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ByzCathCantor
Guest
We chant
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mardukm
Guest
But the latter does not necessitate the former.
There really is no “break” from the communal spirit of the Liturgy even when we have personal thoughts that are not identical to another person’s. The Holy Spirit is the one that ensures there will be homothumadon at all times.
Blessings,
Marduk
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The Byzantine praxis dictates that there should be no imagination during prayer. Read this nice article about the Jesus Prayer:
orthodoxprayer.org/Articles_files/Colliander-JesusPrayer.html
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mardukm
Guest
By imagination, I assume you mean when the article says “As soon as your thoughts are not occupied in your work’s behalf, let them turn again to Prayer.”
OK. So the priest says, “let us pray for the sick.” Our work is to pray for the sick. But my immediate thought would be for my wife who has a fever. The person next to me might be thinking of his aunt who was just hospitalized. Is my thought opposed to my work, just because it is different from the one sitting next to me at Mass/DL? Different thoughts, same purpose - to pray for the sick. The Spirit brings it all together before the altar of God among the mystical community of Saints.
Yes, I know we can formally ask for individual petitions to be read out loud, but those personal petitions that remain silent are certainly not excluded from the intentions of the mystical community of Saints that are united by and in the Spirit before the altar of God.
Blessings,
Marduk
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Even if you are praying, is your prayer the right prayer? Why trust your own prayer over the prayer that has been given to you by a Saint? In the Byzantine praxis, there is less preference for “free-style” prayer and more emphasis on prayers that were written by Fathers, Saints, Monks, etc. The more uniform the prayer is and the more theologically correct it is, the better. There is heavy emphasis on lex orandi, lex credendi in the Byzantine praxis.
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mardukm
Guest
What does “free style” prayer have to do with any of this? Just because my thoughts and intentions are different from the person sitting next to me does not make a prayer “free style.”
I would really love to hear from another Eastern Catholic on this fwhole matter, because I think your statements are pretty extreme.
Blessings,
Marduk
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5Loaves
Guest
I might repeat my earlier post… Sorry. You have charitably countered better than I likely could have done, given how totally I don’t agree with the perspective being insisted upon.
“Unity in diversity” is a phrase often used in the East-- Orthodox and Catholic. The kind of super correct, black and white statements given in this thread as Eastern praxis are simply alien to my experience of the East from my own worship in Orthodoxy and Greek Catholics of various Churches (OCA, ROCOR, Greek Orthodox, Antiochian, Melkite, Byzantine/Ruthenian, and my own Russian Greek Catholic), and from study, and general living my ordinary life amongst these communities of lay and clergy. So back to my origional response: “
”
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
FWIW - if one considers the question in the OP at face value, the answer is “no”, at least as compared with the intentional moments included in the OF of the Roman Rite. We also wouldn’t think of engaging in individual, structured prayer during the DL, if you will, in the manner discussed elsewhere here as during a celebration of the EF of Mass (e.g. praying the Rosary during Mass).
However, as well noted in this discussion, there is no doubt that our personal intentions are offered up as well as general, corporate intentions during the course of the Divine Liturgy. Liturgy, by definition, is the work of the people, but that does not preclude an element of personal participation, reflection and intention in the context of communal prayer. It is a gathering of spiritual cares, if you will, which includes the very personal as well as the widely general. In this way, our own private intentions and concerns also become those of our parish community, and our prayers are multiplied, if you will, when offered communally. This is entirely consistent with the notion of Liturgy from the Eastern (specifically Byzantine)perspective.
We should not mistake the offering of personal intentions in this context as private prayer, and should also not conclude that offering such is inconsistent with communal prayer, which is by definition a gathering of the intentions of the religious community, as we pray rather deliberately for the common welfare of all God’s people.
However, as well noted in this discussion, there is no doubt that our personal intentions are offered up as well as general, corporate intentions during the course of the Divine Liturgy. Liturgy, by definition, is the work of the people, but that does not preclude an element of personal participation, reflection and intention in the context of communal prayer. It is a gathering of spiritual cares, if you will, which includes the very personal as well as the widely general. In this way, our own private intentions and concerns also become those of our parish community, and our prayers are multiplied, if you will, when offered communally. This is entirely consistent with the notion of Liturgy from the Eastern (specifically Byzantine)perspective.
We should not mistake the offering of personal intentions in this context as private prayer, and should also not conclude that offering such is inconsistent with communal prayer, which is by definition a gathering of the intentions of the religious community, as we pray rather deliberately for the common welfare of all God’s people.
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Cecil_Corn
Guest
Although a Catholic now, I was Orthodox for a number of years and know many Orthodox priests and monastics. I also worship in Eastern Catholic parishes when the opportunity arises. I have never heard of this extreme uniformity of prayer during DL that Constantine seems to believe is mandatory in the Christian East.
I might repeat my earlier post… Sorry. You have charitably countered better than I likely could have done, given how totally I don’t agree with the perspective being insisted upon.
“Unity in diversity” is a phrase often used in the East-- Orthodox and Catholic. The kind of super correct, black and white statements given in this thread as Eastern praxis are simply alien to my experience of the East from my own worship in Orthodoxy and Greek Catholics of various Churches (OCA, ROCOR, Greek Orthodox, Antiochian, Melkite, Byzantine/Ruthenian, and my own Russian Greek Catholic), and from study, and general living my ordinary life amongst these communities of lay and clergy. So back to my origional response: “
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CDB1718
Guest
One of the things I appreciate about the Byzantine liturgy is the individual diversity. One person is lighting candles, one is reverencing an icon with his daughter, one is making the Sign of the Cross to unite herself with a petition mentioned in the litany, one is standing, one is sitting. There are only a few times in the Liturgy everyone is expected to stop what they’re doing and focus on the same thing. The priest comes out to the nave and the deacon tells everyone to be attentive when those times come.
goarch.org/archdiocese/departments/outreach/resources/guidelinesworship
We are all able to meet the Lord where we are during the liturgy. What I see on this thread is examples of how different people are able to engage the liturgy and meet the Lord. It works for them. The beauty of the Byzantine liturgy is that they have the freedom to pursue it.
goarch.org/archdiocese/departments/outreach/resources/guidelinesworship
We are all able to meet the Lord where we are during the liturgy. What I see on this thread is examples of how different people are able to engage the liturgy and meet the Lord. It works for them. The beauty of the Byzantine liturgy is that they have the freedom to pursue it.
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babochka
Guest
Exactly. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
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Aramis
Guest
I love how it fills all the senses. Sight, sound, smell, even taste and touch.
The riotous illustration with iconography, teaching through story cues and shared stories. The overt symbolism of the processions, the deacon’s entrances and exits…
The riotous illustration with iconography, teaching through story cues and shared stories. The overt symbolism of the processions, the deacon’s entrances and exits…
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