Is there any hope for Jehovah's Witnesses?

[DelsonJacobs]

What Hope for the Jehovah’s Witnesses Based on Catholic Doctrine:
An Open Letter to Jehovah’s Witnesses from a Roman Catholic

Notwithstanding the official view of Jehovah’s Witnesses that Jehovah God gives humankind lifesaving truth through only one religion, namely their own, Catholics believe that Jehovah does not limit himself when it comes from where life-saving truth can be found.

The Scriptures tell us that the truth about God can be found in his creation:

Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made.—Romans 1:20.

The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the firmament proclaims the work of his hands.—Psalm 19:2.

So great is this witness to the truth about God that Scripture claims that those who choose to ignore what they can learn from nature and choose to ignore God or worship false Gods “have no excuse” if they ignore this source of God’s truth.—Romans 1:20-21.

The Scriptures teach that God has imbued each and every person with the faculty of conscience to such an extent that “the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law.” How is such possible if they don’t worship or know about God? Because when God created each human, he designed all persons so that “the demands of the law are written in their hearts.” (Romans 2:14-15) This explains why people in general seek to do what is good to their neighbor and demand justice, even if they are not religious. Humans can’t escape their very nature, made in God’s image, that in itself testifies to the truth about our Creator. (Genesis 1:26-27) As the *Common English Bible *puts it: “They instinctively do what the Law requires,” and “their consciences affirm it.”—See also Sirach 17:7-15.

Truth In Other Religions

While keeping to our conviction that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ in which all fullness of God’s truth dwells, the Catholic Church also recognizes truth where it appears in other places. This is a notable difference from the religion and beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

In addition to nature and the faculty of conscience, facets of truth are common throughout the realm of religious and non-religious belief, practice, and convictions.

Because human society is a single community with a common origin in our Creator as well as a common destiny in Him, the Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true which can be found among the peoples of the world. While only Jesus Christ is the Way, Truth, and Life (John 14:6), one cannot ignore that God works as he wills, often in ways that go beyond our expectations. The Bible itself is a testimony to the fact that Jehovah God has always surprised humanity, characteristically never saving us in the way we thought he would or according to standards we thought could never be adjusted or moved. As it is written:

You worked awesome deeds we could not hope for,
such as had not been heard of from of old.—Isaiah 64:2-3.

Does that mean there is truth in the religion of the Jehovah’s Witnesses? Yes, it does indeed.

For instance, Jehovah’s Witnesses have a great faith in the Bible. They also strive to live according to its standards in exemplary ways that endeavor to be imitated. They are honest people with a love for Christ, and they truly wish all mankind will take heed of the Gospel’s call to the Kingdom of God.

Not ignoring the significant differences between their religion and ours, Catholics do not view them as enemies of the Church or humanity at large as some have. While it is not possible to accommodate some of their doctrines and the way they are lived out (such actively shunning those who freely leave their ranks or are disfellowshipped), this is due to the Catholic view of human rights, including the dignity that comes with the freedom of conscience in all matters religious. Proper respect for the religious choices of others includes acknowledging them, tolerance, and open communication. If one person expects others to treat them so, they must do the same as they wish to be treated:

Do to others as you would have them do to you.—Luke 6:31.

Where human rights and the safety of others is not threatened, as with anyone else Jehovah’s Witnesses are worthy of being afforded the dignity and respect for their personal religious choices. And Catholics do not take the position of judge when it comes to stating whose worship God accepts or not. As such we view them as fellow children of God, working to spread the message of the Bible and heralding the good news of the Kingdom of God.

(Continued…)

 

[DelsonJacobs]

What Hope for the Jehovah’s Witnesses Based on Catholic Doctrine]—Continued.

To reiterate, this does not mean that Catholics ignore the great differences in doctrine between the two faiths. There is a significant gap between us that requires official and full participation in ecumenical dialogue in order to reduce it.

Also Jehovah’s Witnesses continue to actively publish, through print and word of mouth, a message that claims that Catholics are blinded by the Devil, are thus serving him and not God and thus cannot and should not be considered children of God. When others make similar claims about them, Jehovah’s Witnesses are known for claiming such acts as open hatred towards them and persecution. However they have yet to recognize that doing the same to another, especially on the official doctrinal level regarding Catholics and our Church is equally inexcusable. Officially publishing such a message about the religion of Catholicism is the same as declaring the same about each and every Catholic. It is hateful and hurtful and needs to be addressed by the Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves:

If anyone says, I love God, and hates a brother or sister, he is a liar, because the person who doesn’t love a brother or sister who can be seen can’t love God, who can’t be seen.—1 John 4:20, CEB.
This is no way excuses where Catholics in the past, individually or institutionally may have treated Jehovah’s Witnesses in an equally negative way, failing to show Christian love and tolerance when we should have. However that era and generation is long gone. We no longer believe or participate in such negativity, especially since the publication of Nostra Aetate in 1965. Likewise enough time has passed since the days when Jehovah’s Witnesses carried signs proclaiming: “Religion is a snare and a racket.” For both to make up for their past the two must make their present one of forgiveness to ensure a peaceful future.

Dialogue may be difficult to come by. Currently there are more debates with little listening. But no one gets into a relationship without some give and take, some listening and a real willingness to change. The truths of God never will, of course, but both religions have had to do so over the years, have we not?

There is hope for Jehovah’s Witnesses if there is hope for Catholics. Indeed there is. Does it mean that each side must accept the other’s views and adopt one another’s religion? No, but it definitely entails being willing to honestly search our hearts, root out hatred for one another, and try to work for a better future of understanding.

In our world today religion is often under attack. It makes no sense whatsoever that religious people, regardless of doctrine or creed, should continue divided. In our acceptance of one another’s unique differences we can still stand together in unity. Indeed we must attempt to do so lest we fail at being Christians. It is my hope that each of us can find a way to work together instead of standing apart. It’s been more than 100 years now since the Jehovah’s Witnesses have come on the scene. Isn’t it about time?

 

[MacQ]

I have loved ones who have been Jehovah’s Witnesses for decades, since their early 20s. It just seems hopeless that they will ever return home to the Church, despite the prayers of many family members.

Or does anyone know of any particular saints (besides St. Jude) who would be especially efficacious in bringing Jehovah’s Witnesses to Jesus and His Church?

I am puzzled by your notion of “bringing JW’s to Jesus”.
Do they not claim to be centered in Jesus?

What is it your relatives do or believe that disturbs you to the point of fearing that there is no hope for them?
Are they good people? Do they live like Christians? What do they do that makes you afraid for their souls?
There are many paths to salvation. Some of the most Christian lives I’ve seen are being lived by Mormons. I reckon they will be in heaven way before I am.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

I am puzzled by your notion of “bringing JW’s to Jesus”.
Do they not claim to be centered in Jesus?

What is it your relatives do or believe that disturbs you to the point of fearing that there is no hope for them?
Are they good people? Do they live like Christians? What do they do that makes you afraid for their souls?
There are many paths to salvation. Some of the most Christian lives I’ve seen are being lived by Mormons. I reckon they will be in heaven way before I am.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are somewhat of an enigma. Do they claim belief in Jesus? Yes, but they don’t believe Jesus is God. They believe Jesus is St. Michael the Archangel.

What disturbs most people is that the Witnesses actively and officially preach a message that tells people that salvation is dependent on joining their religion AND that if we stay in our current faith then we are blindly serving the Devil and deserve to be destroyed by God.

But most of them live very exemplary lives. They are courteous, loving, friendly folk.

Yet they practice shunning whereby they tell those who leave their group that they are not worthy of being treated with dignity for making a different religious choice. Parents will cut off children and not speak with them, friends will disown friends, and JWs will treat ex-members as dead, pretending they are not present if they bump into them in public, even excommunicating members who wish to keep communication with ex-members–treating them the same way too.

They love the Bible, read and study it everyday.

But they deny teachings like the Trinity and the destiny of Heaven for all Christians, and they publicly and unapologetically misrepresent our beliefs on hell and the afterlife. They have even set dates for the end of the world, encouraging members to avoid marriage, college, and entering certain professions based on these dates only to change them time and again–leaving their members in poverty and lacking an education that will guarantee them a better financial life.

They are great parents, great children, great neighbors, and at the same time judgmental, misleading, and unconcerned for any but their own. They are under the control of a group of men that forbid freedom of thought, higher education, and freedom of conscience while praying to God that you and I die soon so they can live in a paradise earth over our rotting bodies.

And at the same time they are some of the nicest people you will ever meet.

So it shouldn’t surprise us if some ask from time to time if the JWs can legitimately claim a hope before God. They officially teach we cannot. So they walk a thin line that can’t be defined as more than an enigma.

 

[MacQ]

Jehovah’s Witnesses are somewhat of an enigma. Do they claim belief in Jesus? Yes, but they don’t believe Jesus is God. They believe Jesus is St. Michael the Archangel.

What disturbs most people is that the Witnesses actively and officially preach a message that tells people that salvation is dependent on joining their religion AND that if we stay in our current faith then we are blindly serving the Devil and deserve to be destroyed by God.

But most of them live very exemplary lives. They are courteous, loving, friendly folk.

Yet they practice shunning whereby they tell those who leave their group that they are not worthy of being treated with dignity for making a different religious choice. Parents will cut off children and not speak with them, friends will disown friends, and JWs will treat ex-members as dead, pretending they are not present if they bump into them in public, even excommunicating members who wish to keep communication with ex-members–treating them the same way too.

They love the Bible, read and study it everyday.

But they deny teachings like the Trinity and the destiny of Heaven for all Christians, and they publicly and unapologetically misrepresent our beliefs on hell and the afterlife. They have even set dates for the end of the world, encouraging members to avoid marriage, college, and entering certain professions based on these dates only to change them time and again–leaving their members in poverty and lacking an education that will guarantee them a better financial life.

They are great parents, great children, great neighbors, and at the same time judgmental, misleading, and unconcerned for any but their own. They are under the control of a group of men that forbid freedom of thought, higher education, and freedom of conscience while praying to God that you and I die soon so they can live in a paradise earth over our rotting bodies.

And at the same time they are some of the nicest people you will ever meet.

So it shouldn’t surprise us if some ask from time to time if the JWs can legitimately claim a hope before God. They officially teach we cannot. So they walk a thin line that can’t be defined as more than an enigma.

Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
An enigma indeed.
I am quite loathe to judge others’ religion (I think pretty much everyone is in for a few surprises at judgment), and leave it to God to sort out.

 

[Logically]

… (I think pretty much everyone is in for a few surprises at judgment), and leave it to God to sort out.

Ha. Very well said.

We simply are convinced of what we believe and think others should examine the evidence too. We really want others to check it out and see if it adds up.
We could wait for them to come and ask us, but instead we go to them and try to get them thinking about subjects.
Of course we can’t force anyone to start believing what we believe. We don’t even do that to our own dear children! (Jehovah’s Witnesses do not baptise infants since there is no mention of that in the Bible) We leave it to our young ones to decide when (and if) they want to get baptised into Jehovah’s service. So almost never before they are teenagers. (I hear only about a third do stay JW’s)

But most of those who are in our congregations studied as adults and decided themselves to change their lives. (from all sorts of religions, no-religion or atheist) I have twice done surveys asking if members of my congregation were raised JW’s, and 70% and 90% said “no.”
They examined it as adults and decided to change their beliefs because they became convinced it was true.

And that is why they can go out and do the door-to-door preaching work! They have convinced themselves by the evidence they have examined that it is the truth. Therefore they can explain and prove it to others.

Which I (personally) think intimidates a lot of religious leaders who know their parishioners can not do that. They know three things: 1. The typical JW knows a lot more about the Bible than the typical member of their church, 2. JW’s believe very different things from their church, 3. JW’s are all motivated to visit people and offer free Bible studies! - A very dangerous combination!

Hence we get the countless false accusations trying to discredit us. “They changed the Bible! They threaten dissenters with shunning! They don’t believe in Jesus! They conceal paedophiles…”

We are not wicked people. Many are over-zealous I am sure, but not wicked.

Perhaps you are right. Us JW’s will work out our dellusions at Judgement day!

All the best friend!

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Hence we get the countless false accusations trying to discredit us. “They changed the Bible! They threaten dissenters with shunning! They don’t believe in Jesus! They conceal paedophiles…”

We are not wicked people. Many are over-zealous I am sure, but not wicked.

Perhaps you are right. Us JW’s will work out our dellusions at Judgement day!

All the best friend!

And this is true for the most part. The Witnesses do get a raw deal for many things that aren’t really as out of sync with our beliefs as Catholics.

However, Logically, you know as well as I due that shunning is practiced and demanded for dissenters in the religion. Why would you publicly go on record here and claim that you religion doesn’t do that?

Jehovah’s Witnesses will shun those who choose to leave, even family members will do so, not speaking to those who wish to make a different choice. Notice this quote from a speech given at one of their conventions last year:

When someone is disfellowshipped, one of the reasons they want to come back into Jehovah’s organization is to associate with the brothers and sisters in the congregation and likely to associate with their family. So if we associate with them when they’re disfellowshipped, we could actually be taking away from them a motivating factor for wanting to be reinstated. Just imagine now if we didn’t remain loyal and we talk to them and associate with them…Remember, in all cases, being loyal to Jehovah is the most important thing.–God’s Word Is Truth” District Convention, 2013, “The Truth Brings‘Not Peace, But a Sword’,” by Wallkill Bethel (headquarters) representative Steven Bell.

Notice the statements above:

“One of the reasons [disfellowshipped members] want to come back into Jehovah’s organization is to associate…with their family.”

“If we associate with them when they’re disfellowshipped…”

“Just imagine now if we didn’t remain loyal and we talk to them and associate with them”

So they practice *withholding “association,” *or in other words they practice shunning.

Note again Logically’s words, who is a Jehovah’s Witness:

“We get the [sic] countless *false accusations *trying to discredit us…‘They threaten dissenters with shunning!’”

Now I am sure Logically is a very good person, probably one of the nicest you will meet. But as you can see here (and read in any of their publications) they do threaten dissenters with shunning and excommunicate those who refuse to shun.

The fact the Logically is saying something that *does not match *the honest truth is what makes them an enigma. They do this time and again, and their conscience never appears to bother them when they misrepresent things about themselves.

Am I the only one that finds this contradictory and odd? I know I’m not.

Who wants to be part of a religion that will tell you one thing like Logically does but then do another in official practice? Is there hope for anyone who practices one thing in worship and claims they don’t when asked about it?

 

[PJM]

=Ocean of Mercy;12077828]I have loved ones who have been Jehovah’s Witnesses for decades, since their early 20s. It just seems hopeless that they will ever return home to the Church, despite the prayers of many family members. I am encouraged to see some former JWs on this forum, but it seems like the ones here have done a lot of critical study to come to the point of leaving. Most JWs I am familiar with (including my loved ones) are content to follow whatever the Watchtower Society teaches, even if the teachings at times do a 180. It seems to me that the only hope is a Road to Emmaus type experience or an apparition. Do any former JWs on the forum have any encouragement for me from your personal testimonies? Have you had powerful spiritual conversion experiences that you knew were the work of the Holy Spirit? Or does anyone know of any particular saints (besides St. Jude) who would be especially efficacious in bringing Jehovah’s Witnesses to Jesus and His Church?

So long as they are still on earth, there is reason to HOPE. PRAY much. Saint Monica, mother of Saint Augustine prayed for more than 30 years,

Your example and prayers CAN make a difference as God alone can cause a conversion.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[MacQ]

Hence we get the countless false accusations trying to discredit us. “They changed the Bible! They threaten dissenters with shunning! They don’t believe in Jesus! They conceal paedophiles…”

We are not wicked people. Many are over-zealous I am sure, but not wicked.

Perhaps you are right. Us JW’s will work out our dellusions at Judgement day!

All the best friend!

Catholics are all too familiar with countless false accusations. (Sad to say some of them come from JW’s it appears…I have encountered some who are “evangelizing” online and think the way to do it is to post hostile (and untrue) things about Catholicism. Just look at comments on any story about the Pope on World net Daily.).

That 144,000 chosen-to-reign-thing you mentioned is quite curious to me…reminds me of the apostles jockeying for special positions.

In any case, I have never thought JW’s to be a wicked people at all.

I don’t interfere with other peoples’ paths to God, nor do I tolerate put-downs of other religions. I might challenge people on some of their statements or tenets…like your 144,000…or people who think they are OSAS…those who seem to delight in the notion that only a few are…or people (and that includes Catholics) who stray into being too cock-sure of what God is thinking.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Hence we get the countless false accusations trying to discredit us…“They threaten dissenters with shunning!”

Logically, I don’t understand how you can say such an untruth as you have about your statements regarding shunning. If you are not honest about this, what else are you not honest about? Should I be like you and be selective about my honesty?

I believe you are a better person than this, and your religion is turning you into something you are not.

The Witnesses do indeed embrace shunning and warn their members that such will be their lot if they leave their ranks.

If, however, a baptized Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible’s moral code and does not repent, he or she will be shunned.–JW.org, “Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Shun Former Members of Their Religion?”

What does “breaking the Bible’s moral code” include? Just sins like adultery?

No, the Jehovah’s Witnesses will also shun you if you freely choose to leave their religion whether you decide to practice another or none at all.

As the official journal of the Jehovah’s Witnesses reported, one woman who “voluntarily disassociated herself by writing a letter withdrawing from the congregation” had “moved away, but years later she returned and found that local Witnesses would not converse with her…Such shunning would be appropriate.”—The Watchtower, April 15, 1988, pp. 26-28.

Claiming that the instruction to “hate what is evil” in Romans 12:9 means to hate people who have left their ranks, the Witnesses have officially confirmed this, stating “We hate them, not in the sense of wanting to do them harm or wishing them harm but in the sense of avoiding them as we would poison or a poisonous snake, for they can poison us spiritually.”—The Watchtower, June 15, 1980, p. 8.

The misapply the text at 2 John 1:10, 11 to validate their hateful actions:

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him; for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

The text represents a situation that was present in the past, when the letter was written, at a time when congregation groups met in a private house and false teachers were looking to speak to Church groups such as these with motives that were far from pure.

A private greeting could not qualify as meeting the criteria of this text since no one would witness it as ‘receiving him in your house’ to consider it as ‘sharing in his evil works.’ When such a false teacher came to the attention of the congregation it was only then that they were not to be welcomed into these public home groups. If this did happen, such a public display of welcome or greeting would be tantamount to going on public record before witnesses that the false teacher’s instruction was accepted by the group.

It should be added that the “doctrine” that such a false instructor would be lacking would be the “new commandment” of loving one’s neighbor in the way that Jesus did. (2 John 4-6) Loving one’s neighbor did not include shunning them, for Scripture teaches that even though such should be considered as a “Gentile or a tax collector,” as Matthew 18:17 puts it, one is not to shun these people if they are to truly love them.–See Mark 2:13-17 and compare with Luke 10:25-37.

 

[pacloc]

A lot has been said about Jehovah Witnesses being “good” people with misunderstandings. I think this has been believed by both them and outsiders for too long. I grew up as a JW and I can tell you that appearances are not always as they seem. JW will appear to be upright as long as they are in front of people, they are in a game where you can become ostracized if you say, do, think the wrong thing. Behind the scenes cliques are formed with mutual understanding of you don’t tell, I won’t tell. Wife swapping is very prevalent. In the congregation I grew up in, multiple young ministerial servants and their wives were involved in sleeping around with other members of the congregation. To top it off, when I was studying with an elder to get baptized, he mentioned a story from when he was young that quite a few JW couples all went on a skiing vacation, and upon return all but his wife and him had swapped spouses while on vacation. He warned me to be careful while with other couples. This sort of thing happened a few times while I was there as well. One woman knowing how my wife and I were becoming more involved and I was on my way to becoming a ministerial servant warned me to not hang out with other couples in fear we could fall for the same thing. The saddest thing is that once someone gets caught and disfellowshipped, they indulge in sinful activity. This religion does not really change hearts, it just gives a front of good conduct. I truly believe that the good JWs in the religion were already good people before their conversion and the JWs are lucky to have them. Spiritual growth does not happen within kingdom halls, just mind control.

And by the way the Bible does say that children were baptized. It is in the book of acts, the whole household was, based on the parents faith. God must have been wrong in requiring children to be circumcised too, they might not want to follow their parents beliefs.

 

[pacloc]

As for the original topic, I too wonder what I am to do with my JW family. They are afraid to discuss religion with me because they know that I know a lot of the flaws in their theology and their shameful origin. It is like what has been mentioned, my mother made a choice a long time ago and it would destroy her world if she was to admit she was wrong. On my way out, while I was still very confused as to what was right, I would bring up flaws in their theology and she would agree and had hope that it would be corrected one day. Things like all JWs “partaking of the emblems”, calling us all born again, 2nd resurrection not happening until after the 1,000 year reign, etc. To top it off, when I try to use logic to explain the flaws of JW belief, she invents her own version, just like logically did. I say that you do not worship Jesus, and she replies yes we do. I say that you think Jesus is Michael the archangel, and she says no we don’t, that is just one of his roles?? I can’t even use facts of their strange beliefs because they are okay with twisting anything to sound free of error.

I pray daily for them to come back to the Church, that my mother gave up for a picture of paradise. I don’t assume to know God’s mercy about heretics, so I am not okay with continuing life like everything is okay between us. I have read too many inspired people quite literally say that those who change the message of Christ and those that follow them will be condemned, I use this as my basis. Too many Catholics are comfortable with the modern view that God will reward everybody, regardless if they were heretics, as long as they were pretty nice people. That is a dangerous attitude, that will lull you to sleep in what you are called to do. Sadly that is the scenario of my Mother in her religion too. If she really thought I was to be destroyed at Armageddon, I would hope that she would discuss religion with me before then.

 

[StevenFrancis]

I have loved ones who have been Jehovah’s Witnesses for decades, since their early 20s. It just seems hopeless that they will ever return home to the Church, despite the prayers of many family members. I am encouraged to see some former JWs on this forum, but it seems like the ones here have done a lot of critical study to come to the point of leaving. Most JWs I am familiar with (including my loved ones) are content to follow whatever the Watchtower Society teaches, even if the teachings at times do a 180. It seems to me that the only hope is a Road to Emmaus type experience or an apparition. Do any former JWs on the forum have any encouragement for me from your personal testimonies? Have you had powerful spiritual conversion experiences that you knew were the work of the Holy Spirit? Or does anyone know of any particular saints (besides St. Jude) who would be especially efficacious in bringing Jehovah’s Witnesses to Jesus and His Church?

I know how you feel to some extent. Two of my adult children have decided on Paganism. Prayer is all we really have. Truth, when asked a question, or in a discussion. And lots of prayer. It seems St. Monica would be an appropriate intercessor as well, as your patron, and others. I didn’t see it in your post itself, but in your headline you asked if it was hopeless. The answer is profoundly and absolutely NO!!! There IS ALWAYS Hope. Besides being the way, the truth and the life, Jesus Christ is also Hope. One thing that has taken me a long time to accept, is that I may not be the agent used by the Holy Spirit to convert my loved ones. In fact, I’ve accepted that I even PROBABLY won’t be the agent used by the Holy Spirit for loved one’s conversions. I have had to let that go. I just pray with the hopeful assurance that somebody, somewhere will at some point, which I may or may not even see or know about, or even be able to witness in my life time, will be an agent for Christ’s call to perfect conversion. Then, it will be up to my loved one’s to follow. They may, or may not heed Christ’s call. But the call will come. I have every faith in that. I also know that when we die, we will not despair, or worry about those who didn’t come. It will be revealed to us why, somehow, and we’ll be understanding of it. There will be no tears, sadness, or anxiety in the kingdom. So, as Saint Pope John Paul II said, “Fear not”.

May the Lord bring you peace, and may God bless and calm you.

I have prayed for your family members.

 

[Logically]

Catholics are all too familiar with countless false accusations. (Sad to say some of them come from JW’s it appears…I have encountered some who are “evangelizing” online and think the way to do it is to post hostile (and untrue) things about Catholicism. Just look at comments on any story about the Pope on World net Daily.)…

I am sad to hear it, but I am sure you are right.
I believe there is a time and a place to point out errors, but we do need to have our facts straight before we do! (There are scriptures which say if you don’t speak out when you learn of wrongdoing, you share in the responsibility) And also to make sure our words are “Seasoned with salt” to quote Jesus. (Who incidentally didn’t shy away from clearly exposing error or falsehood when he needed to)

That 144,000 chosen-to-reign-thing you mentioned is quite curious to me…reminds me of the apostles jockeying for special positions…

The 144,000 is another example where there is a lot of misunderstandings over.

Basically our understanding of Revelation 7 is that God is selecting a set number to rule with Christ in his heavenly kingdom. The Bible shows us that the apostles and other early Christians obviously believed they were destined for a heavenly life to rule with Jesus.

And exactly like you said: Ones assume we must all be “jockeying for position” and that is what motivates us to preach! (“Maybe if I get more success preaching I will be chosen as 144,000!” ) Totally wrong. 99% of JW’s have no thought that they would be among that select few.

At the moment, about 10,000 JW’s consider themselves of this number. (so about 1 in 1000) Notice I use the word “consider”. I am sure many of those are mistaken. I know a very enthusiastic young man who believes he is of that number. (I personally doubt he is)

Who knows? God selects them and lets them know somehow. You would have to ask DelsonJacobs here about what makes someone feel they are of that group. He considered himself one at some stage, yet he later left JW’s. – so presumably was mistaken.

In any case, I have never thought JW’s to be a wicked people at all.

I don’t interfere with other peoples’ paths to God, nor do I tolerate put-downs of other religions. I might challenge people on some of their statements or tenets…like your 144,000…or people who think they are OSAS…those who seem to delight in the notion that only a few are…or people (and that includes Catholics) who stray into being too cock-sure of what God is thinking.

You sound a very reasonable person. Thanks for your thoughts.
I hope you post more.

 

[MacQ]

The 144,000 is another example where there is a lot of misunderstandings over.

Basically our understanding of Revelation 7 is that God is selecting a set number to rule with Christ in his heavenly kingdom. The Bible shows us that the apostles and other early Christians obviously believed they were destined for a heavenly life to rule with Jesus.

And exactly like you said: Ones assume we must all be “jockeying for position” and that is what motivates us to preach! (“Maybe if I get more success preaching I will be chosen as 144,000!” ) Totally wrong. 99% of JW’s have no thought that they would be among that select few.

At the moment, about 10,000 JW’s consider themselves of this number. (so about 1 in 1000) Notice I use the word “consider”. I am sure many of those are mistaken. I know a very enthusiastic young man who believes he is of that number. (I personally doubt he is)

Who knows? God selects them and lets them know somehow. You would have to ask DelsonJacobs here about what makes someone feel they are of that group. He considered himself one at some stage, yet he later left JW’s. – so presumably was mistaken.

You sound a very reasonable person. Thanks for your thoughts.
I hope you post more.

Well, thanks for your explanation…but my “issue” with the chosen idea isn’t so much HOW, or even How MANY.
It’s the premise itself. The “select few”. It seems to me to smack of the Eden problem (wanting to be Gods) at the very least…not to mention that it seems (to me anyway) to be arrogant, and flavored with something that I admit bothers me about the attitude of a lot of Christians of various denominations, and that is the notion that the goal is to be among some “elite”.

I say this only to tell you how it seems to me, acknowledging that I am undoubtedly missing something that I do not fully understand.
In any case, it is not an idea that would draw me to a religion, it would send me running the other way.


BTW: I read your message, and will respond directly there.

 

[adf417]

As for the original topic, I too wonder what I am to do with my JW family. They are afraid to discuss religion with me because they know that I know a lot of the flaws in their theology and their shameful origin. It is like what has been mentioned, my mother made a choice a long time ago and it would destroy her world if she was to admit she was wrong. On my way out, while I was still very confused as to what was right, I would bring up flaws in their theology and she would agree and had hope that it would be corrected one day. Things like all JWs “partaking of the emblems”, calling us all born again, 2nd resurrection not happening until after the 1,000 year reign, etc. To top it off, when I try to use logic to explain the flaws of JW belief, she invents her own version, just like logically did. I say that you do not worship Jesus, and she replies yes we do. I say that you think Jesus is Michael the archangel, and she says no we don’t, that is just one of his roles?? I can’t even use facts of their strange beliefs because they are okay with twisting anything to sound free of error.

I pray daily for them to come back to the Church, that my mother gave up for a picture of paradise. I don’t assume to know God’s mercy about heretics, so I am not okay with continuing life like everything is okay between us. I have read too many inspired people quite literally say that those who change the message of Christ and those that follow them will be condemned, I use this as my basis. Too many Catholics are comfortable with the modern view that God will reward everybody, regardless if they were heretics, as long as they were pretty nice people. That is a dangerous attitude, that will lull you to sleep in what you are called to do. Sadly that is the scenario of my Mother in her religion too. If she really thought I was to be destroyed at Armageddon, I would hope that she would discuss religion with me before then.

pacloc, I think we may have the same mother -

 

[DelsonJacobs]

I am sad to hear it, but I am sure you are right.
I believe there is a time and a place to point out errors, but we do need to have our facts straight before we do! (There are scriptures which say if you don’t speak out when you learn of wrongdoing, you share in the responsibility) And also to make sure our words are “Seasoned with salt” to quote Jesus. (Who incidentally didn’t shy away from clearly exposing error or falsehood when he needed to)

The 144,000 is another example where there is a lot of misunderstandings over.

…I am sure many of those are mistaken. I know a very enthusiastic young man who believes he is of that number. (I personally doubt he is)…

Who knows? God selects them and lets them know somehow. You would have to ask DelsonJacobs here about what makes someone feel they are of that group. He considered himself one at some stage, yet he later left JW’s. – so presumably was mistaken.

Actually elders told me it was impossible to be of the 144,000 and that any heavenly hope I had inside should be ignored. One of them came to my home and yelled at me for 30 minutes to tell me how wrong I was for even thinking along those lines.

But I was not mistaken about having the heavenly hope. I still do. All Catholics do.

On top of telling me that the Jews deserved to die in the Nazi ovens of the holocaust, the elders also told me that God stopped choosing people for heavenly life in 1935, and that on the basis of this “truth” from “Jehovah’s one true religion”–a truth that could never be changed–I was not allowed to have a heavenly hope.

But you Logically–Who are you to doubt the hope of the “enthusiastic young man who believes” God is calling him to heaven? Why do you, Logically, disobey the Scripture that reads:

Who are you to pass judgment on someone else’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.–Romans 14:4.

Is there hope for those in a religion that practices deception, not telling the truth about their shunning practices and ignoring questions about them?

Is there hope for people who doubt the faith of others, judging that God has called them to a heavenly hope?

 

[DelsonJacobs]

At the moment, about 10,000 JW’s consider themselves of this number.

One more note, I don’t how you can be so inaccurate about your own faith.

The number of Jehovah’s Witnesses who currently consider themselves to be of the 144,000 is 13,204 (as of the official count made of claimants as appears in the annual *Service Report of Jehovah’s Witnesses: 2013). *

The last time the Witnesses had 10,000 claiming to be of that number was in 2008 and 2009. The same annual report, which gets published yearly in *The Watchtower *and the Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses had claimants at 9986 in 2008 and 10,857 in 2009.

Usually Jehovah’s Witnesses are very exact with figures and keep up with their own facts about their religion better than others.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I am beginning to question the validity of this individual who calls himself a JW. If you were really a JW you would know these figures better than me.

Regardless of anything critical I have ever had to say about Jehovah’s Witnesses, one thing I do know for a fact and highly praise them for is their ability to know their religion inside and out.

I would hate for us to be discussing the JW faith with someone who is not being honest about their position in it. Errors about JWs can be spread by imposters, and one thing we don’t need on CAF is inaccurate information about the Witnesses.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Ha. Very well said.

We simply are convinced of what we believe and think others should examine the evidence too. We really want others to check it out and see if it adds up.
We could wait for them to come and ask us, but instead we go to them and try to get them thinking about subjects.
Of course we can’t force anyone to start believing what we believe. We don’t even do that to our own dear children! (Jehovah’s Witnesses do not baptise infants since there is no mention of that in the Bible) We leave it to our young ones to decide when (and if) they want to get baptised into Jehovah’s service. So almost never before they are teenagers. (I hear only about a third do stay JW’s)

But most of those who are in our congregations studied as adults and decided themselves to change their lives. (from all sorts of religions, no-religion or atheist) I have twice done surveys asking if members of my congregation were raised JW’s, and 70% and 90% said “no.”
They examined it as adults and decided to change their beliefs because they became convinced it was true.

And that is why they can go out and do the door-to-door preaching work! They have convinced themselves by the evidence they have examined that it is the truth. Therefore they can explain and prove it to others.

Which I (personally) think intimidates a lot of religious leaders who know their parishioners can not do that. They know three things: 1. The typical JW knows a lot more about the Bible than the typical member of their church, 2. JW’s believe very different things from their church, 3. JW’s are all motivated to visit people and offer free Bible studies! - A very dangerous combination!

Hence we get the countless false accusations trying to discredit us. “They changed the Bible! They threaten dissenters with shunning! They don’t believe in Jesus! They conceal paedophiles…”

We are not wicked people. Many are over-zealous I am sure, but not wicked.

Perhaps you are right. Us JW’s will work out our dellusions at Judgement day!

All the best friend!

This is part of the dishonesty which annoys most people I know who come into contact with JW’s. Point 1 is an interesting assertion and no doubt is what JW’s tell themselves however this is simply not true. Point 2 I have never run into a JW who is upfront about these differences. Point 3 Although the JW says they want to talk about the bible this just isn’t true they really want to talk about Watch Tower doctrine, if for example one starts to talk about the Bible they just switch off. In my experience if one even displays a pedestrian knowledge of the bible and the subject matter that the JW want’s to discuss they leave very quickly.

If JW’s were honestly interested in all the things they say they are perhaps the general perception of them would be different. However the façade they present is very thin and one quickly works out that they are only interested in disseminating Watch Tower propaganda and gaining another traveling salesman for the Watch Tower mercantile machine.

The bottom line is that the organisation is just not honest, they employ deceptive tactics from the top down and spend countless hours teaching the rank and file how to do the same.

 

[pacloc]

Regardless of anything critical I have ever had to say about Jehovah’s Witnesses, one thing I do know for a fact and highly praise them for is their ability to know their religion inside and out.

I have thought about this and spoke it over with my wife who too was once a JW. We both agree that this is not true about most JWs. I would guess maybe a 1/4 or less could be described to “know their religion inside and out.” My wife certainly did not, nor my mother, nor any sister in our hall. The elders and ministerial servants mostly know their religion very well, but still a few blindly glossed over their strange doctrines. The religion is very good at controlling the minds of its believers. Once they catch on to the “what other religion knows war no more, is doing world-wide preaching, knows what happens to the dead, etc” the average Jdub could care less about the strange beliefs about 1914, two class system, Jesus not their mediator, not receiving on Nisan 14, Michael the Archangel, early strangeness with pyramids and Beth Sarim. All they need to know is they do not participate in war and preach world wide, then they can close their brain. On my way out, I would make comments and give parts that were not JW teaching and everyone thought how great talks and comments I gave. I have run into a friend that was once a ministerial servant that did similar things, preaching apostate teaching from the platform, and they loved it. As long as you are a Jdub they trust you because they do not really know their own faith.