Is there quiet time in a Divine Liturgy for personal reflection?

[jwinch2]

That is not the Eastern praxis. That is why we have hesychasm where people repeatedly pray (usually the Jesus Prayer) even in silence as monks do. Just shutting people up and hoping they are all focused on the same thing is a pretty tall order. I guess you can say the Eastern Fathers have figured out that if you don’t give people something to do, they’d each do their own thing.

I was under the impression that the first part of your post…

I mean, not just because they are being quiet together means it is communal. The focus of prayer is personal, so it is not communal even if they do it together.

…was in reference time for silence in the Latin tradition and that you disagreed with the teaching that silence can be a communal act. I guess I misunderstood that aspect of your post. Where you only speaking on Eastern praxis with that comment or the whole of Christian thought?

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

I think I have always assumed that private prayer is not something we do when we are worshipping God in a community per se as at church.

But recently my priest has taught me a a little about this time in Communion. In the choir I am singing so hadn’t been an issue with me. But when I am serving my mind has tended to just unhealthily drift.

Some of the church wanted this part to be total silence which the Priest was willing to give it a go for them. I instantly dreaded it even more because I genuinely don’t do silence. Having been thrown into a retreat as such and well. But through my own solution I came up with reading at this time. It the best own idea I had because since reading I have been able to relax and let God speak to me rather than drift of in my own world per se. The priest rather thankfully agreed to it (as I wouldn’t have read if he had said no-honestly) and also said I can read anything so long as I relax and let God speak to me at this time. This is a far better way of handling this time in Communion than I have been doing so in the past.

But again, I still think it hard when people want to kind of do their own thing when its a joint service? If everyone literally did their own thing where would we be in that hour? Some want silence so they get a period of silence, some want music so they get that. etc Surely its not really about what we want but the time we offer praise and worship to God. any personl reflection can be done before and after any service anywhere?

Interesting observations and experience. Thanks for that.

I think your points are well taken and that Pastors who try to bring the liturgy in line with the mind of the Latin Church on the incorporation of silence, will have to do so by also providing solid catechesis on what the faithful are supposed to be doing during those times, and the theology behind it. In addition, regular reminders of why and how it is done would have to be put in the bulletin, etc.

Even here on CAF where posters are pretty informed about faith, I have encountered stiff resistance on this topic from Roman Catholics who claim that these teachings are not actually proper or simply do not wish to believe them.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I was under the impression that the first part of your post… …was in reference time for silence in the Latin tradition and that you disagreed with the teaching that silence can be a communal act. I guess I misunderstood that aspect of your post. Where you only speaking on Eastern praxis with that comment or the whole of Christian thought?

Peace,

I will be honest here and say this, the whole reason I moved East is because what the East teaches so comes easy to me and I feel it is more natural, more sensible. I don’t get the West, aside from applying legalistic concepts I don’t see how the spirituality works. But I admit, that is just me, perhaps my mind is oriented a certain way and the Eastern praxis just fits that orientation perfectly. I do see good and holy people who practice Western spirituality but for me, I can never do that.

So in relation to that, I just can’t process in my mind how a vague definition of silence translates into communal practice. We say “reverent” silence, but what is “reverence”? Should I be kneeling? Should I be thinking about God? Should I be mentally saying a specific prayer? It is vague, and people definitely won’t go the same path if you leave it to be vague.

 

[jwinch2]

I will be honest here and say this, the whole reason I moved East is because what the East teaches so comes easy to me and I feel it is more natural, more sensible. I don’t get the West, aside from applying legalistic concepts I don’t see how the spirituality works. But I admit, that is just me, perhaps my mind is oriented a certain way and the Eastern praxis just fits that orientation perfectly. I do see good and holy people who practice Western spirituality but for me, I can never do that.

So in relation to that, I just can’t process in my mind how a vague definition of silence translates into communal practice. We say “reverent” silence, but what is “reverence”? Should I be kneeling? Should I be thinking about God? Should I be mentally saying a specific prayer? It is vague, and people definitely won’t go the same path if you leave it to be vague.

Fair points. I do think there needs to be far better teaching on this concept in the Church. I listened to a presentation not too long ago about the Offering of Gifts in the OF of the Mass and what we are supposed to be doing as the faithful. I’ll give you a hint, it isn’t singing a Marty Haugen tune while the offering plate is passed around. We are supposed to be offering ourselves, our fears, hopes, dreams, shortcomings, etc. to Christ along with the Bread and Wine so that it also, can be transformed and we can be conformed to Christ. More than likely, this should be performed silently, though I haven’t seen anything specifically saying that.

I would love dearly to see greater emphasis on the teaching of silence in the Mass within the Latin Church. I have had several people here on CAF lately think I am totally making the concept up, even when I provide them with documents from the Sacred Councils, the GIRM, Pope Benedict’s writings on the Liturgy, etc. What this tells me is that this teaching has been largely ignored for whatever reason.

During the silent moments we have at Mass I try to listen for God, to open myself up to whatever he is trying to tell me, or even better, us as a family, with varying levels of success of course. I also take the time to thank Him for the Mass and for my brothers and sisters around me.

You mentioned that you do not understand the spirituality of the West. If you are interested, I can recommend a couple of books which have helped me greatly in this area. If not, no worries.

As for the rest, I am very happy that you have found your spiritual home in the East and pray that you find continued joy in that holy and august Tradition.

 

[mardukm]

I think I have always assumed that private prayer is not something we do when we are worshipping God in a community per se as at church.

But recently my priest has taught me a a little about this time in Communion. In the choir I am singing so hadn’t been an issue with me. But when I am serving my mind has tended to just unhealthily drift.

Some of the church wanted this part to be total silence which the Priest was willing to give it a go for them. I instantly dreaded it even more because I genuinely don’t do silence. Having been thrown into a retreat as such and well. But through my own solution I came up with reading at this time. It the best own idea I had because since reading I have been able to relax and let God speak to me rather than drift of in my own world per se. The priest rather thankfully agreed to it (as I wouldn’t have read if he had said no-honestly) and also said I can read anything so long as I relax and let God speak to me at this time. This is a far better way of handling this time in Communion than I have been doing so in the past.

But again, I still think it hard when people want to kind of do their own thing when its a joint service? If everyone literally did their own thing where would we be in that hour? Some want silence so they get a period of silence, some want music so they get that. etc Surely its not really about what we want but the time we offer praise and worship to God. any personl reflection can be done before and after any service anywhere?

Growing up in the Coptic Church, I was taught to give thanks to God in my heart and mind (silently, of course) for whatever I have to be thankful for throughout the Eucharistic Liturgy (which is a thanksgiving) when it comes to mind. These inner prayers have a greater significance during Liturgy because at Liturgy we are among the choirs of angels and saints and at the foot of the cross.

During times of kneeling, we are doing so in a spirit of contrition and humility for our sins and people’s minds will reflect on how they have grieved God. I am not expected to be sorrowful for another person’s sins or the one kneeling next to me.

During the prayer for the congregation, people will think of their own needs or the ones closest to them.

There are certain times when the priest prays silently. Are we supposed to just leave our minds blank? No doubt, people will have their own thoughts and the Church directs the congregation to have holy thoughts appropriate for the spirit of the moment.

All these silent thoughts and communications to God are not rejected by the Church. It is part of the communal event of the Liturgy because we are not bringing them to our hearts and minds in sheer privacy, but among the choirs of angels and saints at the altar of God even if they are silent.

I seriously don’t understand brother Constantine’s legalistic resistance to things done in silence during the Liturgy. We are not robots but human beings, and the Church understands that fully.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

Fair points. I do think there needs to be far better teaching on this concept in the Church. I listened to a presentation not too long ago about the Offering of Gifts in the OF of the Mass and what we are supposed to be doing as the faithful. I’ll give you a hint, it isn’t singing a Marty Haugen tune while the offering plate is passed around. We are supposed to be offering ourselves, our fears, hopes, dreams, shortcomings, etc. to Christ along with the Bread and Wine so that it also, can be transformed and we can be conformed to Christ. More than likely, this should be performed silently, though I haven’t seen anything specifically saying that.

By comparisson, as the Gifts are brought to the altar by the clergy we sing the Cherubikon or Cherubic Hymn. The Cherubim themselves escort the Gifts to the altar and we unite ourselves to them through the hymn. And we sing the hymn over and over until the clergy are ready for the procession and then they recite the commemorations (May the Lord remember in His Kingdom… Pope, Patriarch, Metropolitan, Bishop, Priests, Deacons, all the clergy, all those in monastic life, and all the Orthodox faithful). Then we proceed to sing the second part of the hymn.

I would love dearly to see greater emphasis on the teaching of silence in the Mass within the Latin Church. I have had several people here on CAF lately think I am totally making the concept up, even when I provide them with documents from the Sacred Councils, the GIRM, Pope Benedict’s writings on the Liturgy, etc. What this tells me is that this teaching has been largely ignored for whatever reason.

I know they’re there, I’ve been to Latin Mass (TLM). I don’t mind Sacred Silence, but I just don’t get the concept how that feeds into communal worship. If it is outside Liturgy then we can keep everyone down while everyone prays individually.

During the silent moments we have at Mass I try to listen for God, to open myself up to whatever he is trying to tell me, or even better, us as a family, with varying levels of success of course. I also take the time to thank Him for the Mass and for my brothers and sisters around me.

You mentioned that you do not understand the spirituality of the West. If you are interested, I can recommend a couple of books which have helped me greatly in this area. If not, no worries.

Thanks. Maybe someday. You can give them the names to me but it may take a while for me to get to them, I have built up quite a list of “to read” books.

As for the rest, I am very happy that you have found your spiritual home in the East and pray that you find continued joy in that holy and august Tradition.

Thank you. You have my prayers as well, as unworthy as I may be.

 

[jwinch2]

Thanks. Maybe someday. You can give them the names to me but it may take a while for me to get to them, I have built up quite a list of “to read” books.

I feel your pain. I have quite the pile going myself.

Thank you. You have my prayers as well, as unworthy as I may be.

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

By comparisson, as the Gifts are brought to the altar by the clergy we sing the Cherubikon or Cherubic Hymn. The Cherubim themselves escort the Gifts to the altar and we unite ourselves to them through the hymn. And we sing the hymn over and over until the clergy are ready for the procession and then they recite the commemorations (May the Lord remember in His Kingdom… Pope, Patriarch, Metropolitan, Bishop, Priests, Deacons, all the clergy, all those in monastic life, and all the Orthodox faithful). Then we proceed to sing the second part of the hymn.

Interesting. I Learned something there.

Thanks,

 

[ConstantineTG]

Interesting. I Learned something there.

Thanks,

I wish we had more frequent RC visitors and I’d like to see the reaction on their face when they hear the priest say, “and all you Orthodox Christians…”

 

[jwinch2]

I wish we had more frequent RC visitors and I’d like to see the reaction on their face when they hear the priest say, “and all you Orthodox Christians…”

I’ll just think about it with a lowercase “o”.

My wife and I haven’t had the opportunity to attend a DL yet, but we are planning to soon. There is what appears to be a very vibrant community in the DFW Metro, that we would like to try. stsophiaukrainian.cc/

The last time we were down there for Mass, we went to an Anglican Use parish to give that a go but we are hoping to attend a DL soon.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ll just think about it with a lowercase “o”.

My wife and I haven’t had the opportunity to attend a DL yet, but we are planning to soon. There is what appears to be a very vibrant community in the DFW Metro, that we would like to try. stsophiaukrainian.cc/

The last time we were down there for Mass, we went to an Anglican Use parish to give that a go but we are hoping to attend a DL soon.

The website doesn’t say what language the Liturgy is in. Is it assumed to be in English?

Some books would have the “O” in lowercase. In any case, even the Orthodox Church wouldn’t say that the word “orthodox” in the Liturgy denotes denominational lines. It literally means “Christians who follow the true faith”.

 

[mardukm]

I know they’re there, I’ve been to Latin Mass (TLM). I don’t mind Sacred Silence, but I just don’t get the concept how that feeds into communal worship.

It is communal because it is done in the setting of the Liturgy, which is a real participation in the spiritual Mass/DL/HQ in heaven as recorded in Scripture. “Communal” is defined not just in the context of the physical congregation, but also and especially in the context of the mystical communion of Saints. The physical congregation is part of the mystical communion of saints in a deeper and real way than if one were outside of Mass/DL/HQ. When we pray silently, even with our own personal prayer (at appropriate times and in the appropriate spirit of the moment, of course) during Mass/DL/HQ, the choirs of angels and saints in heaven pray with us in the Holy Spirit. Our prayers are all joined as a community, even if it is silent and personal, as the mystical body of Christ. Our prayers, even silent and personal, are heard by God and brought as incense before the altar of God. This is what actually happens during the heavenly Liturgy. What would normally be merely private becomes transformed into a communal event during Mass/DL/HQ because the Mass/DL/HQ is primarily a mystical/spiritual union with the entire body of Christ that transcends both space and time, a participation in the heavenly Liturgy as recorded in Scripture.

In short, we cannot limit the communal sense of the Mass/DL/HQ only to what we perceive physically, and even immediately. Admittedly, this might be a more mystical approach to the Mass/DL/HQ than what you are used to, but I hope the explanation helps somewhat.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[RyanBlack]

I’ll just think about it with a lowercase “o”.

My wife and I haven’t had the opportunity to attend a DL yet, but we are planning to soon. There is what appears to be a very vibrant community in the DFW Metro, that we would like to try. stsophiaukrainian.cc/

The last time we were down there for Mass, we went to an Anglican Use parish to give that a go but we are hoping to attend a DL soon.

There’s also St. Basil the Great Byzantine Catholic Church in Irving.

stbasilsinirving.org/

 

[jwinch2]

There’s also St. Basil the Great Byzantine Catholic Church in Irving.

stbasilsinirving.org/

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[ConstantineTG]

It is communal because it is done in the setting of the Liturgy, which is a real participation in the spiritual Mass/DL/HQ in heaven as recorded in Scripture. “Communal” is defined not just in the context of the physical congregation, but also and especially in the context of the mystical communion of Saints. The physical congregation is part of the mystical communion of saints in a deeper and real way than if one were outside of Mass/DL/HQ. When we pray silently, even with our own personal prayer (at appropriate times and in the appropriate spirit of the moment, of course) during Mass/DL/HQ, the choirs of angels and saints in heaven pray with us in the Holy Spirit. Our prayers are all joined as a community, even if it is silent and personal, as the mystical body of Christ. Our prayers, even silent and personal, are heard by God and brought as incense before the altar of God. This is what actually happens during the heavenly Liturgy. What would normally be merely private becomes transformed into a communal event during Mass/DL/HQ because the Mass/DL/HQ is primarily a mystical/spiritual union with the entire body of Christ that transcends both space and time, a participation in the heavenly Liturgy as recorded in Scripture.

In short, we cannot limit the communal sense of the Mass/DL/HQ only to what we perceive physically, and even immediately. Admittedly, this might be a more mystical approach to the Mass/DL/HQ than what you are used to, but I hope the explanation helps somewhat.

Blessings,
Marduk

Sorry, it still doesn’t sync up to me. If your mind is different from what is in the mind of the person next to you, there is nothing communal about that.

 

[jwinch2]

Sorry, it still doesn’t sync up to me. If your mind is different from what is in the mind of the person next to you, there is nothing communal about that.

Let me ask a question. Have you ever found yourself singing or doing a response but thinking about something else at the same time, like you were there, but not really there? I know I have. In cases like that, even though you are subconsciously participating in the same outward actions, you are consciously somewhere else. In the language of the Church we might say that someone doing that in the Mass is not in a state of full, active, and conscious participation. Do you honestly think that does not happen in the Mass or the Divine Liturgy when people are doing things that they have done hundreds or thousands of times before?

Now, lets take the converse scenario. Have you ever been with a family member, close friend, etc. where there was outward silence, but you were totally on the same page and thinking about the same things? It happens to me frequently. Now, if you extrapolate that to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, people can be silent, but focused on the same things, uniting their prayers to those of the saints and angels or simply listening together, in silence, to what God wishes to tell them.

To me, outward silence does not preclude communal action anymore than outward action implies it.

 

[mardukm]

Sorry, it still doesn’t sync up to me. If your mind is different from what is in the mind of the person next to you, there is nothing communal about that.

I see. So you interpret unity of mind as complete uniformity of thought? That seems just a bit legalistic to me, brother. That’s why I made the comment earlier that you are making the DL seem like a police state.

I interpret unity of mind to refer to uniformity in intention and purpose. Using the example of thanksgiving I gave in an earlier post, Copts are directed to give thanksgiving in heart and soul for anything that we have to be thankful for during the Eucharistic Liturgy. One person will be thankful for one thing in their mind, another person will be thankful for another thing, and another person…etc. But all come together with a mind of thanksgiving. There is not uniformity of thought, but there is uniformity in intention and purpose.

Again, during the prayer of the congregation, each person will have different needs on their mind that they express silently to the Lord, but all are in a communal and common attitude of supplication to our Lord. There is no uniformity of thought, but there is uniformity in intention and purpose.

The examples could be multiplied.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[5Loaves]

If your mind is different from what is in the mind of the person next to you, there is nothing communal about that.

:

 

[babochka]

The website doesn’t say what language the Liturgy is in. Is it assumed to be in English?

Some books would have the “O” in lowercase. In any case, even the Orthodox Church wouldn’t say that the word “orthodox” in the Liturgy denotes denominational lines. It literally means “Christians who follow the true faith”.

Thus it is currently translated in the Ruthenian church as “all you Christians of the true faith”.

 

[Aramis]

You’re supposed to be listening and taking in what the priest is saying

Assuming you can hear him. I went to one (Roman) parish where the homily was inaudible from about the 5th row back.

Don’t have that problem with Rev. Fr. James nor Father Deacon Steven.