Is there any room for individuality?

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I don’t know what you found offensive about that. Either you’re Paris or you’re not. If you’re not, then most of that didn’t apply to you. What did apply was an apology for making a mistake and a suggestion to check out another thread that you might find helpful.

Believe me, we all sympathize here, but after having catered to every transient emotion by a little girl named Paris Blues, only to have it thrown in our faces with “I left the Church” a mere MONTH after joining, you have to understand that some of us aren’t in a real “comforting” mood. So when you jump to the conclusion that we’re “all” coming down on you or something, that sounds exactly like Paris.

Quit being so touchy, and realize that Catholics are people. We’re not all holy clones. And when someone says something you might not want to hear, either ingore it or address why its wrong but don’t assume that people calling you names or whatever.
 
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gogogirl:
I was a little nervous. After all, I had 29 years worth of sins to confess. I asked the priest where I should begin and was asked if I wanted him to make it easy. I said sure, I guess. Then he proceeded to absolve me without ever hearing me say a word about my actual sins. I tried to go to confession pretty regularly after I first joined but it almost seemed as though it was a joke. I try pretty hard to stay away from the mortal sins so I can avoid confession. If I do not have a pure heart, I won’t even go to communion. I am not an all or nothing. I am just having a real difficulty with this aspect of the church. I like things to be concrete and the more I hear, the more slippery and confusing things get. I apologize for waisting your time. I have not read the thread on, “I left the church”. I did not think it would be pertinent to me when browsing threads. If I had left the church, I certainly wouldn’t come here to have somebody try to convince me otherwise. If I merely wanted attention, then I would go join the real world and find the company of persons that I can actually touch, feel, and see. This is not something that I am very comfortable talking about because I want my family to be united.
Gogo, there was a heretical group around the 4th or 5th century, and I believe they were called either the Montanists or the Donatists. I always get those confused. Anyway, they believed that in order for the priest to consecrate, he had to be holy himself. The Church, of course, rejected this notion, stating that the grace in the sacraments came, not from the priest, but from God Himself. In the same way, though a priest may hear a “lousy” confession, God is pleased that you made the attempt to seek forgiveness. The priest has received Apostolic authority that “whose sins you forgive, are forgiven, and whose sins you retain, are retained” (John 20:23). Thus, whether the priest is hearing your confession in the way you would like, or not, as long as you come with a truly repentant heart, and he continues the correct form of the sacrament, than the goal that you wished to accomplish was indeed accomplished. Once forgiven by God, we must then forgive ourselves.
 
Once forgiven by God, we must then forgive ourselves.
Which of course is one of the hardest things in the world, surprisingly enough. I’ve learned to do it, but occasionally, I let myself beat up myself for old times’ sake. Keeps me focused.

And no, I don’t mean literally…
 
If having a “pure heart” were a requirement for receiving communion, then no one would be standing in line.

Do you think it is possible you are applying more stringent standards to the sacraments than the Church does?
For ex: you feel you need to remember every sin - and if you forget to mention it - it isn’t forgiven?
But that isn’t true. The Church doesn’t teach this. So it is a matter of perception. All the Church requires is that you do your best to share your sins. When you are absolved - you are absolved. That’s it. If something pops up…“Oh I forgot to confess this one!” - It’s ok - it’s been forgiven.

Another ex:…you feel you need a pure heart in order to receive?
Certainly a pure heart is an excellent goal - don’t get me wrong, and maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean by this…but the Church doesn’t teach that you have to be perfect in order to receive.
We aren’t to receive when we’ve committed mortal sins (and my fanny has spent time in the pew over this one) But I think it is possible too much self doubt can stand in the way of receiving great blessings from the eucharist.
 
Did anyone actually answer your question, “Is there any room for individuality?”

Some points to consider:

1.If you read the posts, GoGo, you will see a lot of individuality!
  1. You are free to pray in your heart and soul, to glorify God, to thank Him for the gift of Jesus and to ask the Holy Spirit to fill you with praise and thanks. At Mass we each receive the Body and Blood of Christ, at confession we each receive absolution, at ALL the sacrements, we are individually receiving grace.
3.Remember that you are a daughter of God, He is with you now and will be with you always. You are free to accept His love and guidance - He has given you free will, along with all that you are, all that you will always be and have always been. You make individual choices - they are not made by anyone but you.

4.The Church allows for individuality - look at the different orders - look at the differences between two very holy men - JPII and Benedict XVI.

Finally, EVERY one of us has doubts, if we didn’t have doubt there would be no need for faith.
 
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gogogirl:
Let’s see, I apparently don’t know the proper version of Christianity according to what this poster said…Oh wait, it appears that you said that I don’t have the right version, ooops err the version of Christianity that you have been exposed to.

Please tell me where I said that I know better than God. I never said that. I did state that I feel like I am going to go straight to hell. I never said that I was certain. I also said that it seems like all the rules and regulations get in the way of true spirituality and was wondering how to excercise that individuality within in the confines of the Catholic Church. I never pretended to be anything but a sinner who is trying to come to terms with the teachings of the church. When you feel duped, don’t you get a little angry? I have repeatedly stated that I felt duped by the Church.

cont…
Please do work on your anger!

I was merely trying to point out how your “feelings” about being a a piece of **** were contrary to the gospel message that calls us children of God. I made no qualifications regarding your “version” of Christianity. Be very careful in presuming that someone is judging you, because in the process you are making a judgment about them, too!

And to be clear. . .You never said verbatim that you “know better than God.” However, your insistence that you are a “worthless piece of ****” indicated to me that perhaps you are giving more weight to what you think about yourself over what God says about you.

“The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” Romans 8:16
 
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montanaman:
I don’t know what you found offensive about that. Either you’re Paris or you’re not. If you’re not, then most of that didn’t apply to you. What did apply was an apology for making a mistake and a suggestion to check out another thread that you might find helpful.

Believe me, we all sympathize here, but after having catered to every transient emotion by a little girl named Paris Blues, only to have it thrown in our faces with “I left the Church” a mere MONTH after joining, you have to understand that some of us aren’t in a real “comforting” mood. So when you jump to the conclusion that we’re “all” coming down on you or something, that sounds exactly like Paris.

Quit being so touchy, and realize that Catholics are people. We’re not all holy clones. And when someone says something you might not want to hear, either ingore it or address why its wrong but don’t assume that people calling you names or whatever.
I’ve lurked on this board for quite some time and I have yet to come across a stranger thread. GoGo “Paris” is either a troll looking to set up Protestant slavation arguments or gets her kicks from wasting others’ time. It’s nice to see folks attempting to help her, but her statements lack any sort of clarity or purpose and she clearly dodges almost every question asked of her “issues” with converting.

Living a Catholic life isn’t much harder than being a U.S. citizen, but the stakes are much higher. Start realizing what you can do for the Church, the poor, and those in despair. Stop thinking about yourself, and the minutia of the “rules”. Love God and your neighbor with all your heart and things will be fine.
 
Easy there Montanaman. She’s had a hard time.

I can understand your frustration. There are many, many times when I have sinned and feel like God couldn’t possibly forgive me. I get caught up in the seriousness and frequency of my sins and loose track of the goal… God Himself.

The things that you are dealing with, Gogogirl, are things that every Catholic must deal with. I went eight months without receiving Communion once. It hurt to not receive our Lord. It hurt to feel as though the eyes of everyone in the congregation were on me, assessing the state of my soul (which is particularly difficult when you’re attending daily Mass 😦 ). It hurt to let go of my sins. I was scared to death of letting go.

I think it is important to remember that Confession is not about us. It’s not about the seriousness of our sins. It’s about going to God, our heavenly Father, our Lord, and asking forgiviness for having offended Him. We can’t say to God, “You can’t forgive me, my sins are too great!” He can, and does, forgive us. We in turn must let go of our crippling attachment to our own sins. If God has forgiven them, then what right have we to hold on to them?

For me, I think my unwillingness to let go of my sin (and the associated guilt, anger, and dispair) was due to the fact that I didn’t want to stop sinning. I want some of those things that are sinful… in some cases I would like *very much * to commit them again… but for God’s sake, and the sake of those I love. I feel as though I will have to give up these things completely if I let go of the guilt and pain… and that isn’t always an attractive proposition. If I say, “God, I give it all to you. I don’t want to sin, or think of sin. I want only to think of You.” I will never be able to hold on to those things again… and that’s scary when your so very attached to them.

I think this is especially true when there is natural good in a sin for us to be proud of. Yes, you heard me right… I said that I felt proud of my sins, knowing that they’re sins, and knowing that I’m sinful! :eek: … but it can be overcome.

The solution lies in trust. I haven’t come completely to terms with this yet myself. I’m trying very hard to trust that God will help me be good, and let Him help me.

So, you’re not alone. Don’t ever think that you are. I’ll be praying for you. I hope you’ll pray for me.

As for meditation, it is a tool that can be very helpful. Many of the saints meditated deeply. What helps me the most is meditating on Christ’s Passion… thinking of the love that God must have for me, that He would humble Himself, become man, suffer and die… infinite love… imagine that!

As for leaving the Church… don’t do it! You need the graces God has made accessable to us through her… we all do. Catholicism is not about feeling at home, or justified, or holy. Catholicism is about getting to heaven, striving our best to purify ourselves in order to be ultimately united with God forever, and bringing others with us.

I hope that you will get through this rough time in your life. Again, I will pray for you.

God bless,

Agricola
 
Gogo, If you’d be a little more specific about what is bothering you, maybe we could be more helpful. After all, it’s an online forum - we don’t know who you really are, so anything you say to us is private in that sense.
When I went to my first confession (with 23 years of pagan living to confess), I got the feeling the priest didn’t consider the things I knew darn well were mortal sins (fornication, stealing, witchcraft etc.) were wrong at all. It doesn’t matter, though, what the priest thinks - the sacrament is still valid. When I have gone to confession with only venial sins to confess (yelled at my husband, spent too much time on the computer) he seemed to think I was crazy and over-scrupulous - so now I don’t go unless I think I may have commited a mortal sin. It seems to me that a lot of priests nowadays are uncomfortable with confession and the concept of sin in general. However, I think someone already mentioned that venial sins are forgiven during the Mass. If you are beating yourself up over venial sins, one the one hand it is a good thing to see them for sins and want to eliminate them from your life, but on the other hand, beating yourself up is not productive. Avoiding the near occasion of sin, praying more, going to Mass more frequently - these are the things that help. Immerse yourself in the presence of God, and he will, over time, help you to overcome these sins. Do not reject God’s forgiveness; remember the prodigal son. Your repentance and desire to avoid sin please God very much.
 
I am amazed at the response that this thread has gotten. The first thing that I want to say is that I too am a recent convert but have not had the experience that gogo apparently has. One of the things that stuck out with her post is that she says she feels duped and coerced. My priest made sure that we were all joining the Church of our own free will. We were doing it because we wanted to be part of the Church and not because someone was making us. It seems that maybe her husband forced her to do it and now she is regretting it. Did you pick up on the fact that she refers to it as a cult and that she says she wants family unity? I thought an apologist was supposed to defend the faith and help people become closer to God. It appears there has been a lot of accusations and assumptions on both sides. We are not questioning our faith or our church so it is difficult for us to understand where gogo is coming from. I think she may need to step back from the Church and return ONLY if she is doing it because she wants to and not because she feels coerced by the parish or her family. If someone is in the pits of despair, they don’t always know how to verbalize what they are feeling.

If she is a troll as someone suggested, I am sure that we will be getting a flaming response. If she is truly a tormented soul, then who knows what kind of an impact we have had on her future spiritual endeavors. It might be a good idea if we remember to love our neighbors as ourselves even if they are just trying to get attention. We do not know her situation. Hopefully, we have not driven a poor tormented soul away from the one true Church.

God Bless You!!!
 
Greetings GoGoGirl.
I am a recent convert but I am considering leaving the faith already.
Do you want to let the devil win over you? By leaving the Church, you would be playing right into his hands. There’s no end to the wickedness and snares of the devil.
I have pretty much decided that I am going straight to hell because I don’t go to confession
often enough.
Going to hell is not for you to decide unless of course you want to
go!
I have read that I shouldn’t do anything in a church of another faith.
The Catholic Church teaches that she is the one true church. If you think about it, why would God create several conflicting faiths with the resulting fighting that follows. All other faiths in my opinion are actually anti-christian even if it’s not overt.
I have read time and time again, that I should pray and offer everything up to God.
It is always a good idea to offer up our suffering for the salvation
of others so that we may share in Christ’s redemptive sacrifice.
I guess I am just really confused and feel like I have been duped.
Could be Satan at work. Don’t listen to him and don’t despair. We all have a cross to bear.
My soul is very tarnished and no amount of confession is going to clean it
You need to trust in God’s infinite Mercy. Priests have the power to forgive sins because Jesus ordained it so and by the merits
gained in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (This is the blood of the new and ever-lasting covenant which will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven).
I just wonder why I have to go to Mass, go to confession, do x, y, and z in order to cleanse my soul.
The whole point of mass is that’s it is the sacrifice and offering of Jesus’s Body and Blood to His Father to plead for His forgiveness
and Mercy. The alternative is to face the Father’s Justice instead of His Mercy.
And don’t forget that mass and confession give us graces to avoid sin and become closer to God.

Please don’t despair. We all go through periods when it all
seems pointless and hopeless. Offer it up and think of the great
reward at the end of this life.

God bless,
Noel.
 
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ConcernCatholic:
I am amazed at the response that this thread has gotten. The first thing that I want to say is that I too am a recent convert but have not had the experience that gogo apparently has. One of the things that stuck out with her post is that she says she feels duped and coerced. My priest made sure that we were all joining the Church of our own free will. We were doing it because we wanted to be part of the Church and not because someone was making us. It seems that maybe her husband forced her to do it and now she is regretting it. Did you pick up on the fact that she refers to it as a cult and that she says she wants family unity? I thought an apologist was supposed to defend the faith and help people become closer to God. It appears there has been a lot of accusations and assumptions on both sides. We are not questioning our faith or our church so it is difficult for us to understand where gogo is coming from. I think she may need to step back from the Church and return ONLY if she is doing it because she wants to and not because she feels coerced by the parish or her family. If someone is in the pits of despair, they don’t always know how to verbalize what they are feeling.

If she is a troll as someone suggested, I am sure that we will be getting a flaming response. If she is truly a tormented soul, then who knows what kind of an impact we have had on her future spiritual endeavors. It might be a good idea if we remember to love our neighbors as ourselves even if they are just trying to get attention. We do not know her situation. Hopefully, we have not driven a poor tormented soul away from the one true Church.

God Bless You!!!
I think the overwhelming response has been one of charity and concern. I’ll freely admit that my hard edge has been on display here, but I’m not entirely convinced that we’re not dealing with Paris under false pretenses. If I’m wrong, (and I hope I am), I’ll apologize. (In fact, I already did). Clearly, as someone who has experienced the exact same struggle, I should be very open to helping out however I can.

However, I’m appalled at the knee-jerk response to criticism which, (maybe I’m so warped I can’t see clearly) I don’t think has been uncharitable. This is true for this entire site–whenever someone pushes slightly too hard, they are chastised by everyone else. I think charity should be the name of the game here, but sometimes I think people are overly-sensitive to “tough love.” Has this thread been an example of tough love? I don’t think so, because I think the overwhelming response has been one of honest concern. And GoGo, while I believe is honestly suffering either spiritual dryness, or scrupulosity, or both, has been quick to “lash out” at people when they question her situation. (Just like Paris.)

For the record, I am honestly, sincerely sorry if I’ve been too rough and I’ve read the situation wrong, and this is a totally different person. But whether we’re talking to Paris or somebody new, some of the best advice I ever got (while going through a monumental spiritual battle at Franciscan U) was to “grow up.” It was hard to hear, and it frustrated me, but it set me on the right path. That, and many friends and relatives who ALSO showed me Christian love.

Seriously, my heart goes out to the OP because I’ve been there and it’s a very dark place. But it takes more than the heart to get out of it.
 
I’m not sure if my posts qualify as being too harsh. I just think we can’t get past certain issues (confession, sin…etc,) if the op is carrying around so much anger.
When there is already anger and hostility - the rest of the conversation is useless.
I can’t tell if the main issue is really the sacraments - or if it is perceived mistreatment by people. As we can see on this board there is a tendency to twist what others say into something they never intended.

If we look at the title of this thread, the original post, and a few of the other posts the insinuation is that we catholics are not allowing ourselves to be individuals. That we are blindly following a set of rules without thinking for ourselves.

I have a feeling the op won’t be satisfied until someone agrees with her on this.
 
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Lorarose:
I’m not sure if my posts qualify as being too harsh. I just think we can’t get past certain issues (confession, sin…etc,) if the op is carrying around so much anger.
When there is already anger and hostility - the rest of the conversation is useless.
I can’t tell if the main issue is really the sacraments - or if it is perceived mistreatment by people. As we can see on this board there is a tendency to twist what others say into something they never intended.

If we look at the title of this thread, the original post, and a few of the other posts the insinuation is that we catholics are not allowing ourselves to be individuals. That we are blindly following a set of rules without thinking for ourselves.

I have a feeling the op won’t be satisfied until someone agrees with her on this.
I don’t want anyone to agree with me. I want to understand why this is not the case.

The main issue is not the sacraments. I agree completely with the sacraments and even the big issues. In my opinion, the Catholic Church just follows the laws of nature in regards to most of its teachings. They are kind of like common sense. The problem I have is with all of the nitpicky little rules. I used to read my horoscope just for the fun of it. I do not put stock in stuff like that but it is fun to get a good laugh now and then. Now, I don’t feel like I can do that in good conscience because of what the Catechism says.

Somebody else that posted made me realize that part of my other problem is the fact that I feel that I was coerced into joining the church. My husband would not let me be part of his prayer life because I was not Catholic. I would ask him questions and he would just refer me to a book. My MIL is supposedly a devout Catholic but she is trying to push me into using ABC. I felt like I had to join the church to win the approval and openness of my spouse. There is no way that I can ever leave the church openly because if I do, that will create a giant rift in my marriage. If I leave, it will be in my heart.

I do tend to get a bit defensive because I am so angry about the whole situation. I tend to be a perfectionist and want to make sure I get it right. When I don’t get it right, I do get flustered and the more I perceive that people are attacking me, the angrier I get. I posted here hoping to get some answers and clarification because I had a poor experience with RCIA and our parish priest.
 
GoGo,

I just wanted to apologize. I misread the situation and made some leaps of logic (or illogic). I’m sorry.

Sometimes, when people go through these struggles, they come out a little wiser, but a little cynical. I fall into that category. I don’t have all the answers (obviously) but after a while I got sick of fighting myself over them. You’re right, there’s a lot nitpicky little details. Trying to somehow organize all of them in your head will drive any normal person insane. I got sick of that, and eventually just “gave up” and gave in. It comes down to a choice, ultimately, of “giving in” or quitting entirely, and if you believe in your mind AND your heart that the Church is probably right, there really seems to be no other place to go. Eventually, however, joy enters into the equation. Just not on any particularly convenient schedule, apparently.

Anyway, I’m sorry for judging you harshly. As always, I’m an idiot.

MM
 
I don’t want anyone to agree with me. I want to understand why this is not the case.
Certainly you must have had enough experience with catholics to see they are not all the same?
Look at the saints - they are definitely quite a varied group.
I’m not sure what your impression is …it sounds like you think we’re brainwashed maybe?
I can assure you - I am only a catholic because I put a great deal of thought into it. I examined the teachings and found them to be true. It is the impression I get from most of the catholics here on the forum - even though everyone here brings their own individual flavor to it.
The problem I have is with all of the nitpicky little rules. I used to read my horoscope just for the fun of it. I do not put stock in stuff like that but it is fun to get a good laugh now and then. Now, I don’t feel like I can do that in good conscience because of what the Catechism says.
I’m not sure what the Catechism says about this. To read a horoscope for a laugh does not sound like a big deal to me.
Somebody else that posted made me realize that part of my other problem is the fact that I feel that I was coerced into joining the church.
Never a good thing. You shouldn’t join until you feel ready.
My husband joined RCIA - became disillusioned and quit.
I believe it was 2 or 3 years later he rejoined.
My husband would not let me be part of his prayer life because I was not Catholic
Very sad. They’re isn’t any reason catholics and non-catholics shouldn’t pray together -especially when they are married.
This is his quirk - it isn’t something that came from the Church.
Sometimes those close to us can drive us crazy and all we can do is pray for them, and trust the Holy Spirit will guide the situation.
My MIL is supposedly a devout Catholic but she is trying to push me into using ABC.
My own catholic mother does the same. She thinks she is helping me. She worries I won’t be able to handle the pressure and the cost of a big family. Sometimes I think she gets embarrassed to tell her friends about my pregnancies.
But that is her. I tell her what I think and why - and we agree to disagree.
Again…this is your MIL’s quirk. She doesn’t represent all catholics or the Church on this one.
I felt like I had to join the church to win the approval and openness of my spouse. There is no way that I can ever leave the church openly because if I do, that will create a giant rift in my marriage. If I leave, it will be in my heart.
This another situation entirely.
Have you tried telling him exactly how you feel?
Maybe he’s not aware there is a problem?
I posted here hoping to get some answers and clarification because I had a poor experience with RCIA and our parish priest.
Some people here mentioned scrupulosity…I don’t know that applies to you or not.
If you go to newadvent.org and type “scrupulosity” into the search engine you’ll get info you might find helpful.

The more you share about your marital situation - the more sense this all makes.
If you have already discussed this with your husband and that has not helped, it may be a situation where you need counseling either from a priest you both trust - or from a professional counselor. (some priests and religious are trained in counseling as well )
I don’t know if there is a correct “catholic” response that would apply here, as this involves a unique relationship between a husband and wife.
 
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gogogirl:
I fail to see how recognizing that I am a worthless piece of **** is related to pride.
And yet God became man and suffered and died on the cross for you. Would He have done that if you were really worthless? Are you really a better judge of yourself than God is? (that’s where the pride comes in, BTW)

Perhaps you need to have a more childlike faith. Don’t brood, and when you stumble, say you’re sorry (and mean it) through Confession, and then trust in your Father. Cling to God like a child. Cling to Him through prayer and the Mass and the sacraments and faith acted out in love. God your Father will give you whatever you need. Wrap yourself in His arms.

God’s plan of salvation is not marginal. It is not close to impossible. He offers grace enough for every single person to be saved. It is not nearly so hard as you think, even though God asks everything of you. If that sounds contradictory, it is only because you do not yet see that for everything God asks of you, He gives you vastly more back. God’s in charge, not you. Live as He desires you to live (the Church, Scripture, the lives and writings of the saints – all tell you how), and let Him do the hard stuff.

Oh, BTW, I don’t see anything wrong with reading your horoscope for giggles, any more than breaking a wishbone, or wishing on birthday candles or reading the fortune in a fortune cookie for giggles.
 
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gogogirl:
I usually feel worse after confession because I always leave things out. Should I write down all of my transgressions on a piece of paper so as to not forget them?
Yes. Then destroy the paper afterwards.
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gogogirl:
I don’t know how many times I have had people tell me that I have received a watered down version of the teachings. If what I am getting is watered down, then I would hate to see what full strength looks like.
This may explain your anger! What you thought you joined you are now being told is not up to par. You were not prepared for the actual requirements because everyone made it seem like it would be no sweat. But now you feel as if you’ve been given the bait-and-switch!

I have some sympathy for you.

But things are not reversible. You have the mark of baptism, and that cannot ever be removed. You are now a soldier in the Church Militant. Don’t desert, though! We have a great high God Who enables us to do what pleases Him, if only we will.

If you feel unable and unwilling to live up to this new unexpected standard, I understand. But look at the events in the world around us. Consider that you could die in a car crash tomorrow. Regardless of whether you got duped into a harder obligation or not, the fact remains that we must put forth effort to overcome ourselves and obtain the crown of victory! I would encourage you to be as a sick person who is unable to function up to par, but would like to. Our own will leads to sickness of spirit, but dying to our will in order to do God’s Will strengthens us for eternity. So I encourage you to seek to do His Will: obedience in good faith.

“Joy to the World! The Lord is come. … Let every heart prepare Him room!”

hurst
 
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BlindSheep:
Originally Posted by gogogirl
I have read that I shouldn’t do anything in a church of another faith. I read that we should not be curious about other religions or faiths.
This jumped out at me. I don’t know everything there is to know about the Church by any means, but this sounds incorrect. As far as I know, these are not sins (if I’m wrong, someone correct me!)
It is true that we must not participate in the religious services of other faiths.

It is true we should not be “curious” about other faiths. However, it is appropriate to be informed of what others believe in order that we may understand them and relate with them compassionately. But we must already be firmly rooted in our own faith.

hurst
 
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