Is there an overemphasis of community in our Worship

[pnewton]

What is sooo wrong about adhering to Church tradition? .

Nothing at all. I never said there was. More important it is wrong to reject Tradition as it is reflected in our doctrine. But that is not what we are talking about here. Communion has always had an element of community, hence the word. It also has always had a primacy of the presence of the Lord substantial present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. The question is whether there is too great an emphasis on the community aspect that overshadows the reality of the presence of Christ. I still think this must be determined on a parish level. I know that we do not have this problem at my parish. Maybe some do.

What gets tiring is people here that know nothing about each other making assumptions about the worship of another. My parish worship is great, but I would be foolish to assume it is better than anothers, without knowing anything about it.

 

[benedictgal]

Nothing at all. I never said there was. More important it is wrong to reject Tradition as it is reflected in our doctrine. But that is not what we are talking about here. Communion has always had an element of community, hence the word. It also has always had a primacy of the presence of the Lord substantial present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. The question is whether there is too great an emphasis on the community aspect that overshadows the reality of the presence of Christ. I still think this must be determined on a parish level. I know that we do not have this problem at my parish. Maybe some do.

What gets tiring is people here that know nothing about each other making assumptions about the worship of another. My parish worship is great, but I would be foolish to assume it is better than anothers, without knowing anything about it.

Have you ever read any of Pope Benedict’s statements regarding the Mass or his books (either pre or post conclave)? Furthermore, JPII would not have convened the Synod on the Eucharist if he wasn’t already aware of the BIG problems that exist right now. The lineamata (working instrument) that the Synod Fathers used was full of many issues concerning abuse.

You can read the whole thing at:

www.vatican.va

Under the search engine, type in Synod on the Eucharist. I think that even Sacramentum Caritatis may have some links to it. The Lineamata is also posted in www.adoremus.org

 

[Pug]

I totally agree, and it was part of the point I was trying to make.

Peace,

I knew that was part of your point.

Your comment about which types of piety get noticed is interesting. I don’t just mean the vocal ones. Some types of piety are simply more noticeable (at least to me). Like Jewish people and those long locks of hair on the side of their heads. Kids catch that right away.

About the pictures, if I ignore that it is between OF and EF, it reminds me of how much I loved going to Europe, and walking through the church buildings there, with the silent heights above and the heavy flagstones under my feet, and the sides lined with room-sized nooks and religious art. SIGH.

 

[pnewton]

Have you ever read any of Pope Benedict’s statements regarding the Mass or his books (either pre or post conclave)?

I am halfway through* Spirit of the Liturgy*.



I know problems exist in places. But this specific problem does not exist everywhere, maybe not even most places. I know that we do not have an issue.

 

[benedictgal]

I am halfway through* Spirit of the Liturgy*.



I know problems exist in places. But this specific problem does not exist everywhere, maybe not even most places. I know that we do not have an issue.

Perhaps, then, he will enlighten you as to why this issue is very important.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps, then, he will enlighten you as to why this issue is very important.

I understand the importance of the issue. I just question if overemphasis on community is widespread. That is the core question of this topic.

Let me go one step further. Can our communal nature even be over-emphasized? I know that the gut reaction is “YES!!”, but follow me. Is it really the over-emphasis on community that we respond to, or the lack of emphasis on the sacrifice of the Mass. No doubt among some priest who promote a wishy-washy feel good theology, the two always go hand and hand. But there is nothing inherently contradictory in the sacrifice of the Mass and the Church as community at the Mass.

Perhaps there is sometimes a misappropriate application of the Church as the body of Christ during the liturgy of the Eucharist, although it is equally important to understand the realtionship between the two. We become what we eat. I know that I avoid the “we are the body of Christ” music during the Eucharist because I do not want to create confusion, but may use such songs at other junctures.

 

[benedictgal]

I understand the importance of the issue. I just question if overemphasis on community is widespread. That is the core question of this topic.

Then, as you read his book, your question will be answered. I only wish that this book were required reading at seminaries around the world.

 

[anamchara]

What is sooo wrong about adhering to Church tradition? Remember, the two pillars of the Catholic Church are Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Protestants are sola scriptura and reject wholesale the notion of tradition.

No one said anything about Church tradition, just that silly blog with those ridiculous comparisons using pictures. It was insulting in my opinion.

Allow me to be picky for a moment and defend our separated brethren. It’s actually, Sola Gracia, Sola Fide, Sola Sciptura. They feel they do have a very real tradition that dates back 500 + yrs. Please don’t assume I’m supporting them just pointing out where they are coming from. I came from that

Back on topic…
*

 

[latinmasslover]

Mass is not the time to focus on the community. Mass is the time to focus on God, to do Him worship. If people want “community” then something needs to be sponsored after Mass or on another day.

 

[pnewton]

Mass is not the time to focus on the community. Mass is the time to focus on God, to do Him worship. If people want “community” then something needs to be sponsored after Mass or on another day.

So you think there is no community aspect of Mass? Then at least you ought to be happy with all the songs that use singular pronouns instead of the plural.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t think one can discount community entirely and be faithful to both the current catechism and Tradition.

From Justin Martyr:

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . . and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

1 Cor 10:16-17.

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread

St. Augustine exclaims, “O sacrament of devotion! O sign of unity! O bond of charity!” CCC #1398

The Church has never taught the “me and Jesus got our own thing going” type of religion. One can seek a solitary relationship with Jesus in the woods or in a crowd of people at Mass. Both have a common flaw.

 

[THurifer2]

So you think there is no community aspect of Mass? .

Here is my idea of what a community at Mass should be…a group of people in the same room directing their focus towards GOD in unison. TO me anyting else is playing Adam and Eve and trying to be like god ourselves.

 

[grandfather]

No one said anything about Church tradition, just that silly blog with those ridiculous comparisons using pictures. It was insulting in my opinion.

Allow me to be picky for a moment and defend our separated brethren. It’s actually, Sola Gracia, Sola Fide, Sola Sciptura. They feel they do have a very real tradition that dates back 500 + yrs. Please don’t assume I’m supporting them just pointing out where they are coming from. I came from that

Back on topic…
*

Do you not believe that the things of the sort depicted in the photos have happened? Who do the pictures insult? I agree they are insulting. The nitwits that do these things are the insulters. The photos are evidence. They make a mockery of worship. In the local parish they have occassionally have dancers in bizarre costumes. They are ridiculous. It is insulting. It is also prohibited by Rome. Should we smile and make believe they are wonderful. The church design is a monstrosity. The priest who built it was sentenced to 15 years in prison. Another priest there was the founder of a radical gay magazine and identified himself as a homosexual who gave out condoms at church gatherings. Another pastor there was removed from priestly functions while he is investigated. That was almost ten years ago and he is not back. A woman employee of the parish sued the church to be ordained. There have been so many liturgical abuses that it would take pages to recount. The photos are tame.

I do not understand the comment on Protestants and their traditions. Are you trying to say tradition is irrelevant?

 

[benedictgal]

Do you not believe that the things of the sort depicted in the photos have happened? Who do the pictures insult? I agree they are insulting. The nitwits that do these things are the insulters. The photos are evidence. They make a mockery of worship. In the local parish they have occassionally have dancers in bizarre costumes. They are ridiculous. It is insulting. It is also prohibited by Rome. Should we smile and make believe they are wonderful. The church design is a monstrosity. The priest who built it was sentenced to 15 years in prison. Another priest there was the founder of a radical gay magazine and identified himself as a homosexual who gave out condoms at church gatherings. Another pastor there was removed from priestly functions while he is investigated. That was almost ten years ago and he is not back. A woman employee of the parish sued the church to be ordained. There have been so many liturgical abuses that it would take pages to recount. The photos are tame.

I do not understand the comment on Protestants and their traditions. Are you trying to say tradition is irrelevant?

I thought that the Catholic Answers forums were supposed to be about people who are serious about the Church and are well-grouded in their Faith. I thought that this forum would be for people who want to have a serious discussion about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments. I’m afraid that I might be wrong, grandfather. Many of the posters are like the people of Nineveh: “They know not their right hand from their left hand.” Even Jonah couldn’t help them.

I, too, have seen my share of strange things during the Mass. People have just either conditioned themselves to “go with the flow” or they just don’t care anymore.

Protestants broke away from the Church because they refused to adhere to Tradition. Martin Luther was the one who started the whole domino effect by trying to discredit the Traditions of the Church. When we no longer hold on to Tradition, when we do not recogize Peter as Christ’s Vicar on earth and merely treat his statements as simple opinion because “we know better” and when we start relativizing everything, then we have divorced ourselves from Christ and His Church.

 

[grandfather]

I don’t think one can discount community entirely and be faithful to both the current catechism and Tradition.

From Justin Martyr:

1 Cor 10:16-17.

St. Augustine exclaims, “O sacrament of devotion! O sign of unity! O bond of charity!” CCC #1398

The Church has never taught the “me and Jesus got our own thing going” type of religion. One can seek a solitary relationship with Jesus in the woods or in a crowd of people at Mass. Both have a common flaw.

Do you think the hermits and monks, the desert fathers were flawed for seeking solitude? There is no doubt that at Mass the community of believers gathers. What happens there is “we” worship God in sacramental mysteries that are before us on the altar. Our attention beliongs there. If you were on Calvary and Jesus was dying for your sins and He was there before you to behold and worship, would you run through the crowd to shake everyone’s hand? Would you meet and greet the friends from the neighborhood? Would you be looking for Christ in your neighbor? Or, would your attention be riveted on God incarnate, the bread come down from heaven? When you go to Mass you are at Calvary.

 

[ncjohn]

Do you think the hermits and monks, the desert fathers were flawed for seeking solitude? There is no doubt that at Mass the community of believers gathers. What happens there is “we” worship God in sacramental mysteries that are before us on the altar. Our attention beliongs there. If you were on Calvary and Jesus was dying for your sins and He was there before you to behold and worship, would you run through the crowd to shake everyone’s hand? Would you meet and greet the friends from the neighborhood? Would you be looking for Christ in your neighbor? Or, would your attention be riveted on God incarnate, the bread come down from heaven? When you go to Mass you are at Calvary.

You are also at the resurrection. There are many parts of the Mass that one would not be doing at Calvary, but then the Mass is about more than Calvary. It is also about the holy ones collectively praising God, patterned on the Book of Revelation.

 

[grandfather]

You are also at the resurrection. There are many parts of the Mass that one would not be doing at Calvary, but then the Mass is about more than Calvary. It is also about the holy ones collectively praising God, patterned on the Book of Revelation.

What were the saints present at Calvaty doing? Where was their attention focused? Was it on one another or God?

 

[pnewton]

Do you think the hermits and monks, the desert fathers were flawed for seeking solitude?.

Of course there are those called to a life of solitude, but not all. Even most monks live in community. Besides, none of that is relevant to the question

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I thought that the Catholic Answers forums were supposed to be about people who are serious about the Church and are well-grouded in their Faith. I thought that this forum would be for people who want to have a serious discussion about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments.

Actually that is what you have. CA forms show the diversity that is Catholicism today. There are different opinions but while different each poster is serious about their faith. Differences in faith practices is not a bad thing.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually that is what you have. CA forms show the diversity that is Catholicism today. There are different opinions but while different each poster is serious about their faith. Differences in faith practices is not a bad thing.

But when some viewpoints are borderline heretical, then it makes me wonder. The Catholic Church is not a cafeteria. Yes, there is diversity, but not at the expense of the Faith. Your posts have repeatedly made my point.