Is there an overemphasis of community in our Worship

[Marsha_Adams]

God is community, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - One God. The Trinity is addressed in the Mass, so all Masses regardless of the size of the congregation is offered in community.

When there were bunches and bunches of priests, each priest was ( and still is) obligated to offer a daily Mass. That says to me that a lot of priests were offering the Mass with no one in the congregation to assist.

 

[benedictgal]

God is community, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - One God. The Trinity is addressed in the Mass, so all Masses regardless of the size of the congregation is offered in community.

When there were bunches and bunches of priests, each priest was ( and still is) obligated to offer a daily Mass. That says to me that a lot of priests were offering the Mass with no one in the congregation to assist.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I agree with you. I think the other poster was indicating that Christ was present in the “community” (bodies in pews) assembled at Mass. But, yes, the Trinity is a community of Three Divine, Distinct Persons who form one God.

 

[THurifer2]

Hello,

This antidote was related to me by a Priest.

Back when, they decided to have a magazine, so they started Life. Nice title, encompasses all of life.

Then, they decided to come out with People. No longer focused on all life but only people.

Then they came out with Us. The magazine all about us. Not those other guys, but just us.

I am waiting to see Me magazine on the newsstand. A magazine all about me, and no one else. 100 pages devoted to me.

But remember those of us who have Multi-personality disorders…oh wait we could have a magazine called Me, Myself and I

 

[grandfather]

Does anyone know exactly when we started celebrating? I think it was right around the time we stopped worshipping. Celebrate, celebrate, dance to the music.

Man is made to worship God. His temptation is to worship himself. Worship becomes anthropocentric (spell?) directed to and all about us the community when it loses its proper direction, God. It should be directed to God and direct us to God.

We used to be parishes before we were communities. The local priest wants to remodel the church and build a “gathering place”. It is where “we come to tell our story”. The sanctuary will be off to the side or back. Tabernacle, what tabernacle? That was hidden long ago, first slid off to the side and now to vanish. It is so medieval. What a curmudgeon I am. Get on with the celebration.

 

[benedictgal]

Does anyone know exactly when we started celebrating? I think it was right around the time we stopped worshipping. Celebrate, celebrate, dance to the music.

Man is made to worship God. His temptation is to worship himself. Worship becomes anthropocentric (spell?) directed to and all about us the community when it loses its proper direction, God. It should be directed to God and direct us to God.

We used to be parishes before we were communities. The local priest wants to remodel the church and build a “gathering place”. It is where “we come to tell our story”. The sanctuary will be off to the side or back. Tabernacle, what tabernacle? That was hidden long ago, first slid off to the side and now to vanish. It is so medieval. What a curmudgeon I am. Get on with the celebration.

That was an excellent post:thumbsup: You eloquently summed up what many of us believe.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jesus said, 'Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst.
Matthew 18:20

Seems pretty clear to me.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

Jesus said, 'Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst.
Matthew 18:20

Seems pretty clear to me.

Jim

Jim, you’re misreading what many of us are trying to say. When we begin to “celebrate” ourselves, when we make the “community” assembled in the pews more important than God, then there are some serious problems.

Yes, when two or three are gathered in my name…" comes directly from Jesus, Himself, we should not take it to mean that this is all about us. All of a sudden, Jesus gets lost in the shuffle because we are emphasizing the “community” in the pews rather than offering God our adoration through the Holy Sacrifice.

Grandfather’s post was very eloquent:thumbsup: He’s got a firm sense of what our problem is. You, on the other hand, seem to like to argue for argument’s sake.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, you’re misreading what many of us are trying to say. When we begin to “celebrate” ourselves, when we make the “community” assembled in the pews more important than God, then there are some serious problems.

Yes, when two or three are gathered in my name…" comes directly from Jesus, Himself, we should not take it to mean that this is all about us. All of a sudden, Jesus gets lost in the shuffle because we are emphasizing the “community” in the pews rather than offering God our adoration through the Holy Sacrifice.

Grandfather’s post was very eloquent:thumbsup: He’s got a firm sense of what our problem is. You, on the other hand, seem to like to argue for argument’s sake.

I’ve never in my life, been to a Mass where we celebrate ourselves.

Also, I wasn’t arguing, I posted the scripture verse which came to mind.

You’re the one who’s arguing over it.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

I’ve never in my life, been to a Mass where we celebrate ourselves.

Also, I wasn’t arguing, I posted the scripture verse which came to mind.

You’re the one who’s arguing over it.

Jim

Then, why did you quote it?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

We had a Tridentine Mass at my parish a week ago. As a 1981 convert, the Latin Mass was not familiar to me. Dutifully I found a missal with a 1959 copyright date and went off to Mass with a strange mix jubilation and foreboding in my heart. The Missal emphasized the importance of properly assisting at the Mass, and it was my firm intention to assist as properly as I could. So as the priest prayed in Latin, I read the English translation just ever so fast as I could. For being a stranger to the Latin Mass, I think I did pretty well, I only got totally lost twice and only briefly.

Now, just so you know, I do not believe that reading the English translation hell bent for election constitutes “properly assisting” at the Mass. I’m still working on that. But what is important here is that as I was reading the English it was impressed upon me the number of times that the Missal referred to sin. Through out the entire liturgy we kept referring back to the issue of sin: Forgiveness of Sin, Liberty from Sin, Triumph Over Sin, Christ’s Saving us from SIn.

Now how can we reflect on these things when we are celebrating community (with a little “c”), when we are focusing on each other? Celebration is important, you can participate in a Mass without celebrating - forgiveness of sin, salvation, Christ’s great gift upon the altar. Community is important - the Community of the Trinity, the Community of the Saints and the Holy Souls in Purgatory.

Focusing on anything else is a waste of important prayer time.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Then, why did you quote it?

Because its what came to mind and I thought I’d share it, being it was relevant to the topic.

I didn’t think it would upset people.

Jim

 

[scylla]

Jesus said, 'Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst.
Matthew 18:20
This should be understood in the context of all of Scripture and as Catholics putting God first. As we are the image of God, the spirit of God animates us and when we are gathered in His name He moves us. Yet our focus should be first on God, not each other as Jesus said…

What is the greatest commandment…
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. "
God then commands us to love each other as ourselves the second greatest commandment.
It is not the other way around.

I hope you meant it that way as it is common for people who dissent to not explain things clearly so people get confused and not adhere to the truth. I think it upset people because of it not having any context of understanding.
Does God come first, and only God should be worshipped first, is all else is secondary? Do you agree with that?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[grandfather]

That was an excellent post:thumbsup: You eloquently summed up what many of us believe.

My problem is that I am sarcastic. I used to think sarcasm was a virtue or gift of the Holy Spirit that I was sure the great apostle Saint Paul forgot to mention when he listed them. I searched and searched, but it is not there. More sarcasm. Sorry.

Here is how worship works. Man worships God. The products of worship are grace, holiness and salvation. We receive those gifts from God. Worship is directed to God and we receive its benefits. It is not directed from me to you and back again, or us to us. Grace is directed to us from God. It comes to us when we worship Him. He gives. We receive. We worship God, because He is worthy of worship. We fall down before Him, because He is glorious. Grace allows us to live as we ought, to be sober, truthful, chaste, etc. If we see a lack of grace in our church and world, meaning people unable to control themsleves, tell the truth, avoid addictions, priests causing scandal, perversion displayed and promoted, a lot of violent senseless crime, it is because we lack grace. Something is wrong with worship. It is not working as it ought. Why?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

My problem is that I am sarcastic. I used to think sarcasm was a virtue or gift of the Holy Spirit that I was sure the great apostle Saint Paul forgot to mention when he listed them. I searched and searched, but it is not there. More sarcasm. Sorry.

Don’t be sorry. Saint Paul may never have listed sarcasm as gift or fruit of the Holy Spirit, but he frequently practiced it. I Corinthians 13, the great “love” chapter was reeking with sarcasm when St. Paul wrote it.

 

[grandfather]

Don’t be sorry. Saint Paul may never have listed sarcasm as gift or fruit of the Holy Spirit, but he frequently practiced it. .

I guess you are right. Maybe we should “cut the whole thing off”. He had a pretty weird sense of humor if you ask me.

 

[Pug]

I’ve never in my life, been to a Mass where we celebrate ourselves.

Neither have I. What specific things make one say that we are celebrating ourselves rather than worshiping or assisting at mass or standing at the foot of the cross on Calvary? I see one in this thread, and that is stupid entrance songs. I agree that we have some unsavory songs. But I never would have said this means the people in the pews are celebrating their own selves (as opposed to having something inflicted upon them). Such a thing never crossed my mind until I started reading posts by traditionalists. What is it that you see? Or, perhaps, what do you mean by celebration of our own selves? Do you mean idolatry or inappropriate thanksgiving or that God is being ignored or …?

 

[benedictgal]

Neither have I. What specific things make one say that we are celebrating ourselves rather than worshiping or assisting at mass or standing at the foot of the cross on Calvary? I see one in this thread, and that is stupid entrance songs. I agree that we have some unsavory songs. But I never would have said this means the people in the pews are celebrating their own selves (as opposed to having something inflicted upon them). Such a thing never crossed my mind until I started reading posts by traditionalists. What is it that you see? Or, perhaps, what do you mean by celebration of our own selves? Do you mean idolatry or inappropriate thanksgiving or that God is being ignored or …?

The one who came up with the notion of “celebrating ourselves”, or at least verbalized it was then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. If you want to call him a “Traditionalist”, then, that’s fine because, I suppose, I stand with him, as well.

You are right about the entrance hymn. A solid entrance hymn can set a really good tone for how the Mass is going to turn. A really bad one that talks about “building the community” will lead it to a train wreck. One such hymn that comes to mind is “O Love of God/O Amor de Dios” which pretty much says that we are here to build up a community. Gee, I though we were here to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Another point that then-Cardinal Ratzinger makes is the fact that the focus is now on the celebrant and/or his personality. Instead of God being front and center, we are treated to the celebrant’s charm, wit and good looks (sorry, had to throw that in, sometimes, it’s true). In my hometown, the lector introduces the Mass (after the obligatory reminder to turn off cellphones) by saying, let us welcome our pastor, Fr. – by singing the opening hymn, found at #—. Sometimes, the priest inserts his own personality in the Mass. 'Good morning, how are you" has replaced “In the Name of the Father…” as the first thing out of a celebrant’s mouth.

Where has the solemnity gone? Have we lost the fact that we are in the presence of the Divine Majesty of God? Do we not realize that the Mass is where heaven and earth are joined together?

 

[Pug]

The one who came up with the notion of “celebrating ourselves”, or at least verbalized it was then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger…

Where has the solemnity gone? Have we lost the fact that we are in the presence of the Divine Majesty of God? Do we not realize that the Mass is where heaven and earth are joined together?

I apologize if the word “traditionalist” is an offensive word. My intent wasn’t to offend. Is there a particular article where Ratzinger discusses this concept of self celebration?

Huh. I’ve never thought twice about the phrase “our celebrant today is Fr. X”. We used to have lots of visiting priests, so it seemed natural. I lump it with how the bulletin prints the mass intentions and celebrant for all the masses for the next week. Is printing the intentions and celebrant new, too?

Were you trying to indicate that informality is part of what is meant by celebrating ourselves, or is that just a general complaint (I agree, it is a decent complaint).

 

[benedictgal]

I apologize if the word “traditionalist” is an offensive word. My intent wasn’t to offend. Is there a particular article where Ratzinger discusses this concept of self celebration?

Huh. I’ve never thought twice about the phrase “our celebrant today is Fr. X”. We used to have lots of visiting priests, so it seemed natural. I lump it with how the bulletin prints the mass intentions and celebrant for all the masses for the next week. Is printing the intentions and celebrant new, too?

Were you trying to indicate that informality is part of what is meant by celebrating ourselves, or is that just a general complaint (I agree, it is a decent complaint).

In his book, Spirit of the Liturgy, Pope Benedict opined against the “good morning” greeting and the rash of informalities that have crept into the Mass. If you notice, he doesn’t engage in that when he celebrates Mass. He will perhaps say something in his homily or in remarks after the Post-Communion prayer, but never at the beginning. There needs to be a formality in our liturgies because we are doing something out of the ordinary. We are in the presence of the Wholly Other, as Benedict likes to say, and as Fr. Hans Urs Von Balthasar (forgive my spelling) would write. We have lost a sense of the sacred, which Benedict, I strongly believe, is trying to capture.

 

[grandfather]

I am a confessed professed tratitionalist. The reason I have to defend tradition is that it is attecked.

As far as how the Mass has gone from being directed to God to directed to us, there are many ways. The music is one and it is not just the entrance hymn. Compare the old hymns to the the new. “We come to tell our story” to “Panis Angelicus”, “Eagles Wings” to “O Sacred Head”. Architecture is another area of comparison. The beauty of an ancient church or cathedral is very different from the flying saucers built today. Google Fatima and look at the new monstrosity just built there. The priest is supposed to be the altar christus, offering sacrifice to God. Now that he faces us he has become a blow dried emcee, a master of ceremony cracking jokes. The church in the round leaves us when we look up facing one another instead of the tabernacle. The tabernacle got shuffled off to a side chapel. The band, I mean choir, is up on stage, I mean altar, instead of in the loft. They have become entertainers. Worship has become entertainment. A one and a two and hit it, kumbaya lord. The rounds of applause for the band and the newly baptized and everything imaginable is us praising us not God. The majesty and awe are gone. It has become banal, desacralized. Go find an old missal and read the ordinary of the old Mass side by side with a novus ordo Missal. Really do it. It will take fifteen minutes.