Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

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I am not sure about the individual temptations but the devil cannot tempt us beyond our limits and against God’s will.
so how do you account for those who end up committing suicide? they couldnt handle the stress. they believed they were in a hopeless situation. all the while hoping for rescue right before pulling that trigger.

tested beyond their mental capacity. 😦
 
You cant answer this simple hypothetical question. I’ll take that as a ‘NO’. Thanks for participating. 😃

Dont worry, i’ll say ‘no’ to that too. 🙂

Now lets wait for Mijoy2, for whom this question was originally for.
As I stated above - This is not a yes/no question. And to insist that it is disingenuous.
 
so how do you account for those who end up committing suicide? they couldnt handle the stress. they believed they were in a hopeless situation. all the while hoping for rescue right before pulling that trigger.

tested beyond their mental capacity. 😦
You are mixing things up between eternal and of of this world and time, and then you just try to project them only in this world and this time. Suffering and death are of this world and time, Catholics look beyond that.

Your strawman would make sense if it were build in accordance with the Church teachings but it is not and so it is automatically faulty. You can question our belief but you cannot build a contradiction by using assumptions that are against our beliefs.

And looking at this last post you are introducing a red herring to justify your strawman.
 
so how do you account for those who end up committing suicide? they couldnt handle the stress. they believed they were in a hopeless situation. all the while hoping for rescue right before pulling that trigger.

tested beyond their mental capacity. 😦
1- Just because we cannot be tested beyond our capacity that does not mean that we will not fail. If that were true nobody would be in hell.

2- I do not read their minds and so I do not know their intent. On the contrary you seem to read their intent.

3- People kill themselves with overeating, is that different? A man killing himself or just dying can be a test for someone else, and the person that died might just be on its path to heaven.
 
I am not sure about the individual temptations but the devil cannot tempt us beyond our limits and against God’s will. That is one of the side effects of having free will.
I am willing to accept the second part, where you say “against God’s will”. But it does not have any relevance in this discussion. Since God’s will is unknowable (by definition) it cannot be brought into the argument. AgnosTheist addressed the first part.

You see, the trouble with the concept of the devil is that it is supposed to act against God’s will (whatever that is). If it simply carries out God’s will (albeit unwillingly), then it has no choice, it has no free will. God simply “outsourced” the dirty work, so he can distance himself from it… not a very decent behavior, at least in my eyes.

Moreover, this assumption puts God’s alleged “goodness” into a very strange light. If the devil carries out God’s will, then all the misfortune following from the devil’s actions is actually nothing, but God’s will. When the devil succeeds in bringing harm, that is also God’s will.

To say the least, this picture is confusing.
 
^ I must admit, suicide wasnt exactly a perfect example. Ok what about those driven to insanity? Their brain couldnt handle the stress.
 
3- People kill themselves with overeating, is that different? A man killing himself or just dying can be a test for someone else, and the person that died might just be on its path to heaven.
Very different. The person who overeats, does not intend to die as a consequence. The one who puts a bullet into his own brain, intended to die.

Again, it has been pointed out that suicide is a mortal sin. So the person who committed suicide cannot be on the path to heaven. If you say that we cannot know God’s final decision on the matter, that is fine. But that puts all the requirements (homosexuality, artifical birth control, missing the mass, wholescale slaughtering of innocents) into a dubious light.

That “argument” that no one can understand what God is or is not doing simply wipes out the whole authority of the church.
 
Again, it has been pointed out that suicide is a mortal sin.
You are still quoting mortal sin but it appears that you have not looked at its definition and requirements. Everything depends on intent too and you should not take posts in this forum as an exact doctrinal answer. Most of the statements are personal opinions.

And why are we jumping on the red herring of suicide? This has nothing to do with the original post!
 
^ I must admit, suicide wasnt exactly a perfect example. Ok what about those driven to insanity? Their brain couldnt handle the stress.
I think that we are talking about two different things. When I say beyond our limits I say beyond our capacity of expressing free will.

If we are in a situation of committing a grave matter but we have been pushed beyond our capability of expressing free will we are not culpable and so we are really not being tested. Probably we are being used as a test for someone else.
 
^ Cristiano, do you have any idea how somebody is tested beyond their limits? Can you give a hypothetical example? Just want to make sure we are on the same page. Thanks.
 
^ Cristiano, do you have any idea how somebody is tested beyond their limits? Can you give a hypothetical example? Just want to make sure we are on the same page. Thanks.
I cannot answer you because our belief is that if we are pushed beyond our limits (our free will is suspended) we are not culpable or accountable. If we are not accountable we are not really being tested.

That is why I say that we cannot be tested beyond our limits. We can be pushed (your example of some suicides would be a good case), but not tested. If we are not accountable that means that we are not committing mortal sin.
 
The one who puts a bullet into his own brain, intended to die.
That fact that death is the final goal (result of the intent) is your assumption. Death could also be an unwanted side effect or a way to achieve another goal. I know of people that killed themselves and in one case the individual loved life but the drugs and the pain took him (according to my opinion) beyond is capability. Others killed themselves because the spite for life, in that case death is the final goal and mortal sin.
 
If you say that we cannot know God’s final decision on the matter, that is fine. But that puts all the requirements (homosexuality, artifical birth control, missing the mass, wholescale slaughtering of innocents) into a dubious light.

That “argument” that no one can understand what God is or is not doing simply wipes out the whole authority of the church.
I cannot know, but I can believe. That from a practical point of view is the same, because whatever knowledge or belief I know what my behaviors should be. The Authority of the Church is based on the belief of the Truth.
 
Is there anything more important to a Christian than personal salvation?

That’s the question.

I’m particularly interested to hear from Christians, and if a mod thinks this is better suited to another forum, please let me know and I will comply. Anyone is welcome to respond and I am interested in hearing from everyone.

The topic got started in this thread . But it has developed into a topic of its own.

Thanks!
To me, Christianity is not about personal salvation. If I got a personal message from God tomorrow that there was no afterlife or that no matter what I did the afterlife was fixed and this life could not change anything, I would not change my life. I am not a Christian because the retirement plan is appealing. I am Christian because being Christian is right and true. I trust in God to take care of the afterlife. I cannot predict it, probably could not understand it, and am not confident I can change it. I just try to do this life well and let God worry about the next one.
 
Again, it has been pointed out that suicide is a mortal sin.
Whoever pointed this out is technically in error, since only God knows the heart of the one committing it.

The only thing we can know is that it is a grave (serious) matter. We cannot know the other two conditions that must be met in order for the sim to be mortal.

We cannot know the state of their knowledge of this seriousness, nor can we know the state of their consent.
 
To me, Christianity is not about personal salvation. If I got a personal message from God tomorrow that there was no afterlife or that no matter what I did the afterlife was fixed and this life could not change anything, I would not change my life. I am not a Christian because the retirement plan is appealing. I am Christian because being Christian is right and true. I trust in God to take care of the afterlife. I cannot predict it, probably could not understand it, and am not confident I can change it. I just try to do this life well and let God worry about the next one.
I agree with the above post…I am not a follower of Christ because I plan on gaining some nebulous mansion in “Nevernever Land”…but I am a follower of Christ because in Him I have found peace in this life…a reason for living in the here and now, a way of life to make the world I live in better. If eternal life exists…then it starts NOW…I will leave the “next life” to…the next life…We are here NOW not to insure we have some “status” in a place yet in the distant future…but to touch the lives of those whom God loves in this life.

I am not overly concerned on what the “next life” brings…I have placed that “life” in the Best of Hands…so I know everything will be OK…this life with it’s cares and worries is enough for me to deal with…and there’s always Grace and Mercy from those same Hands available…“I have come that you may have life, and have it more abundantly.” I’m seeking the abundant life now…it keeps me busy enough.🙂
 
To me, Christianity is not about personal salvation. If I got a personal message from God tomorrow that there was no afterlife or that no matter what I did the afterlife was fixed and this life could not change anything, I would not change my life. I am not a Christian because the retirement plan is appealing. I am Christian because being Christian is right and true. I trust in God to take care of the afterlife. I cannot predict it, probably could not understand it, and am not confident I can change it. I just try to do this life well and let God worry about the next one.
Hi TMC, and thanks for chiming in.

I’m assuming you believe you have something called a soul, and that this soul will experience a salvation/damnation in another “non earthly” existence. That said, I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. Are you in fact stating that this “earthly” existence is more important to you than that “non-earthly” one that is part of your religious beliefs?
 
I agree with the above post…I am not a follower of Christ because I plan on gaining some nebulous mansion in “Nevernever Land”…but I am a follower of Christ because in Him I have found peace in this life…a reason for living in the here and now, a way of life to make the world I live in better. If eternal life exists…then it starts NOW…I will leave the “next life” to…the next life…We are here NOW not to insure we have some “status” in a place yet in the distant future…but to touch the lives of those whom God loves in this life.

I am not overly concerned on what the “next life” brings…I have placed that “life” in the Best of Hands…so I know everything will be OK…this life with it’s cares and worries is enough for me to deal with…and there’s always Grace and Mercy from those same Hands available…“I have come that you may have life, and have it more abundantly.” I’m seeking the abundant life now…it keeps me busy enough.🙂
Publisher, thanks for the response.

I feel exactly the same as you except that I leave the god out of it. And I see you’re Quaker. You guys are pretty sweet.
 
I cannot answer you because our belief is that if we are pushed beyond our limits (our free will is suspended) we are not culpable or accountable. If we are not accountable we are not really being tested.

That is why I say that we cannot be tested beyond our limits. We can be pushed (your example of some suicides would be a good case), but not tested. If we are not accountable that means that we are not committing mortal sin.
So you really dont know what you are talking about. For how can you say ‘beyond’ when you dont even know the limits. Oh well. 🤷

For me its crystal clear that a person who had been driven mad by his problems, had been “tested” (so to say) beyond his limits. the limits is the breaking point.
 
Hi TMC, and thanks for chiming in.

I’m assuming you believe you have something called a soul, and that this soul will experience a salvation/damnation in another “non earthly” existence. That said, I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. Are you in fact stating that this “earthly” existence is more important to you than that “non-earthly” one that is part of your religious beliefs?
Yes. I am Catholic and I would characterize my beliefs on the soul as in accord with Catholic teaching, although I don’t know if you are familiar with that.

I believe that there is an afterlife. I believe that our actions here effect the quality of that afterlife. I believe that the preferred outcome is an afterlife in the presence of God, or Heaven. I believe that instead of that outcome, our earthly actions and attitudes can result in an afterlife outside of His presence, or Hell.

I don’t mean to suggest that this life is the more important one. Because the next life is likely to be an eternal one, which one you get is obviously more important than the earthly existence. But I don’t really know anything about the next life. Are there only two states - Heaven and Hell? Are there other states - various “Limbos” or others? Are Heaven and Hell monolithic, or divided up somehow? What is each really like, beyond “Heaven - with God and good” and “Hell - seperated from God and bad”? I don’t know. Nobody really knows. The Church teaches there is Heaven, there is Hell, there is Purgatory, there may be a Limbo, maybe there are two Limbos. It can’t be known, so I don’t worry about it.

The more interesting question is how do we get assigned to one or the other. I think we do know something about that because Christ taught us some things and the Church has some teachings on it. But I don’t focus on that aspect of religion. To me that is the least important part of religion. To be frank, I think that being Christian in order to get into Heaven is a bad reason to be a Christian.

Let me give you a more wordly example. You know how when they interview some hero-type guy, say someone that ran into a burning building to get a baby? And now he is getting an award or being given some money or whatever. Now if he would have thought about it for a second while he was running through that building he probably could have predicted his actions would yield some award. But when interviewed, those people invariably say “I didn’t do it for recognition, I was just trying to do the right thing” or “my part” or whatever. If he said “Woohoo! I knew saving that little b@#$% would cash in for me! That’s the only reason I ran in there, was for this big fat check!!” What would you think of him, then?

To me Christianity is like that. It may be predictable that Christians will fare better in the next life. But if that is why you are doing it, you are missing the whole point. Personally, it would neither surprise no upset me if we learned that most people go to Heaven, or all but a tiny minority, or even everybody. But that doesn’t me I have been “cheated” or something. I am a Christian because that is the best way to be, it is the right way to be, its part of how I am trying to do my part.

So I will do my best and let God decide what happens next. Its not that what happens next is not important, but its not up to me. To the extent I can really effect it, I’m sure that I can’t do more than try my best anyway, and worrying about it is likely to make being a good Christian harder than it already is.

That’s why I say I’m not a Christian for the retirement program. I am Christian because its the right way to live this life, and this life is the only one I have been given to life, so far.
 
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