H
HopkinsReb
Guest
BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS AND THAT AND THE OTHER THING
- Status
Tis_Bearself
Patron
“Lift High the Cross” has been sung at a bunch of Masses I’ve been at the last couple years. Never heard it before a year or two ago so I never realized it was Anglican. They like to use it around here on feast days relating to the Cross.
H
HopkinsReb
Guest
I used to be a pianist at my Episcopal church in Mississippi, and “Lift High the Cross” and “God of Grace, God of Glory” were always my two favorite hymns to play.
T
TULIPed
Guest
Wow TB - you ARE having a bad day! Hang in there! You always do a great job of defending your faith and our King on this forum. I appreciate your thoughts and insights - and it’s always educational to cross swords (of faith) with you. I - as a Reformed Protestant - think most Catholics want me to go to Mass with them - not because of hell or purgatory - but because they love their church. If I end up in Purgatory, it’s my own fault (my favorite run there is “Styx” by the way - at least the “Purgatory” located in Durango, Co) 
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Thanks for the kind words. You’re right that I’m not too worried about my Presbyterian husband and in-laws going to Hell, as they were good folks and my husband was a better husband than I probably deserved, so to the extent they need a leg up out of Purgatory I have done my best to pray them in with indulgences, other prayers and in the case of my closest relatives, Gregorian Masses. I was mostly a bit sad my husband didn’t really seem to “get” the Real Presence in the Eucharist, but he was a strong believer in Jesus otherwise and never gave me any hassle over Marian devotion, saints, Rosary etc. Surely Mother Mary must look kindly on a Presbyterian who agrees to pray a rosary with his wife even if it’s only to humor said wife.
In any event I think we Catholics have a responsibility to try to pray people into Heaven, not keep coming up with reasons why it’s a lost cause. It’s never a lost cause with God.
In any event I think we Catholics have a responsibility to try to pray people into Heaven, not keep coming up with reasons why it’s a lost cause. It’s never a lost cause with God.
JohnStrachan
New member
One area where Protestants excel over RC is in the area of financial stewardship. My experience with the RC is that giving is reduced to that of alms to the poor. In many, many RC churches when the plate is passed I would hear a lot of coinage. In the Anglican church, the notion of giving a percentage of one’s income is encouraged - many even tithe. As a RC I rarely heard a sermon about generosity or what should be given to support ministry. I suspect part of the issue is that a Protestant church pays its minister a living wage and has to account for his/her family. That being said, RC’s are generally not impressed upon to give very much money.
M
minux
Guest
No, nothing of value.
H
HopkinsReb
Guest
This is the opposite of my experience.
In fact, when in the wake of the Bishop Gene Robinson scandal my family started shopping around for a new church, we were turned off of the Catholic church because the homily the day we checked it out was about nothing but giving, with no theological content.
They raised an enormous amount of money for a really great charity that day in that little RC Church in north Mississippi. I guess it just depends on the particular church, because in my community growing up, when a charity needed money, it turned to the Episcopalians and the Catholics, and they were the two groups best able to fund their own churches as well.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Catholic homilies are supposed to be about explaining the scripture at Mass. They aren’t supposed to be appeals for funds or other stuff. In the cases where a church needs to up its annual giving, it generally sends out letters, puts info in the bulletin, etc rather than preach about needing money.
I myself like that the Catholic Church doesn’t emphasize giving money in the way some (not all) Protestant churches do. If I thought I had to somehow prove I was a good church member by giving X amount, I’d be very put off. And I haven’t seen Catholic Churches in my area being the least bit short on funds, unless they are located in an area that is overall economically depressed so their parishioners don’t have the money to give. Also, nowadays the collection plate isn’t a good barometer of giving, as many of us give online through a website or a bank direct debit. I give monthly but almost never put a donation in the basket, so it routinely looks like I give nothing.
In addition, I thought you were an Anglican. How do you know what’s going on donation-wise at your local Catholic Church these days?
I myself like that the Catholic Church doesn’t emphasize giving money in the way some (not all) Protestant churches do. If I thought I had to somehow prove I was a good church member by giving X amount, I’d be very put off. And I haven’t seen Catholic Churches in my area being the least bit short on funds, unless they are located in an area that is overall economically depressed so their parishioners don’t have the money to give. Also, nowadays the collection plate isn’t a good barometer of giving, as many of us give online through a website or a bank direct debit. I give monthly but almost never put a donation in the basket, so it routinely looks like I give nothing.
In addition, I thought you were an Anglican. How do you know what’s going on donation-wise at your local Catholic Church these days?
Last edited:
JohnStrachan
New member
Really???
I’m rather in the know. I never cut off my relationship with my last RC parish - I still donate $100/month through EFT. I might have issues with their theology, but the parish is still important to me. We were married and our kids received their sacraments at the same church. I vowed to bring our children up according to the teachings of Christ and His Church. I may not attend an RC church but its still is an important part of me.
T
TULIPed
Guest
There is an argument to be made that Jesus spoke more about financial matters than anything else. “It’s harder for a rich man…”; “You must sell all you have…”; “Where your treasure is…”, parable of the talents - and so on.
I think what Jesus was getting at was that money is one measure for the softness of our hearts and our love for him. Tithing - 10% of the first fruits - i.e. before the government gets theirs - is a traditional Biblical minimum. How open and joyful are we towards this hurdle? (I certainly wish I was far more joyful about it!!!)
I think a good question for any church member to inquire of their church is this: what percentage of our church’s annual income is spent on the church itself vs. the needy in the outside world, i.e. the “least of these”? The more “denominational” the church is, the harder this question is to answer. For example, I would think that as part of a Catholic church’s budget for example is a payment “back to” the associated diocese, no?
In any case, I think that stewardship is something that Catholics and Protestants should take quite seriously.
H
Hodos
Guest
I think it is completely appropriate that stewardship should be an area preached about at Church. If we truly believe that Jesus is Lord, then that includes over our finances too. I would be turned off if that were the sole topic preached all the time; but I have never seen that kind of dynamic in any congregation that I have belonged to. By the way stewardship includes our management of all our gifts (time, treasure, talents).
L
leonhardprintz
Guest
You shouldn’t be paying taxes of the donations you give to the Church. At least not in the European countries I’m familiar with, or the US. I’m allowed to withdraw mine before taxes.
Last edited:
T
TULIPed
Guest
Apologies - I wasn’t clear. The 10% tithe should be calculated on your pre-tax income. For example - let’s say you have a lemonade stand and it makes $100 year (terrible business lemonade stands). After a 40% corporate tax rate, it makes $60 a year. Your tithe (from a strictly “legalistic” Biblical standard - we should be joyful about our giving) should be $10 and not $6.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You’re a bit unusual then. Most people who leave the Catholic Church don’t continue to donate large sums every month and stay connected to their old parish. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s not the norm, so I think my question was a fair one.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m having a hard time understanding how it makes sense to calculate a percentage based on “first fruits” when you never actually receive the full amount of money due to government withholding, and when your wages are generally inflated by something close to the percentage of the tax. if the government did away with the tax tomorrow, we wouldn’t suddenly all have 33 percent more money to spend or whatever it is. Either employers would cut wages or inflation would go boom.
it would make more sense to calculate 10 percent after taxes and then if you get a refund give God 10 percent of that.
But then again I don’t believe God is expecting a set percentage or keeping track of dollar amounts, more like keeping track of what is in your heart, and noting your charitable donations as well as what you give directly to the Church.
it would make more sense to calculate 10 percent after taxes and then if you get a refund give God 10 percent of that.
But then again I don’t believe God is expecting a set percentage or keeping track of dollar amounts, more like keeping track of what is in your heart, and noting your charitable donations as well as what you give directly to the Church.
Last edited:
A
Athanasiy
Guest
In Protestant countries, there is still a significant category of people who praise hard work combined with logic, firmness of character, productivity and firm conviction that everything in life must be earned with its own hands and head, and not wait for alms or social assistance.
These features remained even with the conservative Protestants of the old school, and even in the Orthodox countries they are clearly visible.
These features remained even with the conservative Protestants of the old school, and even in the Orthodox countries they are clearly visible.
Last edited:
T
TULIPed
Guest
I’m with you. And yet…
"Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
How do we give joyfully AND sacrificially? To wander back to the OP’s original question - I certainly don’t think Protestants have a lock on this question - but I do think all of us would do well to ponder it.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s something I ponder a lot. I do give fairly generously to the Church, and when I add up everything I give to in a month, which includes churches, Catholic charities, secular charities, state agencies etc it’s probably around 8-10 percent of my net (not my gross). I am not really seeing the churches I need desperately in need of money; when I see them having a major repair, like one church had a parking lot partial collapse, I will give them extra to help with that, but I think there’s some lack of accountability as to where my money goes when it’s going off to the Diocese (as my churches must pay some percentage to the Diocese each year), and this is one reason why I’m not really comfortable with tithing.
Tithing makes the most sense when people are paying to support their local church, their local priest and their local poor because you can see where the need is and see how the money is being spent. The Catholic Church on a diocesan level is not providing that kind of feedback very well.
Tithing makes the most sense when people are paying to support their local church, their local priest and their local poor because you can see where the need is and see how the money is being spent. The Catholic Church on a diocesan level is not providing that kind of feedback very well.
JohnStrachan
New member
I’m a strange duck. I think I actually still want to be RC but can’t reconcile some of the disagreements I have with the church. Since most of my friends and family are churchgoers - either Anglican, RC or Orthodox - it is interesting to note that my disagreements don’t appear to be any more profound than many RCs who “actually” still go to church. Perhaps it’s my foolish pride that is getting in the way. I’m realistic enough to realize that nothing I say or do will change the church. I think the only thing that will bring me back is acceptance. I have to accept that the RC church is what it is and once again embrace that. It’s a work in progress.
- Status