And, yet, exploring what heaven is like tells us much about what salvation is about.Listen my friend. We should all be concerned about getting to Heaven rather than what it is like there.
Agreed.We know there is no sin there.
I am unconvinced of this. Do not God and the saints suffer when they see us sinning?We know there is no temptation to sin there. We know there is no suffering there.
I want to take this up in a seperate thread, because it is a much broader subject, but JPII could be interpreted as saying that appreciating physical beauty is sinful. (For that matter, appreciating anything about a person from athletic skill to intellectual acumen would be sinful.)But if ogling means what it usually does-the semi-secretive “look” which JPII refers to in Theology of the Body, where we more or less objectify another-then I suspect we’ll be needing to raise our sights some before His vision becomes very clear to us.
This is an important point: heaven is an excuslive club. Just think, for example, how much more enjoyable earthly existence is when you are in good company vs. bad. But it does not follow that thge saints would be happy to ignore the suffering of sinners.Would you be happy spending eternity with someone whose company you find so intolerable that you’ve rejected them?
This is one reason that I’m skeptical that there is no suffering in heaven. Either a) you don’t care in your “perfected” state, or b) you grieve for those who are failing. Given that the saints care about us, I tend to think the latter.I don’t know if I’d be able to deal with that. What if its my father, and I got up every day longing to see him again (my father is still alive, thank God!)? What kind of heaven would it be if I had know forever that he was in agony for all of eternity?
I think this is a very important point. I like to make this analogy: you could say that getting a job and starting a family is nothing like going to school but there are important similarities and, more importantly going to school is designed to prepare you for life after school. There are not irrelevant to each other.How do we know any of this, first of all? Secondly, though, what is the point of creation if there is nothing in Heaven that even resembles it. My shadow takes my outline. If Heaven in no way resembles creation, not even in the vaguest sense, how is it related to the earth?
Ego conor. Pax vobiscum.Quisque comodeus est.
Nah, JPII was an intelligent, educated, modern, and open-minded thinker-and truly spiritual. It would be helpful to read Theology of the Body. You’d come away knowing that the author in no wise finds evil in physical beauty or any other aspect of Gods’ creation nor in the natural attraction of the sexes but that he recognizes an element at work in the human heart which can lead it to an area outside of or beyond its own nature-turning natural appreciation or attraction into concupiscence- along with its’ inherent problems.I want to take this up in a seperate thread, because it is a much broader subject, but JPII could be interpreted as saying that appreciating physical beauty is sinful. (For that matter, appreciating anything about a person from athletic skill to intellectual acumen would be sinful.)
I will. I’ve heard it referred to with admiration and I am glad to hear your elaboration here. One of the subthemes I wanted to explore in this thread was the fine line between appreciating physical beauty and sinful lust. I’m still not clear on where it is and I want to understand it better. (At a minimum, I’ll probably spend a few eons in pergatory for lusting for my wife.)Nah, JPII was an intelligent, educated, modern, and open-minded thinker-and truly spiritual. It would be helpful to read Theology of the Body. You’d come away knowing that the author in no wise finds evil in physical beauty or any other aspect of Gods’ creation nor in the natural attraction of the sexes but that he recognizes an element at work in the human heart which can lead it to an area outside of or beyond its own nature-turning natural appreciation or attraction into concupiscence- along with its’ inherent problems.
I think that’s true but remember, also, that the sinner is not the only victim of sin. And it is the sinners, and not the saints, who care least when those around them are suffering. There are some references in the OT to God’s being disgusted with humans and their sinning (e.g. before he sends the flood).In regard to suffering in heaven or the lack thereof; I think the poster was referring to the suffering that sin and this world in general causes within us until we’re freed from it individually. As St Augustine said, “Sin is its own punishment”.
CCC 1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, **the state of supreme, definitive happiness. **And, yet, exploring what heaven is like tells us much about what salvation is about.
Agreed.
I am unconvinced of this. Do not God and the saints suffer when they see us sinning?
(And, for that matter, is there Mexican food in heaven? Because I love spicy food.)
That’s not what it said. And I did notice that you dodged the evidence I offered contrary to your miststatement.No temptation to sin and no suffering.
What evidence?? I just re-read your post and can’t see any. In case I am looking at the wrong post which post number are you referring to?That’s not what it said. And I did notice that you dodged the evidence I offered contrary to your miststatement.
In the post you quoted, I asked, “Do not God and the saints suffer when they see us sinning?”What evidence?? I just re-read your post and can’t see any. In case I am looking at the wrong post which post number are you referring to?
With regard to your question, how is that evidence of anything? Its a question only.In the post you quoted, I asked, "Do not God and the saints suffer when they see us sinning?"
Further to my point, see Luke 15:10 in which Jesus says, “In the same way, I tell you that there is joy in the presence of God’s angels over one sinner who repents.”
In short, heaven is concerned with the sins of man.
It was a *rhetorical * question.With regard to your question, how is that evidence of anything? Its a question only.
My evidence is that heaven is concerned with human sin and disappointed when it occurs. Heaven rejoices when a sinner repents, ergo, it is possible for those in heaven to be happier (or not) according to the choices that we make here.As to the Scripture quotation how is that evidence of suffering in Heaven unless by implication you mean on the opposite side there is somehow suffering if people don’t repent on earth? However, that is speculation and not evidence of anything. Where is your evidence of suffering in Heaven.
If you are saying there are different degrees of happiness that does not mean there is any suffering!It was a *rhetorical * question.
My evidence is that heaven is concerned with human sin and disappointed when it occurs. Heaven rejoices when a sinner repents, ergo, it is possible for those in heaven to be happier (or not) according to the choices that we make here.
At a minimum, it means suffering our rejection of God. But I would infer additionally that it is empathetic suffering, as for example when innocent children are aborted. Additionally, as I think I mentioned previously, there are many references to God being disgusted with human sinfulness or with particular human practices.If you are saying there are different degrees of happiness that does not mean there is any suffering!
I agree and I would also say that creation is to God as the human body is to the human soul as the locus of the human person. Just as our soul is realized in the human body, of which it is the form, I think creation – as viewed eternally by God, not in slices of time – is the realization of the spiritual God. So this is not pantheism, but a mystical immanence of God. It also makes better sense of God’s omnipresence.More than that, I think, is the possibility that God is complete THROUGH his creation, even in heaven