Is there any way to stop a devout Catholic couple from getting divorced?

[john1513]

I have two dear friends who have been married for decades, kids are grown, they have always been heavily involved in the parish and specifically with retreats, and one spouse has left the other and filed for divorce. The reasons given were that the other spouse mishandled money which seems like a lie from other sources. The spouse being left is devastated and bewildered and wants to reconcile at all costs.

I don’t know if the details matter, but the big picture is here are two Catholics who are very close to the “Church” (and by “Church” I mean our particular parish) but one seems completely oblivious to the obligations of their sacrament.

They continue to be heavily involved in the parish and staffing retreats a year after one spouse left the other.

Is there any reasoning with such an individual? Is it possible for their understanding of the sanctity of marriage to be elevated in a situation like this, with the possible result of reconciling?

So far the response from mutual friends is the spouse has “made up their mind”. I have not heard of a single attempt to remind this person of the sanctity of their marriage let alone its permanence. Maybe they know and don’t care. I’m very uncomfortable that other devout Catholics seem to easily and mindlessly accept a tragedy like this while not doing anything to stop it, sometimes with the fear of appearing “judgmental” or “hurting someone’s feelings”. I have legitimate concerns that they are being influenced towards divorce by parishioners. If we are a caring parish, this is the opposite of caring.

 

[EasterJoy]

I presume you mean that the reason “mishandling money” seems like a lie from other sources. That may not be true. It may be that the spouse filing for divorce has a legitimate reason to separate with the bond remaining and specifically need to make the legal move to preserve whatever sustenance they have in old age from being dissipated by a spouse who cannot be trusted. I have known a couple that kept up a good front and was very active, but unfortunately the husband was not just a lector but also both a spendthrift and a philanderer. People on the outside were unhappy to hear about the divorce, but the children who were in the home told another story about how things were in their home between their parents. In another case, a spouse was bewildered to find that after ultimatuum after ultimatuum her husband finally carried through with his promise that he would file for divorce if she could not mend behaviors that kept him from living in any kind of peace. Yes, many spouses are blind-sided by a divorce filings. This is true. Others, however, feel they need to say they are in order to keep up appearances. Both of these happen.

I think you may be selling these mutual friends short. They have told you that the spouse who has filed for divorce has their mind made up. That implies that inquiries have been made and a conclusion reached.

If you feel you needed to get to the bottom of this, however–you do know these mutual acquaintances and I do not!–I’d have a heart-to-heart talk with one of these mutual friends who has spoken to the spouse whose mind cannot be changed. It would not do to presume you are the only one who cares and by that presumption go in and do damage that could have been avoided. You need to know what has been tried, what is known, what kind of tactic is likely to make matters worse. Don’t rush in where angels fear to tread, not even on behalf of a friend. You may hurt a friend and ruin a friendship with a tactic that prudent care could have told you would not work.

 

[1ke]

Is there any way to stop a devout Catholic couple from getting divorced?

No.

I have two dear friends who have been married for decades, kids are grown, they have always been heavily involved in the parish and specifically with retreats,

Divorce is terrible, but it is not an impediment to being “heavily” involved in the parish, including in retreats.

…which seems like a lie from other sources…
…but one seems completely oblivious to the obligations of their sacrament…

You are not dealing in facts here. You are dealing in second hand information and speculation.

You don’t know the intimate details of their marriage, you don’t know facts, and you should not presume to know the mind of either party especially stating they are “oblivious” to their commitment and obligations. These are not facts, these are your assumptions and opinions.

Is there any reasoning with such an individual?

It is always possible, if one is a close personal friend, to talk with them about their situation if they are willing to and to encourage them to seek counseling and reconciliation.

But, step back off your high horse first-- you are again assuming the person is “un” reasonable and needs to be reasoned with. Perhaps they need to be listened to and supported instead.

Is it possible for their understanding of the sanctity of marriage to be elevated in a situation like this, with the possible result of reconciling?

You assume they lack an understanding of the sanctity of marriage. Assuming is not cool.

I have not heard of a single attempt to remind this person of the sanctity of their marriage let alone its permanence.

The fact you haven’t heard about it doesn’t mean there haven’t been any attempts.

If you are friends, and I mean good friends, then perhaps you will have an opportunity to discuss it with them-- in confidence.

Maybe they know and don’t care. I’m very uncomfortable that other devout Catholics seem to easily and mindlessly accept a tragedy like this while not doing anything to stop it, sometimes with the fear of appearing “judgmental” or “hurting someone’s feelings”. I have legitimate concerns that they are being influenced towards divorce by parishioners. If we are a caring parish, this is the opposite of caring.

And there you go assuming again-- assuming things about the couple AND your fellow parishioners.

 

[john1513]

I pray I am wrong about everything I wrote but it is based on feedback from the spouses’ grown children, mutual friends, the clergy, and one spouse. I keep hoping there’s more to the story that could help reconciliation but sadly every rock has turned up nothing. I plan on expressing my concern to the other spouse, I’m hoping more information comes out from our mutual friends but all I get are blank stares and the pervasive opinion that divorce is natural and acceptable.

Even if we assume the absolute worst of one spouse, how does that justify the other spouse abandoning their marriage when one spouse desperately wants to reconcile? How do we call ourselves Catholic while ignoring our own Catholic beliefs about marriage?

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Maybe they know and don’t care. I’m very uncomfortable that other devout Catholics seem to easily and mindlessly accept a tragedy like this while not doing anything to stop it, sometimes with the fear of appearing “judgmental” or “hurting someone’s feelings”. I have legitimate concerns that they are being influenced towards divorce by parishioners. If we are a caring parish, this is the opposite of caring.

Maybe they recognize that there’s nothing they can do. If one of the spouse is bound and determined to divorce, it’s unlikely that a random parishioner going, “Hey, you know you’re not supposed to do that, right?” is going to make much of a difference.

I mean, there’s nothing stopping you from tactfully trying to sway them in a particular direction, but at the end of the day it’s not your decision to make.

 

[john1513]

Maybe they recognize that there’s nothing they can do. If one of the spouse is bound and determined to divorce, it’s unlikely that a random parishioner going, “Hey, you know you’re not supposed to do that, right?” is going to make much of a difference.

How about a friend when it appears all their friends have either ignored their problem or jumped on board the divorce train without any restraint?

I mean, there’s nothing stopping you from tactfully trying to sway them in a particular direction, but at the end of the day it’s not your decision to make.

I wish Catholics applied the same zeal regarding communion in the hand or which direction a priest faces to actual problems like divorce.

 

[john1513]

The fact you haven’t heard about it doesn’t mean there haven’t been any attempts.

I found out about the situation late from one spouse. The response from their agnostic family has been: “Since the couple was so involved in the church, we were hoping their church friends could talk some sense into them about their marriage. But so far nothing. One parishioner has even encouraged the spouse to leave and let them live in their home. I thought Catholics cared about marriage?! What exactly do you do teach about marriage at church and on retreats where this couple is so heavily involved?!”

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

How about a friend when it appears all their friends have either ignored their problem or jumped on board the divorce train without any restraint?

I wish Catholics applied the same zeal regarding communion in the hand or which direction a priest faces to actual problems like divorce.

I’m not saying that friends can’t counsel and try to encourage counseling/reconciliation. But past that, what are you going to do? Put a gun to their head?

If I were you, and I were good friends with the couple in question, I’d invite the spouse who wants to divorce out to get a drink. Then I’d let them talk: don’t assume you know all the facts, and don’t go into lecture mode immediately. Let them vent for awhile. And then, tactfully, you can offer your (name removed by moderator)ut. Remind them of the sanctity of their marriage vows, and suggest that maybe the rift could be repaired through counseling.

If that fails, there’s nothing else you can do.

 

[EasterJoy]

How about a friend when it appears all their friends have either ignored their problem or jumped on board the divorce train without any restraint?

I wish Catholics applied the same zeal regarding communion in the hand or which direction a priest faces to actual problems like divorce.

Catholics have the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue. They do not have the right to put their noses into other people’s marriages, particularly not based on hearsay.

You’re assuming a lot by assuming that no one has stopped this filing from going forward because no one surrounding this couples cares about them or the sanctity of marriage as much as you do.

I found out about the situation late from one spouse. The response from their agnostic family has been: “Since the couple was so involved in the church, we were hoping their church friends could talk some sense into them about their marriage. But so far nothing. One parishioner has even encouraged the spouse to leave and let them live in their home. I thought Catholics cared about marriage?! What exactly do you do teach about marriage at church and on retreats where this couple is so heavily involved?!”

When have you ever heard of anyone, Catholic or not, hearing about someone’s marital troubles offering to* host them in their own home* so they could leave the conjugal life? That would be an extraordinary offer to make! Does that alone not tell you that there has to be more to this story than what you have heard?

Something is not adding up. Yes, it is possible the spouse filing for divorce has some burr under her saddle that does not amount to a reason excusing her from the common conjugal life, but it is possible that she absolutely does.

Don’t go rushing in as if you are the fire department and no one else in the world has the common sense to know what smoke smells like.

 

[john1513]

If I were you, and I were good friends with the couple in question, I’d invite the spouse who wants to divorce out to get a drink. Then I’d let them talk: don’t assume you know all the facts, and don’t go into lecture mode immediately. Let them vent for awhile. And then, tactfully, you can offer your (name removed by moderator)ut. Remind them of the sanctity of their marriage vows, and suggest that maybe the rift could be repaired through counseling.

If that fails, there’s nothing else you can do.

I like that approach. Based on the feedback I’ve received, and my experience with this divorce and others at my parish, no one dares to suggest that their course of action could be wrong. The protocol is to carry on with parish retreats and activities, spiritualizing life while allowing the most important relationships in our parish to decay. Our parish spends so much effort on these retreats to give people a spiritual experience but offers no teaching on marriage. We pat ourselves on the back for how spiritual we are while our marriages fail over and over again. I fear we have a sickness and part of it is rooted in my parish’s (maybe the Church in general) acceptance of the secular concept that marriage is a thing that naturally fails.

 

[Catholic1954]

I know you are concerned for your friends and mean well, but please stay out, way out, of it. No one knows what is really going on in the marriage and the last thing these folks need is someone from outside trying to interfere. People who are so involved and devoted to the Church know how serious divorce is and would not make such a decision lightly. Pray for them and the rest of the family, but there is nothing you should do stop or support it.

 

[john1513]

Catholics have the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue. They do not have the right to put their noses into other people’s marriages, particularly not based on hearsay.

If my spouse abandoned me, despite all my best efforts, I would hope our “Catholic friends” would be bold enough to try and help them see reason. I guess that’s too much to ask in a divorce culture.

When have you ever heard of anyone, Catholic or not, hearing about someone’s marital troubles offering to* host them in their own home* so they could leave the conjugal life?

I have personally seen that EXACT same situation TWICE before now at my parish. All from highly involved individuals in the parish. It’s seeming more and more like a sickness, hopefully unique to my parish. I plan on speaking with our priest about it as well. I wish it didn’t happen but it’s caused many who know about it or involved to leave our parish.

 

[john1513]

I know you are concerned for your friends and mean well, but please stay out, way out, of it. No one knows what is really going on in the marriage and the last thing these folks need is someone from outside trying to interfere. People who are so involved and devoted to the Church know how serious divorce is and would not make such a decision lightly. Pray for them and the rest of the family, but there is nothing you should do stop or support it.

To me this is equivalent to walking by a starving child and saying “God loves you” before walking away and doing nothing to alleviate their pain and suffering. It’s what the unbelieving family members find unbelievable about our parish, and thus Catholics in general: talk a big game about marriage, but do nothing to prevent divorce.

 

[EasterJoy]

If my spouse abandoned me, despite all my best efforts, I would hope our “Catholic friends” would be bold enough to try and help them see reason. I guess that’s too much to ask in a divorce culture.

I have personally seen that EXACT same situation TWICE before now at my parish. All from highly involved individuals in the parish. It’s seeming more and more like a sickness, hopefully unique to my parish. I plan on speaking with our priest about it as well. I wish it didn’t happen but it’s caused many who know about it or involved to leave our parish.

You are again making assumptions. Please note that I have said that things may be as you fear. The thing is that they may also be otherwise or may be such that you could as easily make things worse as make them better by intervening without taking the trouble to listen before you leap.

In my experience, however, the best suggestion you can make is to suggest that everyone contemplating divorce owes it to themselves and their spouses to go to counseling and to communicate with their spouse about where things are and how they got there. Why do this? Because even when an annulment is granted people who do not understand how they got into an invalid marriage will too often choose a second marriage that shares the same flaws. The other thing that happens is that they get into a second marriage, have the same problems and only then realize that there had been a remedy to the problems in the first marriage. The family as a whole also continues to suffer from the unhealed problems that caused the divorce, not to mention the bitterness that comes from a divorce that was arbitrated between spouses who had come to no meeting of the minds.

Do not go rushing in assuming that there is no real problem with this marriage. There almost certainly is, even if it is not a reason that renders the marriage invalid.

If you are going to go in, go in to persuade the person leaving that there is value to him or her to go to marriage counselling even if they still eventually go through with the divorce. The reasons to go to marriage counselling are two-fold. One: you can divorce your spouse, but an ex is forever. This couple has children. They need to work out how they are going to be parents to their adult children together, even if they are not going to live the common conjugal life. Two: people who do not really work to understand a marriage they leave and their own part in what made it what it was are all too likely to enter into a second relationship that shares many of the unsustainable flaws of the first. Therefore, the third reason–that is, that the couple may actually come to a common mind and reconcile–is not something the leaving spouse has to believe possible in order to consent to a good faith effort at marriage counseling.,

Now, of course even from a secular perspective divorce is a fate well worth avoiding. I am not saying it is not. I am saying that if someone gets it in her head that she wants a divorce, the best tactic is probably not to try to convince her not to do it. that is very unlikely to work. A tactic with a better chance of saving the marriage is to convince her of the value of understanding why she is doing it completely and the value of laying out an emotional course with a spouse she can never really leave in her past, because he is the father of her children and the grandfather of her grandchildren and always will be.

I have taken that tack, as suggested by a man I knew who told me he regretted that he had not done that. The man I spoke to did decide to go to counseling with his wife, the two did reconcile, and unlike the pour first man who came to realize his folly too late, the second man and his wife are still married 20 years later. I’m pretty sure that if I’d told the man he needed to get back in there and put up with whatever was upsetting him about his marriage, that it can’t be that bad and didn’t he value the sanctity of marriage, he’d have told me to get lost, he’d have divorced his wife, and that sad story would have been that.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

John, it’s a sad situation, no doubt.

But what are you doing?

You are indulging in gossip with everyone from clergy, mutual friends, grown children, other parishioners, one spouse, and the kitchen sink.

It seems everyone is racing around gossiping about the situation and the spouse who left.

Someone. You, needs to stand up and say stop gossiping. I can’t believe the Priest is gossiping or discussing this situation with you. Seriously?

Our Holy Father, Pope Francis told everyone to quit gossiping.

All you can do is pray for them, and tell everyone to stop gossiping, and tell yourself!

 

[john1513]

A tactic with a better chance of saving the marriage is to convince her of the value of understanding why she is doing it completely and the value of laying out an emotional course with a spouse she can never really leave in her past, because he is the father of her children and the grandfather of her grandchildren and always will be.

I fully agree with this tact. The advice to “do nothing” and “mind your own business” that I received elsewhere seems completely un-Catholic and uncharitable.

 

[john1513]

John, it’s a sad situation, no doubt.

But what are you doing?

You are indulging in gossip with everyone from clergy, mutual friends, grown children, other parishioners, one spouse, and the kitchen sink.

It seems everyone is racing around gossiping about the situation and the spouse who left.

Someone. You, needs to stand up and say stop gossiping. I can’t believe the Priest is gossiping or discussing this situation with you. Seriously?

Our Holy Father, Pope Francis told everyone to quit gossiping.

All you can do is pray for them, and tell everyone to stop gossiping, and tell yourself!

Others have advised to fully know the situation before acting which is what I have sought to do. The spouse told me what the clergy told them, which was extremely disheartening. The spouse confided in me with their despair and hopelessness. Their child pleaded with me to help because the spouse’s closest friend in the parish has only encouraged divorce while many in the parish have followed your advice and allowed their friend’s marriage to self-destruct, all in the name of anti-gossip and mind-your-own-business-ism.

 

[Xantippe]

Others have advised to fully know the situation before acting which is what I have sought to do. **The spouse told me what the clergy told them, which was extremely disheartening. **The spouse confided in me with their despair and hopelessness. Their child pleaded with me to help because the spouse’s closest friend in the parish has only encouraged divorce while many in the parish have followed your advice and allowed their friend’s marriage to self-destruct, all in the name of anti-gossip and mind-your-own-business-ism.

That’s not exactly take-it-to-the-bank level evidence.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Marriage is a sacred institution and it’s characteristics include permanence, in our world today that is usually taken for granted. I am not a party to stand aside and mind your own business. In fact it is your business to try as much as is possible and prudent to help them save their marriage. they took vows before God in front of the church, I’ll say it is your business to help them uphold those vows.

But remember prudence is key, listen before you speak. Do not assume you have a handle on it until you’ve talked to both parties.
Try well but try smart.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I appreciate that you may feel you want to help here, but other than providing support to the one spouse who seems to be your friend and to their child, there isn’t a lot you can do. If you aren’t in a position to also hear the side of the other spouse first-hand, not second-hand, then you do not have a complete picture of the facts and maybe your best bet is to be a good listener and pray for and with the half of the couple who is speaking with you.

It may well be that the other half of the couple has an excellent reason for doing what they are doing, but they are choosing to not share it with anyone other than clergy and lawyers, perhaps even out of kindness for the spouse they left behind or for the sake of their child. And if that’s the case then they aren’t going to tell you the full story either.