Is there ogling in heaven?

[Bubba_Switzler]

Of course, He is the center of everything.

I think you misunderstand the question. The question is not whether God is the center of attention in heaven but whether he is the SOLE point of attention. If God is the SOLE point of attention, then the saints don’t even bother to say “good morning” to one another.

What would lead you to believe that heaven is about you and not focused on God? Seems pretty clear that in Scripture and tradition that God is the center, not to mention the logic that the Creator/Father is a more important person to an earthly child than his brothers and sisters (in the ideal situation).

Among other things, Matthew 18:8 which describes heaven as a banquet. (See the above discussion with LilyM.)

More directly, we know that the saints, in heaven, are concerned with us mortals here on earth. That’s why we pray to the saints for their aid and intercession. If God were the SOLE point of attention in heaven, then parying to the saints would be pointless.

If God were the SOLE point of attention in heaven then the better analogy would be to say that heaven is like sucking at the teat of God for eternity.

Your question is about like asking the angels on pins question. We’ll know when we get there and He will explain how the system works there.

I think it illuminates other issues that are of more immediate concern.

 

[fhansen]

What would lead you to believe that heaven is about you and not focused on God? Seems pretty clear that in Scripture and tradition that God is the center, not to mention the logic that the Creator/Father is a more important person to an earthly child than his brothers and sisters (in the ideal situation).

Peace…

MW

Yes, as long as we keep in mind that God’s desire is *our *complete happiness-that’s the point Adam & Eve missed-that as long as we’re focused on Him, our joy, peace, and happiness is complete beyond imagination. But I don’t see why that would necessarily make other created things off-limits to our enjoyment as they’re all expressions of Him. And like you alluded to and 1Cor attests to:

**“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him” **

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yes, as long as we keep in mind that God’s desire is *our *complete happiness-that’s the point Adam & Eve missed-that as long as we’re focused on Him, our joy, peace, and happiness is complete beyond imagination. But I don’t see why that would necessarily make other created things off-limits to our enjoyment as they’re all expressions of Him. And like you alluded to and 1Cor attests to:
**“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” **

More than that, I think, is the possibility that God is complete THROUGH his creation, even in heaven.

LilyM cited 1Cor in arguing against my assertion that there are chocolate bars in heaven. But I think is suggests the opposite, that God has prepared something there for us. Maybe not chocolate bars like we have here on earth, and maybe not even the perfected chocolate bars that I conjectured, but something more than mere communing with God, it would seem.

(As a friend liked to say, who wants to spend eternity in Church?)

 

[fhansen]

More than that, I think, is the possibility that God is complete THROUGH his creation, even in heaven.

LilyM cited 1Cor in arguing against my assertion that there are chocolate bars in heaven. But I think is suggests the opposite, that God has prepared something there for us. Maybe not chocolate bars like we have here on earth, and maybe not even the perfected chocolate bars that I conjectured, but something more than mere communing with God, it would seem.

(As a friend liked to say, who wants to spend eternity in Church?)

Yes, but what the CC refers to when she speaks of the Beatific Vision is not church. The experience of being in Gods’ immediate presence is itself considered to be so overwhelming that created things are simply incomparable. Another way of putting it is by asking, Is the best that we experience here on earth really enough to satisfy us for eternity?

 

[thistle]

As foundthelight has shown with some dictionary defintions, “ogle” is a very ambiguous term.

But is it your claim that sex is what makes lust sinful?

Interestingly, there are some theological philosophers who argue sex is an eartlhly manifestation of the relationship we will have with God in heaven. And that the reason that it is sinful to violate the marriage vows is that it is equivalent to being unfaithful to God.

The Church Teaching:

LUST

CCC 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

CCC 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

Setting aside, for the moment, whether one can actually lust for God in the sexual sense, and whether ogling necessarily entails lust, it would seem from this defintion that it is not sex which makes lust sinful.

Being that God is usually presented as male, perhaps it would be a question best put to women whether it is conceivable to be sexually attracted to God. (In the movie Dogma, God arrived at the end in female form, and a very attractive one at that.)

Returning to the original question of ogling, it is worth noticing that lust, as defined above, is far more particular than ogling, for which the dictionary defintion was previously given.

It seems quite plausible to me that one can ogle without being lustful.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yes, but what the CC refers to when she speaks of the Beatific Vision is not church. The experience of being in Gods’ immediate presence is itself considered to be so overwhelming that created things are simply incomparable. Another way of putting it is by asking, Is the best that we experience here on earth really enough to satisfy us for eternity?

These are a couple of very thoughtful points. Personally, I’d be happy if God merely conquered death and heaven were otherwise no different from our earthly existence.

But this raises the more interesting question: what do humans really want, eternally speaking? In the movie The Matrix, humans refused to accept a blissful existence created by the computers for them. Many of the joys in life come directly or indirectly from hardships.

Or, as I like to ask: Is there football in heaven?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I think you misunderstand the question. The question is not whether God is the center of attention in heaven but whether he is the SOLE point of attention. If God is the SOLE point of attention, then the saints don’t even bother to say “good morning” to one another.

I don’t see why it has to be that way. I fully expect to have a relationship with the angels and the other saints. But, I expect that collectively and individually, our attention and focus will be primarily on the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. What is the percentage? I don’t know. We’re trying to split hairs when we begin to discuss how much focus is on God and what is on others.

Among other things, Matthew 18:8 which describes heaven as a banquet. (See the above discussion with LilyM.)

More directly, we know that the saints, in heaven, are concerned with us mortals here on earth. That’s why we pray to the saints for their aid and intercession. If God were the SOLE point of attention in heaven, then parying to the saints would be pointless.

I’m not saying we’re going to be sitting in trances looking at the Father every second of the day. My point being that God will be our main focus. Why would our focus be on so many other things when the Trinity is there in our presence? I don’t follow how paying attention to God means that we have no relationship whatsoever with others. That’s just ridiculous speculation in my opinion.

If God were the SOLE point of attention in heaven then the better analogy would be to say that heaven is like sucking at the teat of God for eternity.

I think it illuminates other issues that are of more immediate concern.

Wow, that is one disturbing view. So be it.

Dominus Vobiscum,

MW

 

[fhansen]

These are a couple of very thoughtful points. Personally, I’d be happy if God merely conquered death and heaven were otherwise no different from our earthly existence.

Yes, but eternity’s an awful long time.

But this raises the more interesting question: what do humans really want, eternally speaking? In the movie The Matrix, humans refused to accept a blissful existence created by the computers for them. Many of the joys in life come directly or indirectly from hardships.

Or, as I like to ask: Is there football in heaven?

The answer is that humans don’t know what they want-we don’t even know what to want. All we know is what the world has to offer. The experience of God, as testified by those who’ve been given much deeper experiences than movie-makers are capable of -unless they happen to have been so blest themselves-is so unimaginably awesome that we simply have nothing to compare it to. And while I’m sure there’ll be plenty of created beauty in heaven, the uncreated One will still command most of our attention-not by any kind of force but solely by virtue of His unfathomable beauty. And so for that reason, to hunger/desire/thirst for God can only be a good thing.

 

[thistle]

These are a couple of very thoughtful points. Personally, I’d be happy if God merely conquered death and heaven were otherwise no different from our earthly existence.

But this raises the more interesting question: what do humans really want, eternally speaking? In the movie The Matrix, humans refused to accept a blissful existence created by the computers for them. Many of the joys in life come directly or indirectly from hardships.

Or, as I like to ask: Is there football in heaven?

What is with all these silly questions?
Are you going to give a list of millions of questions asking if this, that or the other will be in Heaven.
You are trying to compare Heavenly existence with your limited knowledge of earthly existence and its simply not possible to do that. You seem to be implying its going to be boring there.
Speculation is a waste of time.
Give us a break!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I fully expect to have a relationship with the angels and the other saints.

Then you are in agreement with me on the matter: God is not the sole point of attention in heaven. And, hence, the question of whether there is ogling in heaven is not absurd, at least on this point. (If God were the SOLE point of attention in heaven then we could rule out ogling on that point alone, which is what several in this thread argued.)

But, I expect that collectively and individually, our attention and focus will be primarily on the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. What is the percentage?

I don’t think it’s necessary, important, or even interesting to figure out that question.

Why would our focus be on so many other things when the Trinity is there in our presence?

Let me reframe your question slightly: why would the saints concern themselves with sinners on earth?

Dominus Vobiscum,

Solum potestis prohibere ignes silvarum.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The answer is that humans don’t know what they want-we don’t even know what to want. All we know is what the world has to offer. The experience of God, as testified by those who’ve been given much deeper experiences than movie-makers are capable of -unless they happen to have been so blest themselves-is so unimaginably awesome that we simply have nothing to compare it to. And while I’m sure there’ll be plenty of created beauty in heaven, the uncreated One will still command most of our attention-not by any kind of force but solely by virtue of His unfathomable beauty. And so for that reason, to hunger/desire/thirst for God can only be a good thing.

I tend to agree with your sentiments here. But I have one point of disagreement: we do have a point of comparison.

God created this earthly existence for our benefit. Many atheists become so because they think they could create a better universe than God did. But I place my faith in God’s creativity and therefore I am inclined to think that suffering is part of God’s plan to create goodness, like athletes suffering in practice to perform better on the field.

While we are ignorant of what heaven is actually like, we do have a point of comparison.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What is with all these silly questions?
Are you going to give a list of millions of questions asking if this, that or the other will be in Heaven. You are trying to compare Heavenly existence with your limited knowledge of earthly existence and its simply not possible to do that. You seem to be implying its going to be boring there. Speculation is a waste of time. Give us a break!

See my reply just above.

But, on the contrary, I have faith that it will NOT be boring.

Is there football in heaven? That is to say, will we be challenged in heaven? Will we enjoy being challenged? These are not silly questions.

 

[Lujack]

As much as “Is there football in Heaven?” seems like a stupid question to some of you, its one that vexes me, too. That’s one question that dances in my head, but because how it is hard to explain how important that is to me, I’ll stick to another one:

If I get to Heaven, will I eat Thanksgiving dinner with my relatives again, some of whom have died? What if some of them don’t make it to Heaven? Will I know? If I do, then it won’t be very joyous to know that, say, my cousin is in Hell, unless something about the nature of Heaven makes me not care, in which case I’d question how wonderful it is.

Do I get to see my grandmother again? If yes, doesn’t that mean I do other things than contemplate God? If no, than what comfort is the afterlife?

This seems like a stream of consciousness, but saying that we do nothing in Heaven but contemplate God raises these questions. What if the Beatific Vision includes earthly things, but God can be perceived in them? In others words, instead of playing football, we play heavenly football, which we were only able to gain glimpses of shadows on Earth. Sort of like True Narnia and True England, which CS Lewis wrote about.

 

[fhansen]

I think the questions are valid-after all, the unknown is scary. What I’ve come to believe is that God is so good and trustworthy that whatever He has in store for us will be better than whatever we might think would be best. He knows each of us better than we know ourselves and He created everything we like here and so I doubt He’ll fail us in the next life. And if that means that He’ll include football and ogling, then so be it. But if ogling means what it usually does-the semi-secretive “look” which JPII refers to in Theology of the Body, where we more or less objectify another-then I suspect we’ll be needing to raise our sights some before His vision becomes very clear to us.
Otherwise we really can’t know anyway. So we walk by faith and grow in trust and love.

 

[arvinsim]

I dunno about what anyone thinks here but any activity here on earth will eventually become boring if done in eternity.

If there is one thing that I know about heaven, it won’t be boring. So I think the “eyes not seen, ears not heard” verse only makes sense.

 

[LilyM]

What if some of them don’t make it to Heaven? Will I know? If I do, then it won’t be very joyous to know that, say, my cousin is in Hell, unless something about the nature of Heaven makes me not care, in which case I’d question how wonderful it is.

Put it this way - you may know that your cousin is in Hell, you’ll also know exactly how he or she came to be there, and why he or she is there.

And you’ll also see, knowing God as you are known by Him, the utter justness, rightness and fittingness of your cousin being where he or she is and the utter impossibility of anyone who rejects God being in heaven, or being truly happy even if they were.

Would you be happy spending eternity with someone whose company you find so intolerable that you’ve rejected them? Neither, I should think, would those whose rejection of God and what He is and stands for place them in Hell, be happy even were they to enter Heaven.

Do I get to see my grandmother again? If yes, doesn’t that mean I do other things than contemplate God? If no, than what comfort is the afterlife?

Being in God’s presence doesn’t mean that you literally notice nothing else, or that you need notice nothing else. Being perfect as God is, I should think we’ll notice a good deal as He does, we’ll just see it through His eyes rather than our own.

So of course you’ll see your grandmother again, assuming she’s there with you - but you’ll love her with God’s infinite and perfect love, rather than your own inferior earthly brand.

This seems like a stream of consciousness, but saying that we do nothing in Heaven but contemplate God raises these questions. What if the Beatific Vision includes earthly things, but God can be perceived in them? In others words, instead of playing football, we play heavenly football, which we were only able to gain glimpses of shadows on Earth. Sort of like True Narnia and True England, which CS Lewis wrote about.

As much as I love CS Lewis, he has something to answer for in writing that. Marriage will be done away with, for example, because marriage is a pale shadow of the far more intimate communion we will all experience with Him, and with our fellow citizens of heaven through Him.

So will football be done away with, replaced by something as yet unknown, probably, because it’s not an end or a good in itself, like marriage isn’t an end or a good in itself. Both are good only in so far as they reflect God, His love for us and the glories that await us in Heaven.

The aim in eternity won’t be ‘perfect football’, or ‘true football’, but rather simple and true perfection full stop. Football never will be and never can possibly be part of this ultimate perfection, just as marriage never can possibly be more perfect or true than the communion I’ve described above. Both are very subsidiary and inferior goods at best.

 

[thistle]

See my reply just above.

But, on the contrary, I have faith that it will NOT be boring.

Is there football in heaven? That is to say, will we be challenged in heaven? Will we enjoy being challenged? These are not silly questions.

Listen my friend. We should all be concerned about getting to Heaven rather than what it is like there. We know there is no sin there. We know there is no temptation to sin there. We know there is no suffering there. We know it will be wonderful being in union with God.
Getting there is the hardest part. Catholics who die in a state of grace will be saved. Catholics who die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin go to Hell. Anyone who rejects Christ and his Church (the Catholic Church) will go to Hell.
Remember Jesus said many will go to hell and few will be saved (I’m paraphrasing. if you want his exact words let me know).

 

[Lujack]

Put it this way - you may know that your cousin is in Hell, you’ll also know exactly how he or she came to be there, and why he or she is there.

And you’ll also see, knowing God as you are known by Him, the utter justness, rightness and fittingness of your cousin being where he or she is and the utter impossibility of anyone who rejects God being in heaven, or being truly happy even if they were.

I don’t know if I’d be able to deal with that. What if its my father, and I got up every day longing to see him again (my father is still alive, thank God!)? What kind of heaven would it be if I had know forever that he was in agony for all of eternity?

Would you be happy spending eternity with someone whose company you find so intolerable that you’ve rejected them? Neither, I should think, would those whose rejection of God and what He is and stands for place them in Hell, be happy even were they to enter Heaven.

That’s probably true, but what about those in Heaven? Isn’t knowing your loved ones are in Hell a hell all in itself? In fact, if I had to create a Hell for myself out of my limited human understanding, it would be paradise, but a paradise where I knew my family never made it.

Being in God’s presence doesn’t mean that you literally notice nothing else, or that you need notice nothing else. Being perfect as God is, I should think we’ll notice a good deal as He does, we’ll just see it through His eyes rather than our own.

So of course you’ll see your grandmother again, assuming she’s there with you - but you’ll love her with God’s infinite and perfect love, rather than your own inferior earthly brand.

Okay, this makes sense.

As much as I love CS Lewis, he has something to answer for in writing that. Marriage will be done away with, for example, because marriage is a pale shadow of the far more intimate communion we will all experience with Him, and with our fellow citizens of heaven through Him.

That’s true, but I don’t remember CS Lewis writing anything about marriage.

So will football be done away with, replaced by something as yet unknown, probably, because it’s not an end or a good in itself, like marriage isn’t an end or a good in itself. Both are good only in so far as they reflect God, His love for us and the glories that await us in Heaven.

The aim in eternity won’t be ‘perfect football’, or ‘true football’, but rather simple and true perfection full stop. Football never will be and never can possibly be part of this ultimate perfection, just as marriage never can possibly be more perfect or true than the communion I’ve described above. Both are very subsidiary and inferior goods at best.

How do we know any of this, first of all? Secondly, though, what is the point of creation if there is nothing in Heaven that even resembles it. My shadow takes my outline. If Heaven in no way resembles creation, not even in the vaguest sense, how is it related to the earth?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Solum potestis prohibere ignes silvarum.

Funny quote. I was being serious with my blessing to you.

Quisque comodeus est.

MW