Is there any possible position higher than Queen of Heaven?

[TheNeutral]

Matthew 18:14
“4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 18:4 NRSVCE - - Bible Gateway

Matthew 20:16
“16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last.””

Matthew 20:16 NRSVCE - - Bible Gateway

Yet the Catholic doctrines say that Mary is the “Queen of Heaven”. Some may argue that Mary did, indeed, live a humble life, but so did the disciples, and unlike them, Mary didn’t have to get murdered (martyred). I know they say Mary was the result of an immaculate conception (she supposedly had no sin), however, I think the fact that us originals(sinners) actually had to wrestle with the clutches of original sin should only help our case in Heaven, not worsen it. Yes, Mary supposedly did love God more than all of us could, but she also had the inherit capacity to do so as well. It’s not fair to race Usain Bolt against a Fat Man and then “reward” Usain for winning; It was never a competition.

I honestly can’t see how someone like Paul the Apostle, Enoch, Elijah, and Michael the Archangel are below her.

I look forward to your answers… Please don’t kill me.

 

[De_Maria]

I look forward to your answers… Please don’t kill me.

Well, if you asked a question, you also answered it.

It was never a competition.

When St. Paul refers to “winning the race”, he is not talking about a competition with others. He is talking about a competition with ourselves. We drive our bodies, we must persevere to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:23 All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.
24 [a]Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

But, I do understand what you’re talking about. Our Lady was united to the Holy Spirit from her conception. St. John the Baptist was united to the Holy Spirit from the womb. Jesus Christ picked the Apostles by His own hand. God spoke to Moses, face to face. God picked David above all others. And God made the Prophet Jeremiah, a prophet from the womb. Oh, so unfair!

It sort of supports that pesky Doctrine that we rarely talk about. Predestination.

No, not Calvin’s mess. The Catholic Doctrine of Predestionation. Look it up.

 

[Spyridon]

Are you familiar with the Hebrew word Gebirah? It means Great Lady.

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, and if you believe Jesus is the King of Heaven and Earth, you must believe Mary is the Queen. If Mary is not the Queen then Jesus cannot be the King.

The Gebirah, the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Judah, was an official position held by the mother of the Davidic kings. She was the most important and influential woman in the royal court and the king’s chief counselor.

The Hebrew word gebirah is found 15 times in the Old Testament and can be translated as “Queen Mother,” or “Great Lady” [Genesis 16:4, 8, 9, 1 Kings 11:19 (used for the Egyptian Queen Mother); 15:13; 2 Kings 5:3; 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16; Psalm 123:2; Proverbs 30:23; Isaiah 24:2; 47:5, 7; Jeremiah 13:18; 29:2]. In Sacred Scripture, the mother of the Davidic king is listed along with her son in the books of 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles when he assumes the throne.

The only queen mother not listed are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of Ahab and Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18]; King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3]; and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David. In the case of Asa, his grandmother retained the title Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson.

Scripture indicates that the Gebirah assumed a throne alongside her son [see 1 Kings 2:19] and exercised her role as counselor [2 Chronicles 22:3] and intercessor to the king [1 Kings 2:13-21]. In times of conquest, both the king and his mother represented royal power [2 Kings 24:12].

The Gebirah was clearly the most important woman in the Kingdom of Judah; a king had many wives, but only one mother. The Gebirah of the eternal Davidic Kingdom of Jesus Christ is Mary of Nazareth

 

[Techno2000]

Mary didn’t have to get murdered (martyred)

In her Heart she did, because she was with Jesus every step of the way of the cross.

The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him. Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

 

[De_Maria]

TheNeutral:

Mary didn’t have to get murdered (martyred)

In her Heart she did, because she was with Jesus every step of the way of the cross.

The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him. Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

Very good point! If we think about a mother’s love for her child, which is considered the greatest love known to mankind. Mary loved Jesus more than any other person in the world. No other person would have the capacity to love Him as she did.

In addition, any mother who sees their child being tortured, suffers with their child. Therefore, as the saying goes, there were two people on the Cross that fateful day. Jesus and Mary. Because Mary would surely feel, in her heart, every stripe that was inflicted upon her beloved Son.

And that explains why Mary was chosen by God from the moment of her conception and fortified by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. Because only Mary would have been able to withstand such pain and sorrow without becoming bitter against God.

 

[Vico]

…
I honestly can’t see how someone like Paul the Apostle, Enoch, Elijah, and Michael the Archangel are below her.
…

Catechism

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”. 136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”. 137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”. By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

 

[JasonL69]

Gebirah sounds like Gabriel who is only mentioned in the NT.

 

[TheNeutral]

This still doesn’t quite explain it though. Some of you have stated that Mary loved God more than anyone ever could, but that ignores the fact that she had the enhanced capability to do so.

It would be like a container for a liquid; In this case, we were only given a gallon’s capacity, Mary was given a ton’s. How then can we be judged as lesser than her when we too did the best we could?

We literally couldn’t love God as much as Mary, but that doesn’t mean we didn’t love him as much as we could. I could lift a greater amount of weights than a 4 year old, but that doesn’t mean he should be rewarded lesser be they still tried.

Yes, we are evil, sinful, corrupted beings, however, unlike Mary, we have to actually fight our sin (rather than simply not falling into it), and that seems to be completely ignored by God. Our earthly inhibitors are now our inhibitors in Heaven.

[ Imagine: A man who’s sole mission is to be the first in Heaven; He preaches, testifies, loves God to the fullest, keeps his commandments, sells his possessions, has faith, love, and works… Sins occasionally, but repents with the utmost sorrow and sincerity. Becomes a monk, priest, then eventually gets martyred and becomes a saint.

His Judgment comes… Jesus is ecstatic over all this man has done for him; They talk for a bit, yet his fate is automatic Heaven. He, Jesus, and the surrounding Angels (including his Guardian Angel) all celebrate… Mary is there celebrating too. Jesus, gentlemanly, outstretches a hand facing towards the golden gates and says “welcome to paradise; welcome to 3rd place” (Trinity → Mary → He). ]

The 12 disciples have positions of their own, including the elders, so He could be lower, but nonetheless, this man, who loved God with all his heart, body, mind, and soul, could never reach the “greatest” position he was promised.

Just doesn’t add up

 

[1ke]

Yet the Catholic doctrines say that Mary is the “Queen of Heaven”. Some may argue that Mary did, indeed, live a humble life, but so did the disciples, and unlike them, Mary didn’t have to get murdered (martyred). I know they say Mary was the result of an immaculate conception (she supposedly had no sin), however, I think the fact that us originals(sinners) actually had to wrestle with the clutches of original sin should only help our case in Heaven, not worsen it. Yes, Mary supposedly did love God more than all of us could, but she also had the inherit capacity to do so as well. It’s not fair to race Usain Bolt against a Fat Man and then “reward” Usain for winning; It was never a competition.

The title Queen of Heaven is a relational title, not a title of rank or authority. She is Queen of Heaven because Christ is the King and she is his mother.

I honestly can’t see how someone like Paul the Apostle, Enoch, Elijah, and Michael the Archangel are below her.

None of them gave birth to God.

BTW, as far as original sin goes: Adam and Eve did not have original sin, and yet they sinned.

 

[Spyridon]

Gebirah and Gabriel are etymologically unrelated. Gebirah means “Great Lady or Queen Mother” and Gabriel means “Strength of God”. I can break down the etymologies further if need be.

And Gabriel is not mentioned only in the NT. He is also mentioned in the OT Book of Daniel, as well as being mentioned several times in intertestamental apocryphal literature as well as pseudepigraphical Christian writings.

 

[De_Maria]

The 12 disciples have positions of their own, including the elders, so He could be lower, but nonetheless, this man, who loved God with all his heart, body, mind, and soul, could never reach the “greatest” position he was promised.

Just doesn’t add up

Huh? Who promised him the greatest position?

Romans 12:3New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

Many Parts in One Body. 3 For by the grace given to me I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than one ought to think, but to think soberly, each according to the measure of faith that God has apportioned.

God has given us each a portion of faith. He gave me more than you, obviously. And though you’re trying really hard, you can’t catch up.

Seriously, though. It’s not a competition. Do the best you can and fill your vessel to capacity. It’s a smaller vessel than Mary’s. So, don’t leave it half empty. Use every little bit and try to make it overflow.

 

[Techno2000]

This still doesn’t quite explain it though. Some of you have stated that Mary loved God more than anyone ever could, but that ignores the fact that she had the enhanced capability to do so.

It would be like a container for a liquid; In this case, we were only given a gallon’s capacity, Mary was given a ton’s. How then can we be judged as lesser than her when we too did the best we could?

We literally couldn’t love God as much as Mary, but that doesn’t mean we didn’t love him as much as we could. I could lift a greater amount of weights than a 4 year old, but that doesn’t mean he should be rewarded lesser be they still tried.

Yes, we are evil, sinful, corrupted beings, however, unlike Mary, we have to actually fight our sin (rather than simply not falling into it), and that seems to be completely ignored by God. Our earthly inhibitors are now our inhibitors in Heaven.

[ Imagine: A man who’s sole mission is to be the first in Heaven; He preaches, testifies, loves God to the fullest, keeps his commandments, sells his possessions, has faith, love, and works… Sins occasionally, but repents with the utmost sorrow and sincerity. Becomes a monk, priest, then eventually gets martyred and becomes a saint.

His Judgment comes… Jesus is ecstatic over all this man has done for him; They talk for a bit, yet his fate is automatic Heaven. He, Jesus, and the surrounding Angels (including his Guardian Angel) all celebrate… Mary is there celebrating too. Jesus, gentlemanly, outstretches a hand facing towards the golden gates and says “welcome to paradise; welcome to 3rd place” (Trinity → Mary → He). ]

The 12 disciples have positions of their own, including the elders, so He could be lower, but nonetheless, this man, who loved God with all his heart, body, mind, and soul, could never reach the “greatest” position he was promised.

Just doesn’t add up

You will get whatever you deserve in Heaven.

 

[twf]

Fair? Have you read the parable of the workers who start their day in the vineyard at different points in time? You sound like the workers who toiled during the heat of the day and then complain when the Master pays those who started in the evening a full days wage.
Put aside modern American concepts of egalitarianism. God created His own Mother to be the most beautiful of all His creations. Marvel at her beauty and praise God for it.

 

[Vico]

This still doesn’t quite explain it though. Some of you have stated that Mary loved God more than anyone ever could, but that ignores the fact that she had the enhanced capability to do so. … Just doesn’t add up

Yes it adds up. There is no merit given without the state of grace, and merit is given through meritorious actions. Now nobody has the state of grace without God first giving it, but it is not efficacious without our cooperation. The Blessed Virgin Mary has the greatest merit besides the infinite merit of Christ. From Modern Catholic Dictionary (Merit):

Divine reward for the practice of virtue. It is Catholic doctrine that by his good works a person in the state of grace really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from God. “The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be performed meritoriously” (II Council of Orange, Denzinger 388).

Certain conditions must be present to make supernatural merit possible. The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances. It must be done freely, without any external coercion or internal necessity. It must be supernatural, that is, aroused and accompanied by actual grace, and proceeding from a supernatural motive. The person must be a wayfarer, here on earth, since no one can merit after death.

Strictly speaking only a person in the state of grace can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

Merit depends on the free ordinance of God to reward with everlasting happiness the good works performed by his grace. On account of the infinite distance between Creator and creature, a human being alone cannot make God his or her debtor, if God does not do so by his own free ordinance. That God has made such an ordinance is clear from his frequent promises, e.g., the Beatitudes and the prediction of the Last Judgment.

The object of supernatural merit is an increase of sanctifying grace, eternal life (if the person dies in divine friendship), and an increase of heavenly glory.

 

[JasonL69]

I always wondered what happened to the gold, frankincense and myrrh…

 

[TheNeutral]

“Put aside modern American concepts of egalitarianism. God created His own Mother to be the most beautiful of all His creations. Marvel at her beauty and praise God for it.”

-twf

… What?

 

[Mary_Ellen]

immaculate conception (she supposedly had no sin)

That Mary was the result of the Immaculate Conception means that she was born without stain of Original Sin. That she remained sinless is a separate issue. Adam and Eve were created without Original Sin and they were tempted and fell. There is nothing in Catholic Teaching that says Mary was never tempted to Sin. Even Jesus was tempted! What the Church does teach is that she never fell to any temptations to sin.

It’s not fair to race Usain Bolt against a Fat Man and then “reward” Usain for winning; It was never a competition.

A more realistic comparison would be a race between a fully intact person with legs and an amputee with running prosthesis. Yes, it is fair.

It would be like a container for a liquid; In this case, we were only given a gallon’s capacity, Mary was given a ton’s. How then can we be judged as lesser than her when we too did the best we could?

But both containers are fully satisfied in being filled and do not envy one another. A cup is a cup, a bottle a bottle, a cask a cask…each filled to its capacity fulfills its destiny. There is no envy in Heaven.

unlike Mary, we have to actually fight our sin (rather than simply not falling into it), and that seems to be completely ignored by God. Our earthly inhibitors are now our inhibitors in Heaven.

No, we do not fight our sin, we fight our concupiscence, or tendency to sin. God does not ignore this, He sent His Son, born of Mary, to save us by suffering, being crucified, experiencing death, and by rising again. This is hardly being “ignored by God.”

Just doesn’t add up

Sure it does. Jesus said that our positions in Heaven are the prerogative of His Father and are not up to Him (Jesus) and certainly not up to us. God chose Mary as Queen of Heaven because of her fiats, her saying "yes"to the Will of God not only at the Incarnation but throughout her life. That’s enough for me.
I’m sure, though, that this did not add up for Satan who envies Mary and her position more than any of us ever could. Imagine, as Queen of Heaven she is even above the angels.

 

[twf]

I’m saying stop thinking that everyone is entitled to the same graces. God bestows upon those Who He wills what He wills.

 

[runningdude]

For the truly humble of spirit, one’s “rank” in heaven is irrelevant.

 

[twf]

Our Lady is the greatest and most beautiful of all God’s creatures. This is certain. She is the perfect prototype of deified (redeemed) mankind.