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Righteousone
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Oh give me a break with the pregnant women…not even what anyone is talking about here…:dts:
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CalmDownWisWins
Guest
Since Whatis has put me on his /ignore list, which he has told me specifically he’s done, it seems my questions and/or responses are a bit overly “difficult” for him.
I was rather enjoying our conversation, but I really DO expect this sort of behavior from those who can’t support what they say and won’t tolerate hearing the truth.
In truth, we were understanding each other quite well, and that understanding was VERY uncomfortable to Whatis.
It would be nice if we could just get to where we could agree to disagree without one of us first derailing into the morass of sheer panic (and emotionality) at being unable to get to the base of what they think they believe because of a sudden realization that there is no support under their beliefs.
But, lack of responsiveness to truth-seeking is a hallmark of some “trends in Modern Christianity”.
That’s why I stick with the old school.
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sodak
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It is EXACTLY the answer to your question. Now you answer mine. No, I’m NOT giving you a break.
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Righteousone
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What’s the question?
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whatisthetruth
Guest
cont…
Closing comments.60 what if your “death bed” is in a car that was blind sided on the freeway, doesn’t leave much time for repentence!
I believe, God may see the truth within our heart in how we exercised our faith in Jesus Christ.
Is it the heart of our faith that God will judge. And what we did with the truth of Jesus love in our hearts?
Do the lost souls of the world see Jesus within us in our own spiritual journey of faith?
Is Jesus’ love evident in the way of our actions, thoughts, and words?
Would God deny John Doe heaven because he received Jesus in thier heart differently at communion than another Christian?
Or
Would God deny John Doe heaven because he didn’t receive Jesus at all?
The bottom line is no matter how we receive Jesus, in the process of communion, we are taking in **Jesus in our heart **and not our stomach. Do you believe that is all that matters to God.
If the answer to that question is no, then might the way we receive communion determiine our salvation???
Wow!! Did I ask that??
Let’s go with it
God bless,
truth
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Kolbe300
Guest
I can’t figure out why a couple posts have made it sound as if you must be a practicing Roman Catholic in order to be saved. That isn’t true, as the Church makes quite clear. The Church is undoubtedly the “fullness of Christian truth” but God is not incapable of working outside of the sacraments. The OP asks whether there would be hope for salvation for a non Roman Catholic. The answer is simple: yes. Every human being has hope for salvation.
whatisthetruth, what I am curious about is the desire so many protestants have for this 100% guarantee that if you die right now you will go to heaven. One thing that has to be realized is the fact (undeniable fact) that you can have 100% BELIEF that you will go to heaven but you cannot have 100% KNOWLEDGE that you will. Because of that, there simply is no guarantee. There isn’t a human being on the planet that can KNOW they will go to heaven at this moment or at any moment. It is physically and spiritually impossible. And there is no way for anyone to argue against that fact. Faith and knowledge are two very different things.
Recently in another thread, I mentioned that I believe those who claim this 100% assurance are really trying to make what they believe is a wonderful example of faith. What it is, however, is a premature and impossible to make judgement. St. Paul warns against the very thing (1 Cor 4:4-5):
“My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
We should avoid declaring our own selves saved when it is something only God can declare and it is something God will declare in His own time. Not ours. If I die right this moment I don’t know for 100% fact that I’m going to heaven. I have 110% hope that I will, but God will make that decision.
Anyways, just my two cents. Peace!
whatisthetruth, what I am curious about is the desire so many protestants have for this 100% guarantee that if you die right now you will go to heaven. One thing that has to be realized is the fact (undeniable fact) that you can have 100% BELIEF that you will go to heaven but you cannot have 100% KNOWLEDGE that you will. Because of that, there simply is no guarantee. There isn’t a human being on the planet that can KNOW they will go to heaven at this moment or at any moment. It is physically and spiritually impossible. And there is no way for anyone to argue against that fact. Faith and knowledge are two very different things.
Recently in another thread, I mentioned that I believe those who claim this 100% assurance are really trying to make what they believe is a wonderful example of faith. What it is, however, is a premature and impossible to make judgement. St. Paul warns against the very thing (1 Cor 4:4-5):
“My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
We should avoid declaring our own selves saved when it is something only God can declare and it is something God will declare in His own time. Not ours. If I die right this moment I don’t know for 100% fact that I’m going to heaven. I have 110% hope that I will, but God will make that decision.
Anyways, just my two cents.
Peace!
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Righteousone
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no disrespect, but your posts are awfully long…
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sodak
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Post #99.
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Kolbe300
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whatistruth, you are asking a question (with regards to the person dying in a car accident after falling into sin) that is impossible for a human being to answer. Only God can answer that question for you. Was the man a slave to deadly sin? Had he repented? Was he driving to go to confession? We do not know the man’s heart, we do not know his mind, and we cannot see that man or any man through the eyes of God. I don’t think I’d want to ease Thomas and fragile’s fear because those who fear God are blessed. Paul tells us to “hope for salvation with fear and trembling.” Shouldn’t we do that? Shouldn’t the man driving the car do that? You aren’t getting an answer to that question because it’s an impossible question to answer.
I think you should come back to the Catholic faith because it is the firm fullness of Christian truth! I think the reason you aren’t getting the firm answer you desire is because, again, it’s an impossible question to give a firm answer to. I can’t, nor will I, answer a question that only God can answer. Sure, I believe the man can be saved. God “can” save anyone He desires to save. As for whether or not He “will” save that person. It’s up to God.
Thank you for spending time on the board and for doing it with kindness. You are a brother in Christ. Peace!
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De_Maria
Guest
Scripture says I must persevere to the end:
Matthew 10
22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
And in the meantime I should not judge even my own self:
1 Corinthians 4 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.
And work out my salvation in fear and trembling:
Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
True. You must be born again in water and Spirit. The waters of Baptism will wash away your sin and you will be members of the Body of Christ in whom salvation is found.
Acts Of Apostles 22
16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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fbl9
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hi whatis… there are to many varibles in the situation you presented to give a definitive answer.myself i have been in such a situtation minus the crash and i was truly in fear for my soul. had i died i know by His own word that i would have been condemned.if a man turn to sin I will not remember the good he done but the evil. this is from the OT can not find exact quote. now on to your question regarding the Eucharist. this is from St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians.ch11:29;"for he who eats and drinks unworthly,without distingushing the-body- eats and drinks judgement unto himself. my question how can bread and wine judge one unless it is the judge Himself? what is noticable about St John 6:53-71,is what Jesus does not say.He never says come back it is not really my flesh I tell you to eat, I mean you are eating a symbol of Me.
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whatisthetruth
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whatisthetruth
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Hi fb
HMMM I wonder why??? There lies a question that I know Roman Catholics have made a firm decision as to why Jesus did not call back
…maybe a test of faith???
Truth
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whatisthetruth
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sorry Kolbe I missed 109 aboout the car accident.
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Renton405
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whatistruth? Are you going through the death penalty?
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Kolbe300
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Thanks for the discussion whatisthetruth! I didn’t check out the Q & A by Rev. Muller only because there really isn’t a need when answering whether someone who isn’t Roman Catholic can be saved. An earlier poster gave the quote from the Catechism on the subject. That is official Church teaching. If Rev. Muller, regardless of how respected a theologian he may be, says otherwise, he is incorrect and not speaking for the Church. Hopefully that clears that question up.
And I certainly don’t think any less of you for having 100% faith that if you die right now you will go to heaven. But why do you put in the restriction that you can only talk about right now and not tomorrow, next week, or a year from now? I think you’ve said that you believe salvation can be lost. Is that correct (and if so, how?)Most protestants I have discussed with, at least in regards to the 100% issue believe that 100% assurance extends for their entire life, regardless of how they live it. I wouldn’t make that declaration about myself or anyone else because, like I’ve said, only God knows what we are going to do with our gift of faith.
I don’t consider you arrogant either.
I personally think that God would like us show others how to reach heaven, rather than celebrate our already being there. Do you know what I mean?
First off, I would wonder what I was doing at the altar.
In that situation, I really think I would have 100% faith that I would soon be rejoicing in heaven. But why do we have to examine salvation in terms of these special cases?Not only should we not judge one another, like you said, but Paul here warns against judging ourselves before the due time, even with a clear conscience. You are absolutely right, we aren’t innocent and we are forgiven by the Blood of Jesus Christ. And the Bible says we should hope for salvation. I will hope for salvation on earth and I will declare it in heaven. That doesn’t mean I can’t declare and share the wonderful gift of faith God has given me, or the gift of His Son and the gift of the Cross, and the gift of salvation. I don’t deny for a second that salvation is an unmeritted gift from God. I also won’t deny that I am capable of turning my back on that gift.
continued…
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Kolbe300
Guest
continued…
Wow, it’s late! Thanks again for the discussion. I look forward to more in the future. Have a great weekend!
Peace!
Amen! Salvation is a gift. Our works do not save us. We are only saved because of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. We cannot boast because any good thing we do is Christ working through us. All glory goes to God!
Amen!
Amen! And one must ask themselves, "What does it mean to “believeth in him”?
Amen!!
Amen!!
I totally agree with you that God promises us salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. I think where we may differ is in exactly what it means to have faith in Jesus Christ.
Wow, it’s late! Thanks again for the discussion. I look forward to more in the future. Have a great weekend!
Peace!
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fbl9
Guest
hi whatis… could you explain how Jesus’s word in St John6;53-70 are a test of faith.So Peter declares “where would we go for you have the words of everlasting life”.is a test everlasting life? i can not understand why Jesus would say to those who preached in His name performing miracles and casting out demons,away from me I do not -know-you.from scripture one protestant pastor said the word know in the bible means a intimate knowledge as Mary did not-know- a man.so when we(catholics)recieve the Eucharist with full faith,Christ knows us intimately.
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Renton405
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And u have to remember St. Paul gives us a wonderful verse on why the bread and wine isn’t just bread and wine…
*For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
24
and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28
Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. *
Earlier in the verse St. Paul says the bread and wine shouldn’t be used a regular food. Because of how important it truely is…
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
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That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
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But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged.
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But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
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So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another–
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if any one is hungry, let him eat at home–lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come.
really think about that… NOT DISCERNING THE BODY, eats and drinks judgement upon himself. Very hard verse if you think its just a “symbol”
*For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
24
and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28
Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. *
Earlier in the verse St. Paul says the bread and wine shouldn’t be used a regular food. Because of how important it truely is…
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
30
That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
31
But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged.
32
But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
33
So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another–
34
if any one is hungry, let him eat at home–lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come.
really think about that… NOT DISCERNING THE BODY, eats and drinks judgement upon himself. Very hard verse if you think its just a “symbol”
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