Is there ever a situation where a spouse SHOULD separate?

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That’s a separation, which is allowed, and not a divorce (though there may be legal divorce) religiously speaking, no?
Else they could get married after. If one gets an annulment, that means they were never actually married.
 
Divorce would have to be an option to be allowed.

Civic divorce, legally, in the country wherein the marriage and divorce has taken place, is allowed.
However, religiously, a sacramental marriage is not able to be dissolved. Thus, even if legally divorced, if a divorcee wants to be married, then he or she is required to get an annulment, which is a declaration that marriage never occurred. If the legally divorced man or woman cannot procure an annulment, then he or she is supposed to live a chaste life separated from his or her spouse, as they are still “married” as a consummated marriage between two baptised persons is unable to be dissolved.

So, in the legal, civic sense, divorce is allowed. However, it is not in the religious sense.

If you disagree, specify where and how, please.
 
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Indeed it is, and divorce is not possible in the Catholic Church except as far as civic issues go (explained in greater detail in my previous post).
 
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I give up. I am sitting here next to a Catholic bishop who is also a canonist. He says I am correct. Sorry, but that carries more weight with me than an anonymous person on the internet who repeats himself with no evidence. Have fun, but I have better things to do.
 
I am not sure with what you disagree. I have a feeling we are in agreement, but something has been lost in the specifics perhaps.
 
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Can I just interject as an outsider. It seems you are stating the same idea.
 
Kei said:
Civic divorce, legally, in the country wherein the marriage and divorce has taken place, is allowed.
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And civil divorce is exactly what has been mentioned, while you kept saying it wasn’t allowed.
 
I said that divorce isn’t allowed in the Catholic Church.
After someone said something that implied I needed to, I explained in greater detail what was meant (see my second and then third comments on this whole thread).

I did not “keep saying” that Civil divorce is not allowed. I didn’t say that at all. I said, rightly, that divorce isn’t allowed in the Catholic Church. I then explained what I meant by the statement when it appeared I needed to clarify what it meant, in my next comments. Again, so that no one is left confused, LEGAL divorce is allotted, but an actual divorce, a cessation of the bonds of marriage between two baptized persons, IS NOT. What is allowed is a separation whereby a married person remains celibate, or the acquiring of an annulment, which is a statement that a marriage was never VALID in the first place. An annulment is NOT a divorce. A separation is NOT a divorce. To acquire an annulment requires (at least regionally) a LEGAL divorce, which is not an actual divorce or cessation of marriage bonds, but a mere LEGAL one.

If anything I have said is disagreeable, please simply mention it specifically. I don’t know why people seem to want to argue the point without stating any actual point of contention, or why specifically it was said I kept doing something I never did. I very quickly, when prompted, clarified that legal, civil divorce was allowed, and explained the position which I believe to be the official position of the Church.
 
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Kei said:
If anything I have said is disagreeable, please simply mention it specifically. I don’t know why people seem to want to argue the point without stating any actual point of contention, or why specifically it was said I kept doing something I never did. I very quickly, when prompted, clarified that legal, civil divorce was allowed, and explained the position which I believe to be the official position of the Church.
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The confusion lay in your choice of words.

It isn’t the case that divorce is “not allowed”. It is that the Catholic Church does not recognize that a sacramental marriage can be ended through any “divorce” process. It simply does not exist within the Catholic Church.

Therefore when the church, and anyone else, speaks of a divorce, they are referring to a “civil divorce”. Divorce is a grave offence, but is permitted under specific circumstances. It will not, however, dissolve the sacramental bonds, which require an annulment.
 
Yes, but I would like to point out that an annulment doesn’t dissolve marriage bonds, but declares that such bonds never validly and fully were.
 
Kei said:
Yes, but I would like to point out that an annulment doesn’t dissolve marriage bonds, but declares that such bonds never validly and fully were.
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Even when there are no grounds for nullity, it can be morally permissible for a married Catholic couple to obtain a civil divorce for division of their assets for their separation with the bond remaining.

Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

To the OP: I would not leap to the conclusion that this marriage is not doing you grave harm. Having said that, as others have said this is a matter for a qualified ear who has heard the particulars of your case and has had an opportunity to ask pertinent questions.

Make an appointment with your pastor–you should ask for at least half an hour–in order to ask your pastor about your situation in some depth. Just say you have a matter of a personal nature and you need his advice. When you get it, go from there.

Shows of contempt and the silent treatment (stonewalling) are two of Gottman’s four marks of a marriage that is going to end in an emotional or civil divorce, marks he calls “The Four Horsemen of the Apocalpyse.” The other two are personal criticisms and defensiveness.
(See Four Do's & Don'ts of Marriage - Catholic CounselorsCatholic Counselors)

If you’re not leaving, you need a plan for saving your marriage. Living in a defacto divorced situation and doing nothing about it is no way to live. That is not a conjugal life.

Generally speaking, if civil divorce is necessary for just division of marital property it is morally allowed even if the couple is separated with the bond remaining–that is, not candidates for a decree of nullity. A civil divorce is not something to be entered into lightly, but that does not mean it is forbidden to validly married couples (or couples in a putative marriage when the grounds for nullity are uncertain) when it is necessary.

One has to hope that the husband’s affection-withholding behavior, which must also be harming him, can be remedied and that this couple can somehow mend their relationship. I don’t know if that is possible, but the chances of a reconciliation and survival of this marriage grow dimmer every day that this “apocalyptic” situation goes on. What good does it do to preserve the pretext of a marriage? It is the harmonious marriage that benefits children, family and friends, not marriages that are more opportunities for mutual psychic harm than for anything else.
 
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guanophore said:
If you study the lives of the saints that were married to impossible people it will become clear that your sanctity and prayer is what is paramount.
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No doubt that spiritual health is important. However, that’s not good enough reason to stay in a miserable and emotionally abusive marriage. I think one of the reasons Catholicism is criticized is because there’s the belief that we’re supposed to endure whatever punishment life throws at us because doing so proves our steadfast obedience to God.

[ then again, I also don’t believe that God is a Matchmaker who uses his powers to draw people into marrying each other]
 
on_the_hill said:
No doubt that spiritual health is important. However, that’s not good enough reason to stay in a miserable and emotionally abusive marriage. I think one of the reasons Catholicism is criticized is because there’s the belief that we’re supposed to endure whatever punishment life throws at us because doing so proves our steadfast obedience to God.
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I am not talking about “spiritual health” as much as the sacrament of matrimony, which is until death does part. Even a person who separates for safety reasons has an obligation to pray and remain faithful to the abuser.

Yes, we are to endure whatever suffering comes our way.

Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

This what it means to take up our cross and carry it. Yes, this is what proves our steadfast obedience to God.

Staying in a a miserable and emotionally abusive marriage is not a requirement. separation may be the most healthy alternative, but the spouse is bound to pray and offer penance for their partner.
 
Yes,
You are right I need pro help. As for talking to ‘amateurs’ - I just wanted some advice from somewhere anonymous before I possibly kick open a wasp nest. No one on outside would believe this, so if anything changes it will be shock to many.
But I need to find the right priest, if that makes sense. Having worked in a diocese I know they are all very individual with strengths and weaknesses. But yes you are right.
We have been to many counselors back when behaviors were radically wrong-verbal, beginning of physical, drinking, other unmentionables. One counselor reached him to cause him to control worst of it, but she has since passed away.
I feel so embarrassed to talk to parish priest and “tell him all”. I’m not sure I could look him in eye again. That’s why I really wish there was a phone hotline to a counselor priest. (90% of time we function pretty well, and almost always present picture of perfection to exterior world.)
As I said I understand the indissolubilty of marriage and its importance. At depth of depression, ‘death do us part’ took on a different meaning even - but as with motherhood, my vows and obligation to God, I held on.
 
AMP1 said:
I feel so embarrassed to talk to parish priest and “tell him all”. I’m not sure I could look him in eye again. That’s why I really wish there was a phone hotline to a counselor priest. (90% of time we function pretty well, and almost always present picture of perfection to exterior world.)
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Your priest is going to have nothing but sympathy for your situation, but you need to feel you are unloading your burden with someone who feels safe to you in addition to satisfying you intellectually that he or she is a safe choice. You could call the diocese anonymously and ask about Catholic marriage counselors or priests that they’d suggest are particularly good at this sort of thing. You’ll know they’ve heard everything.

You don’t have to find a priest. The main thing is to find someone whose discretion is unquestionable and who you are satisfied will give you advice and guidance in keeping with your faith.
 
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To answer the question “Is there ever a situation where a spouse should separate?” in a general way , the answer is “Yes” . It can be a duty in some circumstances to separate e.g. for the safety and well-being of some within the marriage .

In the particular instance referred to in the OP . I would advise consultation with trusted friends and relatives .
 
guanophore said:
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Yes, we are to endure whatever suffering comes our way…
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But you’d have to agree that there are most definitely instance where that’s not true. Disease, illness, homelessness, war, etc. are things we’re called to end, not endure.
 
on_the_hill said:
But you’d have to agree that there are most definitely instance where that’s not true. Disease, illness, homelessness, war, etc. are things we’re called to end, not endure.
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Both things are true. A spouse should leave and take the children away from a violent, drug abusing, ,or otherwise criminal/immoral environment.

But even when a couple separates, the endurance of suffering continues. Most of the time, the standard of living is vastly compromised. Children are then separated from their other parent. The same level of care is required with less resources.

We should do all we can to eliminate suffering and those conditions that produce it, but doing so will not alleviate us from suffering in the process.

I was listening to Relevant Radio today. I am not sure who the priest was who was talking, but he was saying that Christians were being used as lamps in Rome to light the streets. They died for their faith. Eventually, Christianity became legalized, but not before many thousands suffered and died for their faith.
 
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