Is there ever a reason not to convert

[RyanL_s_Wife]

mercygate:

All I can say, following this thread is that if and when Mrs. RyanL comes into the Catholic Church, the Church is going to be a big winner! I am deeply impressed by your integrity, your sincerity and your ability to take one step at a time.

Mercygate,

You are so sweet! I love reading your posts. (all of them, not just the ones to me.) You always have the nicest things to say to people. Thank you so much for your kind words. Oh, and you asked earlier…I’m Amy, nice to meet you.

Thanks again,

RyanL’s Wife

 

[mercygate]

RyanL's Wife:

Mercygate,

You are so sweet! I love reading your posts. (all of them, not just the ones to me.) You always have the nicest things to say to people. Thank you so much for your kind words. Oh, and you asked earlier…I’m Amy, nice to meet you.

Thanks again,

RyanL’s Wife

Amy! The name suits you perfectly! You are “Amy”-able!

And (heh, heh, heh) Keep your eyes peeled. I can be a real crank when somebody is messin’ with my head!

But seriously, I have profound sympathy for what you are going through. The conversion experience (I went through at least 5 “you gotta be Catholic” fits before I finally took the plunge) can be agonizing; so unsettling. And you do have to deal with things like family disappointments.

I have the audiotape set of Kimberly & Scott Hahn’s story: *Rome Sweet Home. *Takes about 4 hours to listen to the whole book: great for a day trip in the car. So many of the emotional issues Kimberly went through are parallel with yours. Her husband was not a Catholic but a Presbyterian minister, and she has a theological degree from the same seminary he attended. His conversion preceded hers by 4 years, and it nearly broke up their marriage. PM me if you want me to send it to you.

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

TinaK:

Sometimes I think I could convert; the next minute I think “Never”. Most of the time I find I’m not really Lutheran and not really Catholic. When things get really bad (confusion+uncertainty= :whacky: ) I read “Story of a Soul.”

Ever read “Rome Sweet Home”? It is excellent.

I just finally got brave enough to mention to my pastor my leanings toward Rome, so I’ll see where that goes. More waiting :whacky:

TinaK

My thoughts exactly. Well, you may be a little closer to the Catholic side than me…but yes, that is pretty much how I feel. Therefore, I think I will try “Story of a Soul” since you suggested it. I just finished “Rome Sweet Home” and I can absolutely relate to Kimberly Hann’s story. I think I am at the seeing my dreams disappear stage.

Good luck with the waiting…Try not to let it drive you too insane :whacky: and I will try and do the same.

God Bless,

RyanL’s Wife

ps…And yes, I am blessed to have the husband I do. (of course, three years ago, he wasn’t the same man he is today, so don’t give up on your husband just yet. )

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

LSK:

You have brought up something that troubled Kimberly Hahn. I heard her speak to it on Catholic Radio. I had never thought about what this issue must be like for someone considering coming into the fullness of the Christian faith, and it gave me pause.

She was at Mass with her husband, Scott. She was watching us (Catholics) hit our knees as the priest walked by holding the Host. It dawned on her, “All these people really do believe that this is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ”.

She was faced with the idea that it was either or:

either this WAS the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ

OR

She was witnessing a great evil, one that had ensnared her husband Scott, because all these people were WORSHIPING THAT HOST…they were not merely kneeling to it in symbolic supplication…they were WORSHIPING it.

You are faced with that same dilemna, Ryan L. Wife (and my dear sister in Christ). For 2 thousand years, Catholic Christians have been WORSHIPING that Host. We have been accused of cannibalism. We have been stoned. We have been beaten. We have been dragged through the streets. We have been raped. We have been murdered and we have literally thrown our bodies in front of that Host in attempts to protect it. So we have been either practicing a GREAT EVIL for 2 thousand years OR

That is the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

LSK,

Thank you for your post. I believe I have heard the Kimberly Hann story before, but thank you for refreshing my memory. The true belief of so many people is astonding and compelling.

…And so continues the journey,

RyanL’s Wife

 

[theMutant]

RyanL's Wife:

While I still have some differences in belief to work out, I feel it would be so much easier for our marriage and our children if we were all united in faith. But, I don’t want to convert out of convenience, or because I know it would make my husband happy. Every time I think about “if I converted” I see myself making it as small a deal as possible. I wouldn’t want any “welcome homes” or other comments, in fact, I would rather just blend in and hope no one even realized I converted. I definitely couldn’t see myself telling my family. I don’t see converting as the celebration it should be. I read about how excited people are about their confirmation day, and sadly I don’t think I would feel the same.

Please note: I have only glanced through some of the other responses in this thread.

My initial thought is that you are approacing conversion in the wisest manner. You state that you have some differences of belief to work out. I assume that this means you do not yet completely accept the Catholic faith. If this is the case, then you should wait until you don’t doubt the teachings of the Church. You are right that you shouldn’t go through the process of joining the Church simply because it would make your husband happy or be easier on your children. Your example of not converting until you believe will be a powerful witness to your children on the importance of faith, of examining your beliefs in light of other beliefs, of forming your conscience according to the truth, and of following your conscience before God. If you and your husband can continue to lovingly support one another through this difficulty it will also be a wonderful lesson on the importance of loving commitment in marriage.

I would only add that, as you examine Catholicism, it is important to make a distinction between a difficulty and a doubt. I have difficulty in understanding the nature of the trinity or exacly how the substance of bread and wine becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord while maintaining the only external sensory appearance of bread and wine. However, I do not doubt these things. It has been said that a million difficulties do not amount to a single doubt. If you doubt, then continue to examine. When you no longer doubt, then you won’t have a reason not to convert.

 

[MariaG]

I was thinking about this thread and it kind of reminded me of the day of my “saving grace sermon”. I had a whole bunch of doubts and questions, but God asked me to take a step of faith and to trust Him.

Sometimes we don’t need to find all the answers to our questions and doubts first, sometimes we just need to take that step and trust Him.

Just as you had to take that step of faith to Christ in the first place, maybe you just need to step out in faith, faith that God was able to keep His Church Holy, faith that the promises in the bible “I will lead you to all truth” are big enough to encompass a whole Church and not just individual people. Faith that the husband God gave you truly can be the spiritual head of your household.

Maybe He wants the step before He gives the comfort and answers.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

However, I actually don’t have a problem with confessing to a priest (as an option).

As a Catholic, it is not an option. We must confess our mortal sins to a priest as a normal means to be absolved. Of course, exceptions are allowed where it is not possible. But it is not an open option.
RyanL's Wife:

… to save everything up until I could go make a confession, but then I would be separated from God until I could get there and that doesn’t sound like a wise choice either.

But it is the same with baptism. If a non-Christian decided to be baptised, he starts with the desire. He does not benefit until he actually is baptised, but if he dies in an accident, his desire is then credited to him.

Thus, with confession. Since it is a prerequisite for reconciliation that you have true contrition, then if you die before you have a chance to confess to a priest, your desire and intent to confess will apply to you by means of an exception.

Your contrition and resulting willingness to obey Christ in His Church (by confessing to a priest) has already set you on your way back to full communion, but it is conditioned to that willingness. Meanwhile, until you are restored to the life of grace in the normal manner by the priest, you may not participate in the sacraments of life (e.g. Holy Communion).

If you refused to go to a priest when you could, then you would not receive forgiveness because you remain in the sin of disobedience and the contempt of Christ’s Church.

hurst

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

… Baptists believe that sin separates you from God, so in order to regain that relationship, one confesses to God.

But that private confession does not by itself completely restore your relationship.

It is insufficient for several reasons:

1. it leaves out the injury done to our neighbor.

Matthew 5:24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.

Numbers 5:7 They shall confess their sin, and restore the principal itself, and the fifth part over and above, to him against whom they have sinned.

1. it leaves out the requirement of doing penance

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.

Acts 26:20 … to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him.

Acts 8:22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 17:30 And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance.

Apocalypse 2:5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

1. it leaves out the requirement to be and remain sorry

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

1 Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Isaias 66:2 … But to whom shall I have respect, but to him that is poor and little, and of a contrite spirit, and that trembleth at my words?

Ecclesiasticus 5:5 Be not without fear about sin forgiven, and add not sin upon sin:

1. it leaves out the implication of residual punishment or penalty

2 Sam 12:13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

Josue 7:19 And Josue said to Achan: My son, give glory to the Lord God of Israel, and confess, and tell me what thou hast done, hide it not. 20 And Achan answered Josue, and said to him: Indeed I have sinned against the Lord the God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. … 24 Then Josue and all Israel with him took Achan the son of Zare, … to the valley of Achor: 25 Where Josue said: Because thou hast troubled us, the Lord trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him: and all things that were his, were consumed with fire.
RyanL's Wife:

I was taught, confess as soon as you realize the sin, so you can get right with God immediately.

Again, you can’t get completely right with God immediately. You can decide to turn back to Him immediately, but there is lost ground that needs to be covered again to restore trust. And you aren’t always in control of that part.

John 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

hurst

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

Here’s the problem, we believe that once you ask for forgiveness, God forgives you and that sin is gone.
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
1 John 1:9.

This is where you are mistaken. What do you mean by “sin is gone”? The guilt of the sin is taken away (providing you are truly sorry), but the fault and residual penalty do not automatically disappear. Also, it does not explicitly say confess “privately to God”. Confess implies in the hearing of men.

The very fact that it says He will cleanse us after He forgives us shows that there is more to it. The sin is not gone in such a manner that you no longer need to be sorry about it; and we must cooperate with God to extirpate our faults in the light He mercifully sends us. We must do penance.

True Christian joy is not based on the absence of penance, but on accepting it for the making of peace with God, and sharing in His joy.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.
RyanL's Wife:

… we are calling God a liar by not believing he forgave us when we first asked. (Does this make sense?)

God did not command us in 1 John 1:9 to believe we are forgiven by merely confessing our sins to God in private.
What do you make of this verse?

James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Also, we have no right to presume we have received it, even after doing penance.

Acts 8:22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.

While it is true that a contrite heart is acceptable to God and obtains forgiveness of guilt, we cannot presume to have it.

You are focusing on whether you are sinning by calling God a liar, whereas a Catholic would be disobeying God by not going to confession.

There is a difference between remaining sorry and not believing we are forgiven. The Catholic Church teaches we must remain sorry for the rest of our lives, or else we lose our pardon. Augustine says we must rejoice in our grief. Our forgiveness resides in our repentance and grief.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

1 Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Isaias 66:2 … But to whom shall I have respect, but to him that is poor and little, and of a contrite spirit, and that trembleth at my words?

Ecclesiasticus 5:5 Be not without fear about sin forgiven, and add not sin upon sin:

hurst

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

… In essence, I would feel like I was sinning by re-confessing my sins.

You think telling God your sins is all there is to a valid confession, but even in the Old Testament, going to the priest for forgiveness was required.

Leviticus 5:10 And the other he shall burn for a holocaust, as is wont to be done: and the priest shall pray for him, and for his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 19:22 And the priest shall pray for him and for his sin before the Lord, and he shall have mercy on him, and the sin shall be forgiven.

Job 42:8 … go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath.
RyanL's Wife:

… So that is my problem with confession. Not the typical problem most people have, but there it is. I would love to hear comments on this one.

As I hope I made clear, healing the rift of a mortal sin is not an instantaneous event. It requires responding to God’s call, turning, traveling back, being received, being reclothed, and then living aright. Telling God privately that you are sorry is only a beginning step. If you die the next moment, then you would have a good case that God will spare you from hell - but not from purgatory.

The belief that God forgives you totally upon privately confessing to Him is misleading. For example, there is a distinction between being forgiven of the guilt deserving of hell, and being released from lesser penalties and restored to favor.

We must repent as soon as possible, then confess the mortal sins later to the priest in order to heal the rift with the Body of Christ. A precondition for making our confession is that we have contrition for them. Until then, we do not present ourselves for Holy Communion.

hurst

 

[Lillith]

Hello Ryan L.'s wife!

Nice to meet you!

You have gotten a lot of scriptural responses of why we “confess our sin’s to men”

I would like to try and explain why Jesus said “go out and hear confessions” in my own words, and through tons of thought on the subject. I too am a convert, and had real trouble with this. Why not confess straight to God? I had the same question!

Personally, I believe that Jesus set up the sacrament of confession so that we may learn, and the best way to learn is by making a mistake, repairing the mistake and vowing never to make it again. That might be a problem if you do not even acknowledge that you made a mistake in the first place! When a person goes to confession, he is forced to sit down (I take out the ten commandments and go down the line) and really contemplate what they have done and what they have failed to do.

I have a ton of really good non-catholic friends and family…good people, but I know for a fact that they do not confess all of their sins…for instance, Jealousy or gossip. The human ego is a huge obstacle for this, and I think without being forced to a lot of our sinfulness gets overlooked. An example: I went to my SIL’s church and was astounded to hear gossip going on, and I do not believe that she confesses gossip…it is my SIL’s biggest downfall…when we talk about it she giggles and says…yeah…I need to stop that! One trip to a confessional would be very helpful for her. It is a useful tool that Jesus left us…to help us overcome little imperfections…and to help us over the hurddles of big ones too, and should not be looked at as a block between God and ourselves, but a way to better understand our sinful human natures…and to overcome it, becoming better people in the process.

Think about all of the sins that go unconfessed, due soley to people who justify their sin. I will use real life examples (things I have personally witnessed)…again…good people whose egos will not make them see the wrong they have commited. The wife who divorces her husband because “her soul mate finally appeared”…the man that God meant for her! Divorce is wrong…we all know it…but people will justify. Abortion…because I can’t afford to feed the child and he would have a horrible life. Stealing cable T.V…tons of people do this but don’t see it as stealing because they think they are overcharged anyway…justified! Overspending to keep up with the Jonses…putting your family in peril. These are sins that will stay unconfessed. Most Churches don’t see divorce as sinful…some don’t even see abortion as mortally sinful (heard about a pastor who said abortion was O.K. in some circumstances!)

A lot of my non-catholic friends are really good people, but they will have more difficulty becoming really great people…because they don’t have the TOOL that is the confessional…Jesus was so smart to set it up this way. He really understood human nature for what it is…

God Bless you and your beautiful family,
Teresa

 

[Rebecca_New]

I am a cradle Catholic and the journey of faith has not been easy for me. When I let go and gave Jesus my life, things seemed to get a lot easier to understand. Confession is still one of the most difficult things to do, but I am amazed at how the Holy Spirit guides me during this time. It is also one of the most spiritually rewarding happenings in my life-second only to recieving the Eucharist. Seek the truth, always, and the truth will be shown to you. You are such a lovely person, God must love you in a very special way for all your loving thoughts. :bible1:

 

[robbmiller]

But I have to admit, ever since I started investigating, considering the Catholic church, I have lost a lot of the joy. I almost feel like I am betraying/turning my back on God.

Saint John of the Cross described a spiritual condition he called the “dark night of the soul”, calling it a cold, joyless, confusing spiritual place. He stated that many experience this condition while or after making great progress spiritually. He considered it a great chance to grow closer to God.

St. John of the Cross
On a dark night

On a dark night,
Kindled in love with yearnings
–oh, happy chance!–
I went forth without being observed,
My house being now at rest.

In darkness and secure,
By the secret ladder, disguised
–oh, happy chance!–
In darkness and in concealment,
My house being now at rest.

In the happy night,
In secret, when none saw me,
Nor I beheld aught,
Without light or guide,
save that which burned in my heart.
This light guided me
More surely than the light of noonday
To the place where he was awaiting me…

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Thanks everyone, for all of your insight today. It gave me quite a bit to ponder over. The last few posts I was only able to skim through, but I will look at them more in depth tomorrow.

Hurst, your last few posts contain lots of info. I am not sure if I am convince, but these are definitely things I will have to meditate on. I will let you know if I have any questions, once I’ve had significant time to consider them.

robbmiller, Thank you for the St. John of the Cross
On a dark night I really liked it, I will have to look more into this St. John of the Cross fellow. ** **

Thanks again everyone

RyanL’s Wife

 

[petra]

RyanL's Wife:

Baptists believe that sin separates you from God, so in order to regain that relationship, one confesses to God. I was taught, confess as soon as you realize the sin, so you can get right with God immediately. Here’s the problem, we believe that once you ask for forgiveness, God forgives you and that sin is gone. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
1 John 1:9. However, if we confess our sin and then hold onto that sin, (continuously feeling guilty about it and asking again and again for forgiveness) then we are calling God a liar by not believing he forgave us when we first asked. So the problem is, if I confess to God as soon as I sin and then confess that same sin to a priest later, I would feel like I didn’t trust God enough to forgive me the first time. In essence, I would feel like I was sinning by re-confessing my sins. Or the other option would be to save everything up until I could go make a confession, but then I would be separated from God until I could get there and that doesn’t sound like a wise choice either.

Dear Amy,

I think that Hurst and Lillith have provided some interesting food for thought on this matter, but perhaps I can contribute, as well. As a convert from evangelical protestantism, I have realized that there is a fundamental difference in the way that protestants and catholics view things. Protestants tend to see in a binary, on or off way…am I in or out, am I saved or not, am I forgiven or not? This point of reference focuses on a specific moment of time.

When I was in the process of converting almost 4 years ago, I corresponded a bit via email with a fairly well-known catholic author, and he was the first to suggest this paradigm difference. He pointed out that the protestants view things from more of a legal perspective and catholics view things from more of an organic or relational perspective. It’s taken me a long time to fully assimilate what he meant by that, partly due to the fact that I was still trying to understand this through the lens of the legal paradigm.

The breakthrough for me was that I realized that all aspects of our relationship with God is interactive. It is an exchange between His action and my response, His action and my response, and so on. As such, salvation and even forgiveness is a bit more of a process than an isolated event in time.

Now this is going to be a bit hard to explain, so bear with me…being in a state of grace and friendship with God is dependent upon our responding favorably and appropriately to God given what we know to be His will. When we commit a serious sin (or any sin for that matter) our informed conscience and the Holy Spirit convicts us. We should respond immediately by asking for forgiveness (as you say you do). But for reasons others have shared, God has instituted the sacrament of reconciliation to complete this process and to confer the benefits of developing your conscience and making restitution when necessary. Going to confession is not revisiting something that you took care of by simply praying for forgiveness. It is completing the process. There is no duplication here. Personally praying for forgiveness and subsequently going to confession are our responses in an interactive exchange with God. If you look at this from an organic or relational perspective rather than a binary perspective, it makes more sense.

Now, the Church teaches that protestants can be saved. So if they don’t go to confession after serious sin, how is this possible? How is the process complete? It goes back to the necessity to respond favorably and appropriately to God given what we know to be His will. Without knowing or understanding the role of the sacrament of reconciliation, protestants can be restored to a state of grace through perfect contrition. This basically means they grieve their sins, not because of fear of punishment, but out of love for God and out of regret than sin pains Him. God only holds us responsible for what we know, so protestants are not accountable for not going to confession.

The sacraments are gifts from God. They enable us to experience the fullness of faith that is not otherwise possible. Once we understand this and become joined with the Church, we become accountable to God to complete the process of reconciliation through confession, if we are able. However, if a catholic commits a serious sin, personally confesses it, forms an intention to go to confession, but dies before actually making it to confession, that person is still saved because he or she responded favorably to God up to that particular point in the process.

When viewed through a binary perspective, this may seem like fuzzy theology or “loopholes” for salvation. But it makes sense when we realize spirituality is much more relational and organic.

Hope this helps!

petra

 

[puzzleannie]

RyanL's Wife:

I , but still, if my husband wasn’t Catholic, it wouldn’t even enter my mind to convert. That is where my problem lies. (Most of the time) I think I could accept the teachings of the Church if I just let myself, but the only reason I am considering it, is because my husband is Catholic. I just don’t know if that is the right reason.

I am not up on this concept, but would this be akin to what some evangelicals call “spiritual headship” of the husband? Would those who stress this virtue be supportive on that basis?

to answer your question the way I would if you were in our RCIA program, stay with us, study, pray, enjoy immersion in the Gospel with us, ask questions, get answers, live with Catholics who are struggling with some of the same things you do, and join in our community life. When and only when you reach a point where you are convinced that the Catholic Church holds, believes, preserves and teaches the fullness of what Jesus Christ did, said and revealed, then you have no choice and you must seek initiation in the Catholic Church, no matter what the personal cost or no matter what your family situation is. It might take 3 months, it might take 20 years. If you do not believe this, and wish to have stronger faith, simply ask Jesus to give you this faith.

re-reading my first comment, and the way you express yourself, and reflecting on my own attitudes toward marriage:
is it possible that your resistance to acceptance of your husband’s religion might indicate a broader resistance, natural to women in our culture which is so dedicated to individual freedom, to his ideas in general, and unwillingness to change in a lot of areas because it might mean a loss of your identity? Maybe this is a problem in other areas (how to discipline the children, managing finances etc.) and it would be beneficial for your marriage to discuss more, learn when to allow your husband to lead and when to assert yourself? I don’t expect you to answer of course, just offer it as an area to reflect upon.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Petra has done a very good explanation of the difference- A Protestant perspective of “getting across the line” to be saved while a Catholic perspective is that we really don’t know where that line is. We recognize that if God were to judge us just on our love, faith, works, and sin, we’d be condemned. However, God assures us that He is also merciful (how merciful we don’t know since we aren’t God) thus the fuzziness of the “line”.

But what we do know is that God loves us and calls us to love Him. We can control how much of God’s love we invite into our heart and how much love we give God. The sacraments all expressly invite God’s love into us. But more importantly, God promises that they are efficacious-they give our souls graces to feel God’s love more and give us greater capacity to love God back.

For the life of me, I don’t know how a Protestant gets by without the sacraments. The Church teaches us that we directly experience Christ in four ways in our life- In the Priest at the Mass, Confession, and when he administers the other sacraments, in our fellow man when we look for Christ in them and make Christ available to others thru us, in the Living Word of the Bible, and preeminently in the Eucharist. A Protestant restricts this direct communion to only the Word and others. It looks to me like going thru life on hamburgers, soups, salads and mac and cheese (while good and wholesome) when there is a buffet table of steak and lobster across the street in the Catholic Faith.

I do think though this is why you don’t see the joy in the Catholic Church as compared to your Baptist community. They only have community and the Bible to find Jesus so this where they focus. At the Mass, the worshippers are finding and experiencing Christ at a higher level (in the Priest and His Preeminent Real Presence of the Eucharist). If you are still only looking for Christ in the Word and the other Catholics at Mass, it is like looking in the dingy basement for Christ when He is majesticly and gloriously upstairs in the spacious Great Room.

When one finds Jesus in the community of the worshippers, it is like a sugar buzz one gets after eating a snickers-feels good but isn’t as long lasting. But when one finds Jesus in the Eucharist, it takes longer to fully digest but is much longer lasting. And I find that if I supplement the Eucharist with prayer and the Word during the week, it seems like making it to Sunday Mass is a doable. If I go to Adoration on Friday a.m., I am flying into Mass at full throttle. But if I don’t “eat these snacks” during the week, I’m either starving by Sunday or I fall.

For these reasons, I always say the Catholic Church is a Church for the sinners. I believe that for a Protestant to make it through this life their soul must be inherently less prone to sin (thoughts or deeds that remove us from God and by their repetition can severely harm our relationshop with God) becuase I know this soul wouldn’t make it without the Eucharist. I absolutely need this nourishment just to get by.

Maybe your soul is pure enough to make it. But I personally have experienced the “dry times” and it was the strength (graces) of the Eucharist, Sacrament of Marriage, and Confession that kept me above water.

This is why I posted my earlier post that possibly the best way to discern whether or not to come into the Catholic Church is to live life for a year from a Catholic perspective (looking and finding Christ in the Eucharist and the Priest but especially in the Eucharist). From my earlier post:

I think the advice of living a year as a Catholic (pray a devotion regularly, go up to the Priest at Communion to recieve the Blessing while you pray for a Spiritual Communion, take time to regularly examine your conscience and Pray an Act of Contrition, and immerse yourself in Scriptures) will clear the dissonance in your heart.

 

[petra]

Orionthehunter:

Petra has done a very good explanation of the difference- A Protestant perspective of “getting across the line” to be saved while a Catholic perspective is that we really don’t know where that line is. We recognize that if God were to judge us just on our love, faith, works, and sin, we’d be condemned. However, God assures us that He is also merciful (how merciful we don’t know since we aren’t God) thus the fuzziness of the “line”.

Thanks, Orion. But I would clarify that I don’t think it really is fuzzy–it just seems that way if we are looking at this from a legal perspective rather than a relational one. God actually wants us to have a reasoanble assurance of salvation (although we cannot have perfect assurance–that would be presumption). The whole book of 1st John is dedicated to equipping us with the knowledge needed to diagnose if we are abiding/remaining in Christ.

 

[Orionthehunter]

petra:

Thanks, Orion. But I would clarify that I don’t think it really is fuzzy–it just seems that way if we are looking at this from a legal perspective rather than a relational one. God actually wants us to have a reasoanble assurance of salvation (although we cannot have perfect assurance–that would be presumption). The whole book of 1st John is dedicated to equipping us with the knowledge needed to diagnose if we are abiding/remaining in Christ.

I guess fuzzy isn’t quite the right word for either of us but the distinction between the absolute demarcation professed by the OSAS (talk about presumption! ) and the Catholic perspective is real as you so ably articulated. Where is St. Augustine or G.K. Chesterton when we need them!

 

[hurst]

petra:

…
The breakthrough for me was that I realized that all aspects of our relationship with God is interactive. …being in a state of grace and friendship with God is dependent upon our responding favorably and appropriately to God given what we know to be His will. … Personally praying for forgiveness and subsequently going to confession are our responses in an interactive exchange with God. … Once we understand this and become joined with the Church, we become accountable to God to complete the process of reconciliation through confession, if we are able.

… Without knowing or understanding the role of the sacrament of reconciliation, protestants can be restored to a state of grace through perfect contrition. …

I think you have an excellent grasp of this, and that your summary is well put! Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

hurst