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Taestron
Guest
Don’t worry. I know the official Church teaching, so I didn’t take this to mean it is just fine.
But I understand your concern.
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But I understand your concern.
po18guy
Well-known member
As always, it is a matter of first accepting, then trusting authority. The exact same Church authority responsible for the finished product that we know as the bible also declared a name for the mysterious process that occurs during the consecration. The process itself is not understandable to man, precisely because it is supernatural.Well, it is precisely because I am Protestant that I desire some sort of rational defense of transubstantiation as the only proper way to view the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I have heard apologists from Catholic Answers state explicitly that the authority issue is the fundamental difference between Catholics and Protestants. Well, at the moment I think like a Protestant in this regard. Right now I am exploring whether or not the CC’s teachings are trustworthy or not, so I want reasons for why the Church rejects something that seems (at least on the surface) just as plausible and supported by Scripture. I know that sounds like an arrogant Protestant, but at the moment, it is the only way I know how to explore spiritual matters. But you do raise a good point. This discussion has gone far afield in my search. Sorry for making it a philosophical discussion.I do intend to take up your suggestion about adoration.
P.S. For anybody who is interested. I found this calledtocommunion.com/2010/12/church-fathers-on-transubstantiation/ that offers a good explanation for the support of transubstantiation in the Church fathers.
Your honesty is refreshing, as well as your attitude. You are testing the spirits - and that is always good. In examining Catholic beliefs, maybe think about reversing your process and asking why one should hold to protestant teaching. I mention this, since they are a departure from both the ancient Catholic and Eastern Orthodox beliefs. It is less difficult to question others’ beliefs after first questioning your own. We know from 2 Peter 3:16-17 that scripture is capable of being twisted. We know that Peter addressed the issue, which was a serious problem even 2,000 years ago.
From a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox perspective, some of what you have been taught as a protestant is error. Not all of it, but enough of it that you are troubled as you seek the truth.
I didn’t read through all of your posts. Have you read the catechism on “Transsubstantiation” and “Eucharist”?
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Taestron
Guest
This makes perfect sense… Not very satisfying, but then again, I don’t know why I expected anything labeled a Mystery to be satisfying to my mondernist ideals. I don’t know why this issue is comparatively more troubling for me. I have had little trouble with accepting many things the CC teaches over and against the “Protestant” understanding (i.e. Marian Dogmas, intercession of the saints, sola fide), but I don’t know, transubstantiation seems so… Catholic. And for some reason that scares the living daylights out of me. Oh, to answer your question, I have not read any portion of the catechism. I’ve been meaning to, but it keeps slipping my mind.
po18guy
Well-known member
From the catechism under “Transubstantiation”:
The presence of Christ by the power of his word and the Holy Spirit
1373 “Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us,” is present in many ways to his Church:197 in his word, in his Church’s prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"199 in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,199 in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."200
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.204
And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.205
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206
1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.207
1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).
There are far too many paragraphs under “Eucharist” to post here. Catechisms are $8. From my viewpoint, don’t let the evil one trip you up on a detail! He always throws a roadblock in front of us. It was always Mary for me. The Holy Spirit erased those objections at a parish bible study. Bam! Gone.
Better than understanding transubstantiation (which no pope or council ever has), far better to experience its effects at adoration. Not kidding. I have experienced miracles in prayer before our Eucharistic Lord. Supernatural stuff.
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mlz
Guest
Dear believer in Christ,
I am a recent convert after 3 years Of many questions, reading , listening to CD’s & going to Adoration. Do you read or willing to? I agree that Catholic for Dummies is good but if you want to understand the Mass a book by Scott Hahn (The Lamb’s Supper. .or something close to that. As a Protestant we are so use to the sermon being the “highlight” of our worship. However the Eucharist is front & center at the Mass. But I do understand. I had trouble not being able to receive communion-in fact to begin with it irritated me. Going into the Church alone and pray , Especially in front of the Blessed Sacrament during Adoration were very, Very powerful. I did that. Score e er coming to Mass. Send me a private email and I would be more than happy to share more of
Y testimony
mlz
I am a recent convert after 3 years Of many questions, reading , listening to CD’s & going to Adoration. Do you read or willing to? I agree that Catholic for Dummies is good but if you want to understand the Mass a book by Scott Hahn (The Lamb’s Supper. .or something close to that. As a Protestant we are so use to the sermon being the “highlight” of our worship. However the Eucharist is front & center at the Mass. But I do understand. I had trouble not being able to receive communion-in fact to begin with it irritated me. Going into the Church alone and pray , Especially in front of the Blessed Sacrament during Adoration were very, Very powerful. I did that. Score e er coming to Mass. Send me a private email and I would be more than happy to share more of
Y testimony
mlz
5
504Katrin
Guest
this was put so wonderfully! I almost had tears in my eyesAmen!
OP: Try to imagine that you are in the upper room at the last supper - which you are. Imagine the entire host of heaven hovering overhead when the “Holy, Holy, Holy” is sung - which they are. Place yourself at the foot of the cross - where you spiritually are. It is for a Divine and eternal reason that it is called the sacrifice of the mass. It’s main intent is not to preach, although you hear that as well. At the mass, which has never ended once Christ began it, time stands still. Time is made irrelevant, as the One Mass is made present to us. Since you cannot yet receive, place yourself in the person of the centurion who exclaimed “Surely, this man was the Son of God!” Talk - even preaching - is cheap, but being in the physical presence of Christ is priceless. It does not matter which Priest is there. He can be a lifelong friend, or one whom you have never seen before. What matters is that Christ is made present to us. When we see Him returning on the clouds of heaven, will all the preaching in the world even matter to us?
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PJM
Guest
Maybe now? But what about then?
As always a sincere question my friend?
Continued blessings Jon,
Pat
Hi Pat,
No, consubstantiation has never been the position of Luther or Lutheranism. The reason is it is, similarly to Transubstantiation, a metaphysical/philosphical construct. What we do say is what Christ tells us: the consecrated bread IS His body, the consecrated wine IS His blood. How this can be is a mystery which Christ did not reveal.
If one reads the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, written by Melanchthon, but certainly approved of by Luther, one can see the view of the Lutheran reformers.
bookofconcord.org/defense_8_holysupper.php
Jon
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PJM
Guest
IFAgain our Church is not that much strict as protestant cults, in the end the Church will also agree that those who incidentally unconsciously dishonoring Christ By receiving him, as to whether they are protestants and did not confess, still they will be judge according to their conscience and Knowledge. We, who read the Catholic Catechism are oblige to follow or all what we read regarding the rules of the Church. Since we all know that we should confess before receive the communion then we must do it. We are educated much in Catholic Teachings, it should strictly applied to us, God knows what are doing, He knows what is in our hearts and mind. God is merciful right?
They do so knowingly they risk there own salvation!
What God taught, is clearly understood, accepted and practiced by the SUPER-majorty of Catholics.
Paul is explicit in His Teaching:
1st. Cor. 11:
D.R. Bible
[21] For every one taketh before his own supper to eat. And one indeed is hungry and another is drunk. [22] What, have you not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God; and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? Do I praise you? In this I praise you not. [23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep".
God Bless,
Pat
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robwar
Guest
you might not find the kind to preaching you are use to but you are absolutely always welcome to attend mass. concentrate of the liturgy of the word and why those reading were put together, just try to relax and use the time for prayer and quietness. If you can try to attend weekly mass which is shorter and offers more time for prayer before and afterwards.
you can always come up to either a priest or deacon and across your arms to receive a blessing. keep coming though and don’t give up.
God bless you!
C
ConsciousCoward
Guest
I have been known to attend Mass with my Catholic friends from time to time, and my reasoning is simple. Though I am not Catholic, I am a believer in God and a believer in redemption through Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for us. As a result of that belief, I feel that no amount of worship is enough to completely express my gratitude for the grace, mercy, and love of God. To go to Mass is to worship and express that gratitude, even if it is in a different environment than my upbringing has made me familiar with.
Beyond that, Mass is not that different from the services I usually attend on Sunday mornings, at least in terms of liturgy, with the exception that it is, in fact, more structured. My service will usually have a slightly longer sermon in place of the homily, for example, but the general order of things is the same. I don’t feel as uncomfortable attending Mass as I do attending, say, a non-denominational service where there is a full band playing on a stage, complete with lights and projectors. Mass is not distracting. And though I cannot take communion at a Catholic church, I’ll still continue going to Mass occasionally, and I will continue enjoying the time spent worshiping with other believers. It’s really just another community of faith, as far as I’m concerned, and it isn’t like I’m doing myself any harm by joining them sometimes.
That’s the reason I go to Mass when I do, anyway. Your experiences and views on it seem to be somewhat different, though.
God bless you all.
Beyond that, Mass is not that different from the services I usually attend on Sunday mornings, at least in terms of liturgy, with the exception that it is, in fact, more structured. My service will usually have a slightly longer sermon in place of the homily, for example, but the general order of things is the same. I don’t feel as uncomfortable attending Mass as I do attending, say, a non-denominational service where there is a full band playing on a stage, complete with lights and projectors. Mass is not distracting. And though I cannot take communion at a Catholic church, I’ll still continue going to Mass occasionally, and I will continue enjoying the time spent worshiping with other believers. It’s really just another community of faith, as far as I’m concerned, and it isn’t like I’m doing myself any harm by joining them sometimes.
That’s the reason I go to Mass when I do, anyway. Your experiences and views on it seem to be somewhat different, though.
God bless you all.
P
PJM
Guest
Beautifully put my friend;
Have you considered the reality of God’s own teaching?
Does this seem like a STRANGE question?
Are you aware that NOT one time; never -ever has God; Yahweh or Christ taught ot PERMITTED:
Belief in more than One God [Trinue]
Or More than ONLY one set of Faith beliefs [there’s] as handed on to:
Or more than one “chosen people”:
OT the Jewish nation
NT because they “denined Him”; today’s Catholic Church: mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; Mt. 28:16-20; Mk.16: 15-20 and these; EACH of which is Jesus speaking specifically to His Apostles; on whom Christ OWN Church [Mt. 16:19] is founded
Matt.28: 19 “Go [YOU: Singular] therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” …John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you [SINGULAR] all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. [singular] ” … John:20:19-22 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, [The First Pentecost Sunday] the doors being shut where the disciples [apostles] were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Jesus said to them [the apostles] again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” [SINGULAR] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.”
John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”
Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
God Bless you my friend,
pat /PJM
There are TONS of Biblical evidence to support these positions.
po18guy
Well-known member
Very well said. Let us pray that your attitude is contagious.
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