Is there Faith in Scottish independence?

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Scottish Church has ecclesiastical independence but questions remain for Catholics over country’s future

The Scottish Government’s plans to hold referendum in 2014 on independence have sharply divided opinion among leading Scots Catholics.

An exclusive Scottish catholic Observer survey of many of the foremost Catholic voices in Scotland found that, while most agreed it was a matter for the Scottish people to decide, there were underlying concerns that an independent Scotland could be even more hostile to Catholics than the status quo of the union by remaining as part of the United Kingdom.

To read more visit: sconews.co.uk/latest-edition/15663/is-there-faith-in-independence/

Editorial: Can Catholicism flourish in the Scotland that lies ahead? sconews.co.uk/opinion/15692/can-catholicism-flourish-in-the-scotland-that-lies-ahead/
 
Hi there,

I am a Scottish Catholic and am fiercely opposed to “independence”.

(NB - “Independence” is actually a spurious term; Scotland is not ruled by England or any other nation, rather Scotland is in a partnership of nations. “Dissolution of the UK” would be a better term).

Scotland has been - since the reformation - a pretty bigoted, anti-Catholic nation. Anti-Catholicism seems to be in many peoples DNA. For centuries, Catholics were hated by many Scots.

In Scotland - as in other places - many people would traditionally call themselves “Protestants” - but this is a meaningless term. There is no “Protestant Church” nor “Protestant Christian”. Rather, there are up to 70,000 different groups, all claiming to be Christian, who the term “Protestant” refers to. Most of these groups are like chalk and cheese and certainly there is nothing resembling a unified belief.

In Scotland, after the reformation, different “Protestants” came together to forge a common identity, or as close to one as they could manage. As mentioned, “Protestants” have no common belief - indeed, some of their groups are close rip-offs of Catholicism - and so rather than form a common identity based on what they were, (which is naturally impossible, given the nature of Protestantism), they formed an identify on based on what they were not. Thus, anti-Catholicism became the root of modern Scottish identity.

In the few centuries since the reformation, Protestantism of all shades in Scotland has proved to be an abject failure. There are no surprises here, for we Catholics. However, while these denominations have seen church-going decline tremendously, hatred of Catholics has not. Indeed, bigotry is one of the few remaining tangible aspects of Protestantism in Scotland.

The Church of Scotland - at best a hollow parody of Christianity - is expected to cease to exist in 20 - 30 years. However, up until a mere 10 years ago, the official opinion of this “Church” was that Scottish Catholics (a minority group) were:
  • immoral drunkards
  • out to undermine Scottish society
  • responsible for most crime in Scotland
  • “racially inferior” to non-Catholic Scots
Naturally, this hate speech has caused severe divisions in Scottish society. The former position of the Church of Scotland with regard to Catholics has quite remarkable parallels to Adolf Hitler’s position with regard to Jews (this is by no means an exaggeration).

What was most galling, was that at the same time as preaching this hatred, the Church of Scotland consistently claimed that Catholic schools were the main source of social division. So, they were liars, as well as bigots.

In the modern era, Protestant Church-going has collapsed (and no wonder). Protestant Churches are now largely the preserve of a dwindling band of very elderly people. However, while “protestants” have abandoned faith, they certainly have not abandoned anti-Catholicism.

While “Protestant” Churches are lie empty, or are sold off as pubs or converted into flats - Orange Marches (anti-Catholic parades) can still draw as many as 8,000 people in Scotland (a recent stat for a Glasgow march).

A residual dislike of Catholics - left over from the folly of Protestantism - is still very common in Scotland.

An SNP MSP recently suggested that, in an independent Scotland, the Catholic Church could be stripped of it’s right to conduct marriages (as punishment for not carrying out “gay marriages”). The Scottish Conservative Party has recently been involved in various minor scandals regarding anti-Catholic sentiment. Had it been gay people or black people, the scandals would have been major-scandals. It is still common today for people to blame Catholic schools for causing divisions in Scotland.

Basically, many people in Scotland are ill-informed, easily led bigots, who - in their ignorance - see Catholicism as alien / strange. Which is pretty ironic, given anything good in Scotland came originally from the Catholic Church - Papal support for self-determination, the Papacy founding various Scottish Universities, Catholic Christianity founding our moral values etc.

Modern Scotland is a small, parochial, inward looking, deeply bigoted country. It is not the impressive, fierce Catholic Scotland of the pre-reformation days.

I have no doubt that “independence” would spell difficult times for Scots Catholics and that is but one reason why I am fully committed to the United Kingdom - which, while still generally anti-Catholic - is much more tolerant that Scotland as a separate entity.

Rule Britannia!
 
I am an English/Welsh/Irish/Scottish Catholic (proper Heinz 57 there!) although nobody would mistake me for anything other than English, and I’m quite relaxed about the idea of Scottish Independence (I think it would be fairer for both England and Scotland to cut the ties, at least as far as ‘devo-max’).

I don’t see why independence, devo-max, or the current arrangement should have any impact on Catholicism in Scotland. Scotland is relatively culturally and ‘tribally’ independent as it is, so any anti-Catholicism will carry on unabated by any supranational political machinations I’d expect.
 
Scottish Church has ecclesiastical independence but questions remain for Catholics over country’s future

The Scottish Government’s plans to hold referendum in 2014 on independence have sharply divided opinion among leading Scots Catholics.

An exclusive Scottish catholic Observer survey of many of the foremost Catholic voices in Scotland found that, while most agreed it was a matter for the Scottish people to decide, there were underlying concerns that an independent Scotland could be even more hostile to Catholics than the status quo of the union by remaining as part of the United Kingdom.

To read more visit: sconews.co.uk/latest-edition/15663/is-there-faith-in-independence/

Editorial: Can Catholicism flourish in the Scotland that lies ahead? sconews.co.uk/opinion/15692/can-catholicism-flourish-in-the-scotland-that-lies-ahead/
Most Scots, when asked, oppose independence for the U.K. They may privately want an independent Scotland, but publicly will vote it down. The SNP now a majority party may yet hold that referendum, which will not be binding on England as such matters are reserved to the U.K. Parliament.

I wonder about England. Afterall, they hold onto those 6 non-self sustaining counties that comprise N. Ireland with a vise lie grip – to what purpose? I can’t see them just letting Scotland out of the union when they won’t let 6 counties be reunited with the Irish Republic.

Personally, I would favor total independence with reunification of N. Ireland with the Republic, but I don’t vote in Scotland or N. Ireland.
 
My dad and I nearly had a fight in a Scottish pub: They were playing Rangers v Eindhoven on TV, and my dad innocently asked how Celtic were doing.

“Are ye a Catholic?”

“Yes” replied my dad.

Anyway after a lot of shouting about papists, my dad said: there’s only one answer then. “What’s that?” asked a few of them. “Violence” said my dad. He had played prop for Sale Sharks so he was pretty tough. …Silence… then the landlord yelled, “Drinks are on me.” Two hours later we crawled out best friends with everyone!

So the real question is: “Is there independence in Scottish faith?”
 
The SNP lot are just going to sell Scotland to the EU in the end. Sovereignity for Scotland… Absolute joke. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. Scots at the heart of it just need to get over Maggie Thatcher stealing their wean’s milk.
 
I’m engaged to a guid Scots lass, spend a lot of time in Scotland and I can tell you Scottish independence will make no difference to the Catholic Church in Scotland. What is called “anti-Catholicism” is actually tribalism which, while it once had a sectarian basis, is something people who engage in it do for no better reason than because they think they should. “My dad and his dad and his dad were Rangers fans so I hate Catholics” kind of thing. That won’t change, in or out of the Union with England. The SNP has been attracting a lot of Catholic votes in recent years because of its anti-sectarian stand, and there’s no reason to think they would change that outlook in an independent Scotland.

A lot of the people who are trying to raise the anti-Catholic spectre are actually Unionists making mischief, and in Scotland today, “Unionist” essentially means the Labour Party - the Tories are history and the Lib-Dems are dying. Unfortunately, the Labour Party in Scotland, and especially the west of Scotland, is one of the most rotten and corrupt organisations in Europe. They’re a perfect example of why it is necessary to change governments periodically. This party has controlled so many Scottish councils and parliamentary seats for so long, they actually think they are entitled as of right. In the past, Catholics had supported them because at one time, they actaully were reformers who protected minorities like Catholics, but that day is done. Now, they’re just pure career aparachiks who are spouting garbage about discrimination in order to panic Catholics into voting for them.
 
Scotland will be more anti-Catholic if “independent”. The difference will be that it won’t be coming from the Protestant end. It will be the militant secualrists and atheists imposing laws, etc., on Scotland from Brussels. Of course the current crop in Westminster aren’t all that better but we stand a better chance of turning the tide with only the UK to deal with rather than the EU.
 
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