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Charlemagne_III
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Yes, that would require admitting that if they can’t figure it all out on their own, it ain’t true.
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Oreoracle
Guest
I question the whole premise of “trying” a belief. Beliefs are not like snacks you can sample from a platter. One cannot “try” to believe that pigs can fly. One is either gullible enough to believe it or they are not.
But going back to the platter analogy, what Pascal is suggesting is more comparable to asking someone to eat the same food for the rest of their life. Pascal’s argument is based on the afterlife, so you need to believe in God until you die. If you make the wrong choice, you can’t just choose a different food later. You’re stuck with it.
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Charlemagne_III
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No, he is asking them to try a different food than they have ever tried before.
That is not an unreasonable request, though an unreasonable child might refuse it!
When in my teens, I refused to try salmon. In my twenties I tried it and have been eating it for the rest of my life.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
As I said, “if I understand Pascal’s Wager”, I took Pascal’s Wager to mean if you don’t believe, pretend to believe.I don’t agree. All Pascal is saying is, if you don’t believe it, try believing it.
Try it you’ll like it!
And who wouldn’t like it once they’ve tried it?
Someone who’s made up his mind beforehand that after he tried it he wouldn’t like it, has conned himself.
That’s not even backfire. If anything, it’s forefire!
You took it as if you don’t believe, try believing.
Big difference between the two views, it hasn’t been very long since I first heard of Pascal’s Wager and the meaning that I took it to mean is what I thought it meant.
Pretending to believe seems to me to be a con job.
Trying to believe to me would probably even include “praying” to someone/something that one does not believe in but nevertheless attempts anyway.
If one pretends, they are just deceiving themself.
If one “tries”, they just might be “surprised”.
Of course if one pretends, who knows, they just might be surprised too since, as it is written, “God works in mysterious ways”.
The people that seem to “know everything” about God, and I am talking about the God Who Is, just might be the people who will be the most surprised when they meet God.
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Charlemagne_III
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Yes, it certainly would be a con job on yourself if you had no intention of keeping up the pretense.
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Tom_Baum
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Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Isn’t Pascal’s Wager something to the effect that if you don’t believe in God, pretend to believe in God so that you will go to the “good place”?
With the inverse part of Pascal’s Wager being that if you don’t believe in God or pretend to believe in God than you will not go to the “good place” but to the “bad place”?
I could be completely wrong on my interpretation of Pascal’s Wager but if I am not, than Pascal’s Wager is nothing more than trying to con God and IN BELIEVING that IF there is a God than God is a egomaniac Who rewards those for believing or pretending to believe in God and punishing those that don’t believe or won’t pretend to believe in God.
Personally, I believe that God likes honesty and would prefer honesty to one trying to hedge their bets.
Isn’t Pascal’s Wager something to the effect that if you don’t believe in God, pretend to believe in God so that you will go to the “good place”?
With the inverse part of Pascal’s Wager being that if you don’t believe in God or pretend to believe in God than you will not go to the “good place” but to the “bad place”?
I could be completely wrong on my interpretation of Pascal’s Wager but if I am not, than Pascal’s Wager is nothing more than trying to con God and IN BELIEVING that IF there is a God than God is a egomaniac Who rewards those for believing or pretending to believe in God and punishing those that don’t believe or won’t pretend to believe in God.
Personally, I believe that God likes honesty and would prefer honesty to one trying to hedge their bets.
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Charlemagne_III
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This does not fairly represent Pascal’s argument, which can best be understood not just by the Wager Argument, but by seeing the place of the Wager Argument in relation to the rest of Pensees.
Pascal argues that if you try to believe, and live as though you believed, you may discover eventually that you really do believe. That is not dishonest.
Just as if I try salmon, I may discover that I liked it when all along I was fairly convinced I was not going to like it.
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JiminyCricket
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Many atheists are as unconvinced by the Christian story as Christians are of say…Scientology…or Hinduism. So ask yourself if there is any hope for a Hindu evangelist to convince you of the truth of Shiva, and you’ll have some sense of what you are up against.
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Charlemagne_III
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Since I have been an atheist, I pretty well know what I am up against.
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Thorns
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Although I am a believer, I can sympathize with this statement. The truth is always an easy thing to explain or to even realize on one’s own. With such complex arguments, I’ve noticed it tends to lose people halfway through the explanation and they begin to see it as a bit of stretch.
I tend to agree here too. People usually get turned off when you go on with the “packaging” of the philosophy. Instead, just straight forwardly give them the reasons why this or that is the way it is and explain it to them in a logical way. This can be done without mentioning God even or quoting Scripture, since as Catholics, we believe our beliefs are reality, they’re not reality because we’re Catholic.
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oldcelt
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Thank you for that Emily.
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Charlemagne_III
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I think they never have that same kind of certainty. When I was an atheist, I know I didn’t have it. And if I thought for a moment I was infallibly certain there is no God, by that fact alone I would have had to convert to Catholic to believe in God, because there is only one organization on earth that claims to be infallible, and it certainly isn’t the atheists of the world.
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Charlemagne_III
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I think you are misguided here and you should not be comforting yourself (and atheists) that atheists will go to heaven because of their good works. Works alone are not sufficient. The first and greatest commandment is to love God. No amount of good works is going to cover disobedience to the first and greatest commandment. This is to commit the greatest mortal sin. Moreover, you have to repent and beg forgiveness for your sins before you die. How can the atheist do that?
I am so weary of Catholics who defend atheism as a pathway to heaven.
Luke 13:
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
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catholicscot
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I think that as regards atheists in heaven the important thing to remember is that the combination is ‘what people do’ and ‘why people do it.’ For a Catholic that can be unproblematically defined as good works combined with explicit faith. There can, however be assumed to be a category of people who carry out good works as a consequence of implicit faith. Such people demonstrate a response to the grace they have received in the works they perform (although good works can be performed for bad reasons but that applies to nominal Catholics too). Something nonetheless prevents them from professing a faith in Jesus. This might be actual ignorance, they have never heard about Christianity or it has never been accurately explained to them. Unavoidable ignorance is not a sin and cannot be punished so we may hope for the salvation of those who respond to the promptings of the Spirit so far as their actions go and acknowledge God so far as they reasonably can on the basis of the information available to them.
Most Western atheists, of course, have heard about Jesus and do have access to all the sources of information necessary to enable them to make intelligent decisions about faith. Nonetheless the Church recognises a category of ‘Invincible Ignorance.’ Essentially this means that for reasons connected to their personal history, family background, cultural milieu, personality type and so on some people can, without being guilty of sin, fail to accept faith but yet respond to the promptings of grace in other ways. We can hope that through the mercy of God, the prayers of the Church and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary such persons will in due course find their way into heaven. Although in no particular case can we be certain.
Most Western atheists, of course, have heard about Jesus and do have access to all the sources of information necessary to enable them to make intelligent decisions about faith. Nonetheless the Church recognises a category of ‘Invincible Ignorance.’ Essentially this means that for reasons connected to their personal history, family background, cultural milieu, personality type and so on some people can, without being guilty of sin, fail to accept faith but yet respond to the promptings of grace in other ways. We can hope that through the mercy of God, the prayers of the Church and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary such persons will in due course find their way into heaven. Although in no particular case can we be certain.
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Charlemagne_III
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Invincible ignorance can hardly be invoked in the West.
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
“Fools say in their heart, ‘There is no God.’ Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good.” Psalms 14:1
“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.” 2nd Timothy 2:11-12
Many of the atheists I have met in these forums know plenty about Christ. They have no excuse. They know full well what they have rejected.
Now explain something to me. How does one receive the grace to do good works but does not receive the sufficient grace to have faith? If you are going to refuse the grace to have faith, why would you not also refuse the grace to do good works? Do you think good works are going to excuse you from rejecting God? Is that your “insurance policy” in case you’re wrong? But if you’re not that sure there is no God, why bother to be an atheist, which sounds like an infallible position to hold?
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catholicscot
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I did not say that all atheists will necessarily be saved. I suggested that those who do not accept faith for reasons which cannot be considered sin and who respond to the promptings of grace in other ways might be saved. You may attribute someone else’s atheism to their pride but only God can know what goes on inside a persons heart and mind. If the Church can, as it does, hold out hope for the salvation of some of those who have no explicit faith then you can too. Besides, the only soul you are answerable for is your own and can you be sure of your own salvation?
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Amandil
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As a fomer atheist it began as a rebellion against the nihilism inherent in the atheist system. There is no purpose to life or anything in atheism. Sure there are pleasures to occupy yourself with but even pleasures are subject to the law of diminishing returns. When you’re finally bored with everything that interest you then you have death to look forward to. Then what? Non-existence. You realize eventually that you’d have been better off never having been to begin with.
It drove my whole being into rebellion against the atheist system. Then it was a sincere and open search for the truth, no matter where it led me.
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Charlemagne_III
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I do have hope for them, and I pray for them often that they will have hope for themselves.
But the Church teaches that anyone who dies unrepentant in a state of mortal sin is in hot water and heading for hot coals.
Not exactly in those words.
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Emily2014
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Hello Charlemagne 111,
I respectfully wonder if you truly wish to imply that only Christians (? only Catholics?) will be allowed to enter Heaven ? Atheists do not believe there is an afterlife and have a right to hold that view. It doesn’t make them wicked people! The concept of mortal/venial sin is I believe to be solely Catholic, like Purgatory.
Christ directed us to “Love others as I have loved you…” (Not just Catholics or even just Christians). God created us all equal and judges us in His loving wisdom by the way in which we live our lives. There are so many wonderful Jews, Buddhists and those who follow so many different paths, leading exemplary and laudable lives. Were you truly presuming to suggest that we as Catholics are some sort of superior race and that those who do not share our beliefs will suffer for all eternity.
God loves us all equally, with understanding and compassion. God bless you.
I respectfully wonder if you truly wish to imply that only Christians (? only Catholics?) will be allowed to enter Heaven ? Atheists do not believe there is an afterlife and have a right to hold that view. It doesn’t make them wicked people! The concept of mortal/venial sin is I believe to be solely Catholic, like Purgatory.
Christ directed us to “Love others as I have loved you…” (Not just Catholics or even just Christians). God created us all equal and judges us in His loving wisdom by the way in which we live our lives. There are so many wonderful Jews, Buddhists and those who follow so many different paths, leading exemplary and laudable lives. Were you truly presuming to suggest that we as Catholics are some sort of superior race and that those who do not share our beliefs will suffer for all eternity.
God loves us all equally, with understanding and compassion. God bless you.
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Charlemagne_III
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You may disagree with Scripture if you like.
“Fools say in their heart, ‘There is no God.’ Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good.” Psalms 14:1
You may also disagree with the Catechism:
2140 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the first commandment.
Obviously, the sin of atheism must be for all atheists, not just Christians who become atheists.
If you study your catechism more carefully, you will learn about the natural law, which is indwelling in all human beings. The knowledge of God is built into us. We deny it at our peril. The atheist cannot spit in God’s face and hope to be saved, any more than the Catholic can spit in God’s face when he violates the natural law.
The atheist can be saved, but first comes the repentance. We all pray that atheists will come to their senses and stop refusing to admit their sins and ask God’s forgiveness.
The atheist doesn’t get a free pass into heaven because he sincerely believes there is no God. If fact, he has lied to himself about God, for whatever purpose it may serve him (as it served Satan) to lie about God to Adam and Eve. He is still lying to every atheist about God, and every atheist is willfully buying into the lie.
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