boiled alive in oil for being a Lutheran. A pope condemned the idea that it is not the will of the Holy Spirit to burn heretics ( papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm check out # 33 of the condemned ideas).
Christianity itself has not changed since those times, but overall morality has become about human rights, about tolerance etc. The whole principle of humanist morality is the well being of people, regardless of what creed they subscribe to. And Christians raised in this new society don’t behave the way they used to in the past. If a pope now said that the idea that God does not want heretics to be burned ought to be condemned, no one would take him seriously (thankfully).
I think that if Muslims have an “Enlightenment” the way the Western world had, they will change the way Christians have changed. In my opinion what Muslims do now with respect to “infidels” is not that much different from what the Inquistion did, or what Protestants did when the burned heretics at the stake etc.
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gurrato_alaien
Guest
So why you blame islam according to some very minority of muslims acts.!!???
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gurrato_alaien
Guest
George Waters:
Peace.
So you have admitted, good, now know that what in the quran only for self-defence not like the bible for aggressions .
Peace.
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gurrato_alaien
Guest
Here some verses:
002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
PICKTHAL: Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
SHAKIR: Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
005.015
YUSUFALI: O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture,
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;
003.071
YUSUFALI: Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Why confound ye truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with the falsehood and hide the truth while you know?
004.046
YUSUFALI: Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: “We hear and we disobey”; and “Hear what is not Heard”; and “Ra’ina”; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: “What hear and we obey”; and “Do hear”; and “Do look at us”; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
PICKTHAL: Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: “We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not” and “Listen to us!” distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: “We hear and we obey: hear thou, and look at us” it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.
SHAKIR: Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
002.075
YUSUFALI: Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.
PICKTHAL: Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?
SHAKIR: Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).
Peace
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George_Waters
Guest
gurrato alaien:
Frankly I could care less what is in the Quran. The actions of Muslims for 1600 years have demonstrated that they could care less what it says unless it suits their purpose. The Arab conquest proved that self-defence is not a tenant adheared to. I guess Mohemmad had two tribes of Arab Jews, men, women and children slaughtered for “self-defence”?
You can repeat over and over that Islam is peaceful, but until that is demonstrated the only person you are going to convice is yourself.
Yes, gurrato alaien, I have the courage to acknowledge facts. The Bible records history at it’s best and it’s worst. Why can’t you accept that fact?
Frankly I could care less what is in the Quran. The actions of Muslims for 1600 years have demonstrated that they could care less what it says unless it suits their purpose. The Arab conquest proved that self-defence is not a tenant adheared to. I guess Mohemmad had two tribes of Arab Jews, men, women and children slaughtered for “self-defence”?
You can repeat over and over that Islam is peaceful, but until that is demonstrated the only person you are going to convice is yourself.
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George_Waters
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udral said:
Want to talk about what Muslims do to heretics and Jews now? Not used to mind you, currently?
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jcaz
Guest
In the future, when I do have more time, i still do intend to make a thread on the violence in the Quraan verses that of the Bible.
But for now, the Bottom Line is that the Bible is **SIGNIFICANTLY ** more violent than the Quraan.
The “God of the Bible” is SIGNIFICANTLY more violent and angry than the God of the Quraan.
You Christians can quote all day long saying, “but look at your Quraan how it says to force out the infidels” and how it says “kill them whereever you find them” and where it says this and that and this and that.
And you can try to make the pathetic argument that these verses are for all time, and then you argue that the violent verses in the Bible are not for all time, but were only for a specific time and place.
And you can also try to make the pathetic argument that you follow the NT and not the OT, and that there is not violence in the OT. But the FACT REMAINS, that the you do believe that your God did indeed commit and order for those specific acts of violence. I’m glad that you try to free yourselves from this and glad that you say you folllow the NT message as opposed to the OT message. But the FACT REMAINS that God is not schizophrenic; he is the same God and you believe that the God of the OT did indeed commit those AMAZING ACTS OF BRUTAL VIOLENCE.
Here’s just one example verse:
INFANTS! BABIES! Kill them all? Do not spare their precious 7 pound lives? SLAUGHTER ALL BABIES?
Are you kidding me? Have you people not even read your own Bibles. Yet you have the audacity to come here and suggest that the Quraan is violent?
I have a sixteen month old baby son. And for those of you that have children, I know that you agree that your children are innocent and have not done wrong. YET YOUR GOD COMMANDED the SLAUGHTERING of INNOCENT BABIES!
So I challenge any one of you people who claim the Quraan is “so violent”. Produce a single verse from the Quraan that is as directly violent as this verse in your Bible.
And by God, you will NEVER be able to do this. NEVER EVER EVER.
But for now, the Bottom Line is that the Bible is **SIGNIFICANTLY ** more violent than the Quraan.
The “God of the Bible” is SIGNIFICANTLY more violent and angry than the God of the Quraan.
You Christians can quote all day long saying, “but look at your Quraan how it says to force out the infidels” and how it says “kill them whereever you find them” and where it says this and that and this and that.
And you can try to make the pathetic argument that these verses are for all time, and then you argue that the violent verses in the Bible are not for all time, but were only for a specific time and place.
And you can also try to make the pathetic argument that you follow the NT and not the OT, and that there is not violence in the OT. But the FACT REMAINS, that the you do believe that your God did indeed commit and order for those specific acts of violence. I’m glad that you try to free yourselves from this and glad that you say you folllow the NT message as opposed to the OT message. But the FACT REMAINS that God is not schizophrenic; he is the same God and you believe that the God of the OT did indeed commit those AMAZING ACTS OF BRUTAL VIOLENCE.
Here’s just one example verse:
THE BOTTOM LINE, is that you will NEVER EVER EVER find ANY verses in the Quraan that even remotely come close to the violence that your God shows in the OT of the Bible here in the aforementioned verse. NEVER EVER EVER! GOD KILLING INNOCENT BABIES?
INFANTS! BABIES! Kill them all? Do not spare their precious 7 pound lives? SLAUGHTER ALL BABIES?
Are you kidding me? Have you people not even read your own Bibles. Yet you have the audacity to come here and suggest that the Quraan is violent?
I have a sixteen month old baby son. And for those of you that have children, I know that you agree that your children are innocent and have not done wrong. YET YOUR GOD COMMANDED the SLAUGHTERING of INNOCENT BABIES!
So I challenge any one of you people who claim the Quraan is “so violent”. Produce a single verse from the Quraan that is as directly violent as this verse in your Bible.
And by God, you will NEVER be able to do this. NEVER EVER EVER.
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Eden
Guest
No. No one. Not one person can show me where in the Quran it says the Bible is corrupted. I expect to never see the argument that the Bible is corrupted by the Muslim posters here ever again. The Quran does not teach it.
Now, a question for the topic of the thread. How is illustrating that the UNCORRUPTED Bible has violence in the New Testament supposed to show that Islam is the True religion again? It seems you are saying, “See, your faith is just as bad.”
How is that a good argument for you faith? How would that prove that Islam is the truth; this argument that Christianity is “just as bad”? Not only that, but Christ is certainly the antithesis of violence. He is the Prince of Peace.
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inJESUS
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gurrato alaien:
Now, as we always repeat, we follow the NT…why don’t you compare THAT to quran? it would be very interesting wouldn’t it?
gurrato, why do you repeat the same verses you used on the corruption thread and which did NOT prove corruption? am starting to be convinced that talking to muslims is useless.
Now, as we always repeat, we follow the NT…why don’t you compare THAT to quran? it would be very interesting wouldn’t it?
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inJESUS
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Booklover
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You’ve done it again, InJesus! Another great answer!
Vickie
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jimmy
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gurrato alaien:
How did I try to justify anything? I simply explained that the bible shows violence in specific instances, it does not say kill all infidels if the will not be submissive to Christianity. The koran does say kill all infidels if they are not submissive to islam.
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jimmy
Guest
The first one says exactly what I said, the second quote refers to if the person is trying to lead you into adultery, the third is in reference to those who are apostasize from Judaism and serve man made gods.
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jcaz
Guest
inJESUS:
Hah!
Done what?
All he did is completely sidestep answering my post and the challenge.
I DO NOT CARE if you want to argue that certain Islamic verses are “eternal” and that certain Christian verses are “merely commands” to a certain people and a certain place.
THE BOTTOM LINE, is that your God, the Christian God, ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOK, COMMANDED the SLAUGHTERING of INNOCENT BABIES!
Babies! Infants! Your God commanded the SLAUGHTER of INFANTS!
And you will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER find a verse in the Quraan that even comes remotely close to comparing to this level of utter violence.
And NO, this is NOT irrelavent. How can any sane person consider the SLAUGHTER of INNOCENT BABIES as irrelevant?
When one innocent child is murdered, that story is plastered, for good reason, all of news channels across America. This is FAR FROM IRREVELANT.
Your God COMMANDED the SLAUGHTERING of INNOCENT BABIES!
You will try to sidestep this over and over and over.
Because the reality is, you cannot accept and deal with this.
Rather, you will point back to the Quraan and try to redirect the attention.
Good move! Understandably, the best you can do. But verily, people are not stupid and they can discern truth from falsehood.
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inJESUS
Guest
Booklover:
, is that your God, the Christian God, ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOK, COMMANDED the SLAUGHTERING of INNOCENT BABIES!
Babies! Infants! Your God commanded the SLAUGHTER of INFANTS!
And you will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER find a verse in the Quraan that even comes remotely close to comparing to this level of utter violence.
And NO, this is NOT irrelavent. How can any sane person consider the SLAUGHTER of INNOCENT BABIES as irrelevant?
When one innocent child is murdered, that story is plastered, for good reason, all of news channels across America. This is FAR FROM IRREVELANT.
Your God COMMANDED the SLAUGHTERING of INNOCENT BABIES!
You will try to sidestep this over and over and over.
Because the reality is, you cannot accept and deal with this.
Rather, you will point back to the Quraan and try to redirect the attention.
Good move! Understandably, the best you can do. But verily, people are not stupid and they can discern truth from falsehood.
did you read my post? if yes, you understood nothing…
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udral
Guest
George Waters:
The Western world had the Englightenment, people questioned, people rejected injustices and fought for human rights. Among them were freedom of religion, freedom of expression etc. People started to criticize religious authorities and here we are.
Muslims cannot criticize Islam now, they have not reached that point yet. They can still get killed for criticizing it, but in the past the same happened in Christian countries.
Oh, I am not saying they’re not brutal now. But I think what they do now is not that much different from what Christians did in the past. I think the reason for it is not Islam but the relative lack of development of thought in Muslim countries.
The Western world had the Englightenment, people questioned, people rejected injustices and fought for human rights. Among them were freedom of religion, freedom of expression etc. People started to criticize religious authorities and here we are.
Muslims cannot criticize Islam now, they have not reached that point yet. They can still get killed for criticizing it, but in the past the same happened in Christian countries.
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gurrato_alaien
Guest
George Waters:
Peace.
This is not true prophet Muhammad pbuh used to command his people before going to the battle: " don’t kill children, don’t kill women, don’t kill old men, don’t cut tree or burn trees and don’t destroy houses and don’t attack them at night it will be bad for women and children", and so on, see how he was merciful even in the battle.
Peace.
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