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montanaman
Guest
Meditation per se isn’t wrong. Being silent with a mind and heart oriented to God is certainly not wrong.
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gogogirl
Guest
I guess that is why prior to joining the church, I avoided almost all organized religion. I was baptised Methodist in high school of my own choosing but left that for the same reasons. What is the purpose of being part of a church or parish, when people can’t even practice the faith at mass. Why can’t we pray and be religious without all the interference from an organized church. I am a very spiritual person. I pray constantly. I just wonder why I have to go to Mass, go to confession, do x, y, and z in order to cleanse my soul. I say silent prayers all the time but I don’t make the sign of the cross. I don’t do all the little ritual and all that jazz. I felt like praying was so much easier and personal before I had a bunch of people telling me how to do it. Even you all have a strange way of trying to teach people stuff. Oh, if you don’t get it right it is because you are not a good enough Christian or you have the wrong understanding of what Christianity is. I thought we reached out to others and went to church in order to gain assistance in our path to holiness. All that does is distract me and magnify my imperfections and lead me further away from holiness than I have ever been in my entire life.
I was a better Catholic before I joined the church in all honesty. I wasn’t part of the church so my transgressions were not frowned upon. The attitude was “She’s not Catholic so we will excuse her.” Now that I am Catholic, people expect me to go to communion every time. Well, with what is in my heart, I don’t feel that it is acceptable to partake of the body and blood of our lord and savior. Not going to communion is like wearing the scarlett letter A.
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JaneFrances
Guest
Case in point. . .Know the difference between Catholic doctrine and a random Catholic’s opinion!
You know what, YES meditation is new age! It’s also Catholic, Buddist, Jewish, and I’d even suspect some hard core atheists have dabbled in meditation. Meditation is a form of thought that is meant to express your reflections. The morality and value of your meditation depends on the content of your reflection. Countless very orthodox Catholic mystics have depended upon meditation for their prayer and conversion. Don’t knock it 'til you’ve tried it.
And as for yoga. . .Traditional Eastern spiritual yoga practice is indeed contrary to Christian discipline. Now, if I choose to get on the floor on all fours in the cow and cat poses to stretch out my lower back which is plagued by preganacy induced cramping, I am quite certain that I’m not jeopardizing my soul in the process.
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gogogirl
Guest
Actually, I love to meditate but have not done so for fear I was opening myself up to the devil. There are many spiritual things that I have ceased since joining the church because the church apparently frowns upon them. While there may not be any written rules, many of the apologists on this forum have referred to many things as being frowned upon. Why is it that even in the forums where opinion is not allowed that many things are presented as being frowned upon.
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StCsDavid
Guest
First of all, I’m not going to pretend that I have any words of wisdom that are going to give you an epiphany. I will say that sometimes it’s easy to focus on The Church and not see The Christ, which is what it’s all about. I’m the first to admit that I have been guilty of that, especially in this forum which is kind of like championship wrestling apologetics. There are a lot of very educated, thoughtful, loving, and well-intended folks in here, but even so, we’re an acquired taste. This forum isn’t always the best source.
You and Christ have a relationship…at whatever level. That’s all that is important. It is an individual relationship that exists because God felt it important enough to create you. He loves you, even in your state of confusion. Your journey in the faith is just that…a journey. No judgement has been cast in stone for you. RCIA is wonderful in some parishes and downright sad in others, but no matter how good it is…it’s just a starting point.
Keep going to mass, but try not to worry about The Church so much. It’s just you and Jesus. He said it himself that he didn’t come down here to condemn, but to save. He expects you to sin. That part is really no suprise to Him. St. Faustina said that Christ told her that it wasn’t the sin that wounded His heart, but the lack of trust in His mercy. He loves you no matter what you do. You cannot lose His love, you can only choose not to embrace it and not trust in His mercy.
If your parish has an adoration chapel, go and sit with the Lord. Don’t worry about what prayer to say. Just sit and listen and be at peace with Christ.
You are in my prayers, tonight.
David
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JaneFrances
Guest
You say that you were a better Catholic before you joined there church. . .Hmmmm. . .That’s so interesting. If this is truly your experience, is it possible that someone, somewhere, somehow has succeeded in sabotoging your good intentions?
I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “we” have a strange way of teaching people. . .“Oh, if you don’t get it right it is because you are not a good enough Christian or you have the wrong understanding of what Christianity is. I thought we reached out to others and went to church in order to gain assistance in our path to holiness.”
I haven’t read anyone in this thread who has insinuated that you aren’t a good enough Christian. In fact, at almost every turn I have read people encouraging you on your journey with the emphasis on how typical your struggles are to all Christians.
And do you really believe it’s “strange” that there might be people out there who, out of love and concern for you, would point out that you might not entirely understand this faith you are threatening to abandon?
YES, YES, YES. . .we ARE supposed to reach out to others to assist them in their path to holiness! Don’t doubt for a second that is the whole reason why people are posting here!
“My brothers, the case may arise among you of someone straying from the truth, and of another bringing him back. Remember this: the person who brings a sinner back from his way will save his soul from death and cancel a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 5:19-20)
Come back?
I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “we” have a strange way of teaching people. . .“Oh, if you don’t get it right it is because you are not a good enough Christian or you have the wrong understanding of what Christianity is. I thought we reached out to others and went to church in order to gain assistance in our path to holiness.”
I haven’t read anyone in this thread who has insinuated that you aren’t a good enough Christian. In fact, at almost every turn I have read people encouraging you on your journey with the emphasis on how typical your struggles are to all Christians.
And do you really believe it’s “strange” that there might be people out there who, out of love and concern for you, would point out that you might not entirely understand this faith you are threatening to abandon?
YES, YES, YES. . .we ARE supposed to reach out to others to assist them in their path to holiness! Don’t doubt for a second that is the whole reason why people are posting here!
“My brothers, the case may arise among you of someone straying from the truth, and of another bringing him back. Remember this: the person who brings a sinner back from his way will save his soul from death and cancel a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 5:19-20)
Come back?
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Lorarose
Guest
For whatever reason you seem very angry with people who are only trying to help you.
You are generalizing and making assumptions - not very easy to carry on a conversation that way.
Good luck to you.
You are generalizing and making assumptions - not very easy to carry on a conversation that way.
Good luck to you.
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gogogirl
Guest
Thank you for your concern. I am not a cradle Catholic and do not know all that you seem to know. I think your post may have helped me make the decision that I need to make. I think I am finished with the Catholic Church. I have tried to respond to the posts the best I can. I thought that this was a forum to get help understanding the church better. If I wanted to simply generalize and make assumptions, I would have walked away without seeking the advice of anyone.
May God bless you and all your Catholic cohorts!
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JaneFrances
Guest
Wow. That’s it, eh?
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Lorarose
Guest
I urge you to reread your posts. It appears to me that you have a tendency to assume the worst - that people aren’t taking their faith seriously (how do you know?) - that they are judging you during mass (how do you know?) - that people here don’t think you are a good enough christian (who said that?)
It simply is sad to see this anger. The people on this thread have tried to encourage you - what have we all done that is so wrong?
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Eileen_T
Guest
Are you praying? I ask because this is usually a problem when one is experiencing spiritual dryness, and many if not all of us will have some experience of that.
When Fr John Corapi had abandoned the Church and its teachings, and was a homeless person with too much pride to go home, his mother somehow persuaded him to say ONE Hail Mary every day.
One Hail Mary eventually became a daily Rosary, which eventually led him not only back to the Church but also to the priesthood.
Have you heard Fr Corapi speak? You can get a free copy of his story here catholicity.com/maryfoundation/corapi.html
I also suggest you read **The Snakebite Letters ** by Peter Kreeft (trinstore.com/ecom_2/item_view.cfm?inventoryid=162)
The Snakebite Letters, written in the style of C S Lewis, is a modern, Catholic version of The Screwtape Letters. The trainee demon Braintwister is assigned, by his ‘uncle’ Snakebite, to work at getting a recent convert to abandon the Catholic Church.
When Fr John Corapi had abandoned the Church and its teachings, and was a homeless person with too much pride to go home, his mother somehow persuaded him to say ONE Hail Mary every day.
One Hail Mary eventually became a daily Rosary, which eventually led him not only back to the Church but also to the priesthood.
Have you heard Fr Corapi speak? You can get a free copy of his story here catholicity.com/maryfoundation/corapi.html
I also suggest you read **The Snakebite Letters ** by Peter Kreeft (trinstore.com/ecom_2/item_view.cfm?inventoryid=162)
The Snakebite Letters, written in the style of C S Lewis, is a modern, Catholic version of The Screwtape Letters. The trainee demon Braintwister is assigned, by his ‘uncle’ Snakebite, to work at getting a recent convert to abandon the Catholic Church.
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richbansha
Guest
Hi GoGo…
If I may butt in, I think you are doing just fine. Rules are one thing, but there is still such a thing as being honestly mistaken. God has always made allowances for that.
Do you really think of yourself as, shall we say, merde? Well when Jesus was shown someone who also felt that way, he did not condemn her. He said, “Go and sin no more.” He says the very same thing to you. Do it and be happy for the rest of your life. Remember, you are a baptized daughter of the Living God. It is absolutely impossible for you to be inferior to anyone or anything. There just is no logic in how you feel about yourself.
Nothing wrong with meditating. I do it myself daily. Forget the Devil. He can’t take hold of your heart while Jesus lives there.
I once thought as you do. When God told me to go and sin no more, I did it – with a few lapses of course. Now for me, there is no way back to where I was. I am so content that I do not need heaven as an incentive. I am satisfied with even the earthy life that God has given me. I pray the same for you. When we get to heaven, let’s compare notes over dinner and drinks.
If I may butt in, I think you are doing just fine. Rules are one thing, but there is still such a thing as being honestly mistaken. God has always made allowances for that.
Do you really think of yourself as, shall we say, merde? Well when Jesus was shown someone who also felt that way, he did not condemn her. He said, “Go and sin no more.” He says the very same thing to you. Do it and be happy for the rest of your life. Remember, you are a baptized daughter of the Living God. It is absolutely impossible for you to be inferior to anyone or anything. There just is no logic in how you feel about yourself.
Nothing wrong with meditating. I do it myself daily. Forget the Devil. He can’t take hold of your heart while Jesus lives there.
I once thought as you do. When God told me to go and sin no more, I did it – with a few lapses of course. Now for me, there is no way back to where I was. I am so content that I do not need heaven as an incentive. I am satisfied with even the earthy life that God has given me. I pray the same for you. When we get to heaven, let’s compare notes over dinner and drinks.
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gardenswithkids
Guest
I’m sorry if my earlier post offered you no comfort.
gogogirl:
Our prayers can certainly be ways to express our individuality with God. But our prayers are also one way we express our unity. These things aren’t exclusive. We are all unique people created by a loving God, and we come together at Mass (and at other times) to journey together towards Him. We’re not here to judge each other; we are here to love and help each other. Forgive us if we didn’t do that in the manner you needed.
I went through a period of time after I returned to the Church where I too thought I was praying “wrong”. While there are many very beautiful formal prayers, simply talking with God or meditating on Him is perfectly fine. Now I think if I limit myself to just formal prayer it’s hard to grow my personal relationship with God. Not all my prayers begin with the sign of the cross either.
Our prayers can certainly be ways to express our individuality with God. But our prayers are also one way we express our unity. These things aren’t exclusive. We are all unique people created by a loving God, and we come together at Mass (and at other times) to journey together towards Him. We’re not here to judge each other; we are here to love and help each other. Forgive us if we didn’t do that in the manner you needed.
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montanaman
Guest
I’m just going to go ahead and say it, y’all–I think we’re talking to ParisBlues.** If I’m wrong**, then it’s an amazing coincidence that a recent convert shows up, writes with the same tone as Paris, talks about leaving the Church, and runs when one person out of fifty is critical with her–four days after the same thing happened with Paris. If I AM wrong, then GoGo, I suggest you browse back a page or two and check out a thread called something like “I left the Church,” written by a girl in your exact same situation. There’s a TON of good advice there.
If I’m right, Paris, then I think I’ve identified one major problem you have, and one that I share–you can’t take criticism, helpful or otherwise. It’s all or nothing with you–pure saint or all sinner. As one who’s been there, I suggest you seriously consider all the advice you’re getting. Coming back under a different name actually hurts your credibility, and I think it proves you’re not interested in help, but rather attention. If you’re still actually interested in help, support, advice, etc., then why make everyone start all over for this “different” Paris?
I hope I’m wrong about this, and if I am, GoGo, I apologize for the threadjack. There are a lot of good, sincere people here, but remember this is a site mainly for learning the defense of the faith. You’re probably going to run into a lot of people (like me) who want to explain things rather than “merely” offer comfort.
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gogogirl
Guest
Thank you for this wonderful suggestion. You are absolutely correct. I am full of anger. I will try to find quotes to back up what I have said. Maybe you will understand my perspective a little more and will see why I have no choice but to leave the church.
Are you comparing me to a prideful dope addict? I came here for advice, not to be accused of this.
I am appalled that you would even insinuate that I am looking for some kind of magical elixer. I have a problem with that on so many levels. I never claimed that I was the only one with this problem. I am not sure how you ever got that out of anything that I posted. I am sure a lot of people share my frustrations. If this were not the case, then why are there so many cafeteria Catholics.
The reason was purely practical. Apparently, I am too stupid to read or think for myself. Ooops, I guess I am supposed to blindly accept what the church says without trying to fully think it through and understand it.
Now I am self absorbed?
Eileen T:
Now I am not praying? I guess if I prayed the proper Catholic way, then I would not be having any problems. I definitely pray. Prayer is what brought me to this board and to seek advice. I could have easily walked away without so much as a word.
Let’s see, I apparently don’t know the proper version of Christianity according to what this poster said…Oh wait, it appears that you said that I don’t have the right version, ooops err the version of Christianity that you have been exposed to.
Please tell me where I said that I know better than God. I never said that. I did state that I feel like I am going to go straight to hell. I never said that I was certain. I also said that it seems like all the rules and regulations get in the way of true spirituality and was wondering how to excercise that individuality within in the confines of the Catholic Church. I never pretended to be anything but a sinner who is trying to come to terms with the teachings of the church. When you feel duped, don’t you get a little angry? I have repeatedly stated that I felt duped by the Church.
cont…
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gogogirl
Guest
I couldn’t agree more that Mary is a great wonderful person that was humble and had humility. To look to her as an example, makes me feel even more inferior and magnifies my inability to come to terms with the troubles that I am having with converting to Catholocism. If a kid has a problem, do you tell them to look at the star student so that you can rub it in that he is not very good. Some people were blessed with talents and the ability to just blindly accept whatever is given to them. Well, I haven’t been blessed with the ability to internalize the teachings of the church on the level that is required of me.
I think I am going to stop here. I appreciate all of you who gave me nonjudgemental and helpful advice. I appreciate all of your prayers but I just don’t see how I can reconcile myself with the church at this time. It is evident based on what you all have shared with me that I am unable to be a proper Catholic. I cannot reconcile to give my free will over to a church, nor can I accept being a cafeteria Catholic. I know that my soul is in grave danger but that is something that I will have to work out with God.
Peace be with you all!!!
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montanaman
Guest
(Edited for charity.) GoGo, the only thing evident here is that you’ve made up your mind and didn’t find enough people to affirm your decision. You’ve clearly had a conversation with us in your head, not in reality.
As your mom says, get over yourself.
As your mom says, get over yourself.
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mlchance
Guest
Certainly sound that way to me. Everything you write is about you. Poor, horrible you. Check your thread’s title. That’s about you as well.
Guess what? Being a Christian isn’t about you (or me). It’s about doing the will of Christ. It’s about dying to the self to be reborn as a child of God.
Stop whining and start doing. Where action leads, attitude soon follows.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Redbandito
Guest
Gogo, God is LOVE! Everything God does comes from who God is. Human beings are not love. We are created to love, but love is a virtue. All virtue comes first from grace and second from practice. The “rules and regulations” you speak of, for the most part, are teaching us how to love perfectly. If we already loved perfectly, as God does, we wouldn’t need rules. We would do them naturally. For instance, if I loved perfectly, I wouldn’t need to be told that lust or adultery are sins. I would already respect each individual as children of God, and lust or adultery while still wrong, would not need to be spoken. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I do have temptation. I do lust. Thus, I must learn another part of love, humility and repentance. I think you are framing this the wrong way. God did not give us a bunch of arbitrary rules to be a kill joy. God gave us the blue print to love as He does. Of course we are going to fail to live up to this perfectly! We are not Him. What God wants from us is our continued effort at obedience and our constant turning to Him for the strength to do this. And of course when we inevitably fail at some point, He wants us to turn and ask for mercy and forgiveness. Other than the fact that He, unlike others, always forgives a truly repentant heart, how is this different from any earthly relationship you have faced?
Furthermore, I would not look at confession as a place where I can go to void out all of my sins. This is just the wrong way of looking at it. Confession is a sacrament. Sacraments provide grace. I go to confession every week or two, not because I necessarily need to confess mortal sins all the time, but rather because I feel a huge difference in my relationship with God afterward. I feel like I am on the same page with Him again. I feel His grace and His mercy abounding. I don’t go there simply to go through the motions. I truly intend to amend my life. Now, do I fail with the same things repeatedly? Of course! At least with some. However, I can’t give up hope. This is called despair, and it is a GRAVE sin. We must continue to trust in God’s grace and never lose hope. Remember in the Act of Contrition it states at the end, “I firmly intend, with the help of your grace, to confess all my sins, to do my penance, and to AMEND MY LIFE”. Confession is not, “I got drunk this weekend, so I better go to confession, but I intend to go get drunk next weekend”. That’s not true repentance. In the repentant, there must be a desire to change from your old ways. I hope this helps a little.
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gogogirl
Guest
Frankly, I find this very offensive. I have tried to explain myself as much as possible. I openly admit that I am angry. I came here seeking advice, comfort, and anything else you have to offer. I was seriously burned by the priest while going through RCIA. The learning that I did prior to beginning RCIA is the only thing keeping me from walking away. Many people would recommend that I seek another priest but we live in a rural area where that is not easily possible. My first confession went something like this:
I was a little nervous. After all, I had 29 years worth of sins to confess. I asked the priest where I should begin and was asked if I wanted him to make it easy. I said sure, I guess. Then he proceeded to absolve me without ever hearing me say a word about my actual sins. I tried to go to confession pretty regularly after I first joined but it almost seemed as though it was a joke. I try pretty hard to stay away from the mortal sins so I can avoid confession. If I do not have a pure heart, I won’t even go to communion. I am not an all or nothing. I am just having a real difficulty with this aspect of the church. I like things to be concrete and the more I hear, the more slippery and confusing things get. I apologize for waisting your time. I have not read the thread on, “I left the church”. I did not think it would be pertinent to me when browsing threads. If I had left the church, I certainly wouldn’t come here to have somebody try to convince me otherwise. If I merely wanted attention, then I would go join the real world and find the company of persons that I can actually touch, feel, and see. This is not something that I am very comfortable talking about because I want my family to be united.
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