Is there salvation outside of the Church?

[rinnie]

your view is not clear to me…

a person who is Cathoic will get to Heaven even if he is not a formal member of the Church…

i have met Protestants who were more Ctholic than some Cthoics i know… which i agree isn’t saying a whole lot…

Distracted I said you cannot get salvation outside of the CC. Jesus CHrist is the CC distracted. THere is not salvation outside of Jesus CHrist. Jesus and his church are one. DO you get it now.

Remember Jesus is like a bride the bridegroom. 2 become one. Jesus, his church One.

Remember scripture Distracted. Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME. Who are You IT is me Jesus the one you are persecuting. Paul was persecuting the CC. THe CHurch and CHrist one.

 

[distracted]

Distracted I said you cannot get salvation outside of the CC. Jesus CHrist is the CC distracted. THere is not salvation outside of Jesus CHrist. Jesus and his church are one. DO you get it now.

Remember Jesus is like a bride the bridegroom. 2 become one. Jesus, his church One.

Remember scripture Distracted. Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME. Who are You IT is me Jesus the one you are persecuting. Paul was persecuting the CC. THe CHurch and CHrist one.

i guess i may still be struggling with this… I belive there is no salvation outside the Church… totally. it stands to reason since God only established ONE Church and obviously he would wnat all his children THERE… so they can get saved. he wouldn’t establ a Church unless it had power to save…

but what if someone doesn’t know that and yet lives a good life according to his conscience?? What if he basically lives as a Catholic but, say, is wary of religion because he has known really awfulChristians or something… just doens’t go for religion… community worship… but … .say he hears about the Catholic beliefs and believes in them but say he has some emotional problem about Church… I have met many like this… bad experience in childhood, etc… and yet that person can believe, just not feel the need to join the Church formally… say he has not heard of this no salv outside the Church thing…

 

[rinnie]

i guess i may still be struggling with this… I belive there is no salvation outside the Church… totally. it stands to reason since God only established ONE Church and obviously he would wnat all his children THERE… so they can get saved. he wouldn’t establ a Church unless it had power to save…

but what if someone doesn’t know that and yet lives a good life according to his conscience?? What if he basically lives as a Catholic but, say, is wary of religion because he has known really awfulChristians or something… just doens’t go for religion… community worship… but … .say he hears about the Catholic beliefs and believes in them but say he has some emotional problem about Church… I have met many like this… bad experience in childhood, etc… and yet that person can believe, just not feel the need to join the Church formally… say he has not heard of this no salv outside the Church thing…

Becasue you are seeing the CC as a Church distracted not what it truly is THE LIVING CHRIST. Jesus is the Church. The CHurch is not a building distracted its CHrist himself.

So if CHrist is the Church he can save someone can he not? Sure. But can a person be saved without Jesus Christ NO? But Jesus is the CHurch do you understand now?

 

[distracted]

Becasue you are seeing the CC as a Church distracted not what it truly is THE LIVING CHRIST. Jesus is the Church. The CHurch is not a building distracted its CHrist himself.

So if CHrist is the Church he can save someone can he not? Sure. But can a person be saved without Jesus Christ NO? But Jesus is the CHurch do you understand now?

i have always (or at least for sevral yrs ) known that Jesus is the Church… One day years ago i was praying and i suddenly realized and said out loud, only to myself… the Church is Jesus
and then i heard that some saint said this… so it was confrimed… not that i needed it to be .

anyway… if that is the case, and we know it is, Why don’t more Catholics TELL people to get their sorry a**s to the Church…
Catholics don’t evangelize … i seem to be the only one in my parish doing this but that is not something i can know, obviously… Still, i rarely hear Ctholics telling non-C about the faith… It seems when Catholics socialize they just want to talk about silly mundane unimportant things and when you inject some serious element into the conversation they act like you are nuts.,… or do i only speak of women and their socializing???

sorry about the choice o’words… couldn’t help it… …

 

[rinnie]

i have always (or at least for sevral yrs ) known that Jesus is the Church… One day years ago i was praying and i suddenly realized and said out loud, only to myself… the Church is Jesus
and then i heard that some saint said this… so it was confrimed… not that i needed it to be .

anyway… if that is the case, and we know it is, Why don’t more Catholics TELL people to get their sorry a**s to the Church…
Catholics don’t evangelize … i seem to be the only one in my parish doing this but that is not something i can know, obviously… Still, i rarely hear Ctholics telling non-C about the faith… It seems when Catholics socialize they just want to talk about silly mundane unimportant things and when you inject some serious element into the conversation they act like you are nuts.,… or do i only speak of women and their socializing???

sorry about the choice o’words… couldn’t help it… …

Because distracted they will not accept this teaching. We do tell them they tell us we are brainwashed, brain dead. you name it. They say that because we believe in the RCC and its teaching and do not question it, we are stupid or something.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

This supports what TobiMex is saying.

Many Catholics are never taught about salvation by believing in the Son of God. They don’t understand the gospel.

I agree completely. The so-called Catholic schools are usually Catholc in name only. One of our friends who homeschools her children, ended up sending one of them to a local “Catholic” school. In the religion class they were taught all kinds of crazy things. She called to read some of the questions on her daughter’s test. There was one in particular that was horrible. I forget the exact question, but it was some kind of stomach turning political correct non-sense, and the two choices she was given for answers were both contrary to what the Church teaches.

Most Catholics today are totally ignorance of what the Church teaches. This is due to bad schools, negligent Bishops, a Pope who took no effective measures to correct the situation, and parents neglecting their duties.

Keep in mind that I am a Traditional Catholic. Traditional Catholics are under no illusions with respect to the situation in the Church. We believe we are either in THE great apostasy, or at least in a prefigurement of it (which is what I think).

The truth is out there, but, aside from a few very rare exceptions, it is not being taught to the school kids - and it hasn’t been for about 45 years. At best they are taught a watered down version of the faith which makes no impression on them, but normally it is not the faith at all that they’re being taught.

And the Seminaries are not much better. In addition to the immoral behavior, the Priest are taught explicit heresies. A local conservative Priest recently read the Syllabus of errors of Pius IX and told me that in the Seminary he was taught, as being true, every single one of the errors.

The result of this mess is a state of almost total confusion. Most Catholics today don’t even attend Mass; of those who do, most reject what the Church teaches (birth control, etc.); of the ones that do accept what the Church teaches, they are often confused on exactly what it does teach. You can see that here on these boards. Most people here have enough zeal for the faith to come onto a Catholic message board. These are probably, on average, the most fervant Catholics. Yet there is much confusion even here. God bless their zeal for the faith, but it shows the state of Catholic catechesis.

Another danger is that the ignorant Catholics are very easy prey for a Protestant with a few select Bible verses. Since most Catholics don’t know the Bible and are ignorant of their faith, it is very easy for a smiling Protestant to lead them out of the Church and into their sect.

Holding on to the faith during this apostasy takes a little more effort than it did in the past. Today you can’t always trust the Priest, but we have something today that past generations did not; namely, we can access anything we desire relatively easily. If we have a computer (and all of us here do), we can find the answer to just about any question we have.

So, it takes a little more effort to keep the faith today, but the good God will reward our efforts.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Many Catholics are never taught about salvation by believing in the Son of God. They don’t understand the gospel.

I just wanted to add one thing. In your prior posts, you have implied that believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus is believing the Gospel, as if this is all that a person is requried to believe. While it is true that this is part of the Gospel, simply believing it is not enough. A person has to believe all that Jesus taught, including what he taught before He was put to death and rose again.

 

[ron77nyc]

How do you know? Again do you claim to know what’s deep in anothers heart. You have no answered that question.

By talking to them. These are not complete strangers I am talking about. One friend told me: “My whole family goes to church and it makes them nice people but I don’t believe in Jesus.” Is he born of the Spirit?

My grandmother prays to St. Theresa but I asked her more than once: “What do you believe about Jesus?” and the conversation ends. She pretends to not understand what I’m saying.

How do you know that a baptised infant is born of the Spirit? Have you heard Bill Maher talk about faith? He’s a Catholic who is an atheist. He thinks people of faith have a mental disorder.

 

[ron77nyc]

I just wanted to add one thing. In your prior posts, you have implied that believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus is believing the Gospel, as if this is all that a person is requried to believe. While it is true that this is part of the Gospel, simply believing it is not enough. A person has to believe all that Jesus taught, including what he taught before He was put to death and rose again.

I wrote in another post that I don’t believe in faith alone salvation but faith in Jesus is the starting point and one sign of being born of the Spirit. If someone tells me “I don’t believe in Jesus” or “I don’t know what I believe” then that tells me he is not born of the Spirit.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

By talking to them. These are not complete strangers I am talking about. One friend told me: “My whole family goes to church and it makes them nice people but I don’t believe in Jesus.” Is he born of the Spirit?

My grandmother prays to St. Theresa but I asked her more than once: “What do you believe about Jesus?” and the conversation ends. She pretends to not understand what I’m saying.

How do you know that a baptised infant is born of the Spirit? Have you heard Bill Maher talk about faith? [SIGN]He’s a Catholic who is an atheist[/SIGN]. He thinks people of faith have a mental disorder.

There you go. He is a Catholic that is an Atheist. He is not a Catholic. He is a person who may have been Baptised and received the free gift of God but threw it away. A Catholic is a Christian who is Christ like. How can a Athest be Christ like? HE is what is called a fallen Catholic. He fell from grace.

God gave him grace and free will. He choose to reject that Grace. Case closed.

So are you saying that you do not believe that Baptism is not the pouring of the Holy Spirit? How do I know that the Holy Spirit is real because Jesus promised me that. Faith, Grace of GOd whatever you want to call it. I believe in Jesus Christ quite simple.

But just because a person can reject Grace given at Baptism does not mean it does not exist.

What about the People who accept that Grace and are thankful for it. And pray for more grace to grow even stronger in CHrist. Again free will. You ask and you will receive. You reject and GOd will let you walk away.

 

[rinnie]

And I cannot claim to know your grandmothers heart or mind. Ask her why she never answers you. Maybe she does not like you Just kidding. But alot of people to figure why bother, they shake the sand as the bible says of someone who they feel do not believe or will not accept the word anyway. But I don’t know, you will have to ask her.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

I wrote in another post that I don’t believe in faith alone salvation but faith in Jesus is the starting point and one sign of being born of the Spirit.

For an adult you have it backwards. A person does not believe *because *they were born again. An adult must must believe first, then they can be born again.

Faith and grace are two differeng things. Grace is the supernatural life of God that is infused into the soul. Just as the body without the soul is dead, so too the soul separated from the life of God is dead. That’s why the Bible speaks of people as being “dead” when they are still alive (on the natural level).

Since grace gives supernatural life to the soul, it is grace that brings about the new birth. Faith is something of the intellect. It’s a theological virtue that is possessed by those who believe. A person can be in mortal sin (with no grace in their soul) , yet still believe and therefore have the virtue of faith.

A Catholic who commits a mortal sin and falls from grace, does not thereby also lose faith. Faith is the foundation, but grace is what saves, since it is a participation in the very life of God himself.

Faith and grace are two different things. Without grace you can still have faith; but without faith a person cannot have grace.

 

[ron77nyc]

[SIGN][/SIGN]
So are you saying that you do not believe that Baptism is not the pouring of the Holy Spirit? How do I know that the Holy Spirit is real because Jesus promised me that. Faith, Grace of GOd whatever you want to call it. I believe in Jesus Christ quite simple.

But just because a person can reject Grace given at Baptism does not mean it does not exist.

What about the People who accept that Grace and are thankful for it. And pray for more grace to grow even stronger in CHrist. Again free will. You ask and you will receive. You reject and GOd will let you walk away.

Some people accept grace. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. What I’m saying is what I said on another thread: “The sacraments by themselves without faith and knowledge are the equivalent of taking vitamins and not eating food.”

When parents bring children to be baptised, the parents are supposed to be believers in Jesus Christ. Too many times people go through the motions without faith and the Church lets them do it. The result is a church full of people without faith.

 

[ron77nyc]

For an adult you have it backwards. A person does not believe *because *they were born again. An adult must must believe first, then they can be born again.

No I said faith in Jesus is one sign or evidence that a person is born of the Spirit. I didn’t say it came first. Grace comes first to give us faith.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

No I said faith in Jesus is one sign or evidence that a person is born of the Spirit. I didn’t say it came first. Grace comes first to give us faith.

No, faith comes first before a person can be born again… An adult cannot receive grace without first having faith.

Now there are two kinds of grace: The first is sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace, is what causes us to be born again. It is the supernatural life of God that He infuses into the soul, thereby making the person “a partaker of the Divine Nature”, a “temple of the Holy Ghost”, a "new creation in Christ Jesus, and an “adopted” child of God as the Bible says. Sanctifying grace is what brings about the spiritual birth, since it infuses the very life of God into the soul.

The other kind of grace is actual grace. *Actual grace *is sometimes referred to as a inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Actual grace enlightens our mind and moves our will in the right direction. Everyone, both the good and the bad, receive actual grace in order to bring them to God. But actual grace does not bring about the spiritual birth.

In order to receive sanctifying grace, a person must already possess faith. If they don’t have faith, they cannot receive grace (unless they do not possess the use of reason).

Faith comes before grace, and can remain even when grace is lost. Faith is required before a person can receive grace. Therefore, faith is not a sign or evidence that a person has been born again. It is only a sign that the person has faith. Nothing more.

Catechism of Pius X

10 Q: What is grace?

A: Grace is an inward and supernatural gift given to us without any merit of our own, but through the merits of Jesus Christ in order to gain eternal life.

11 Q: How is grace distinguished?

A: Grace is divided into sanctifying grace, which is also called habitual grace, and actual grace.

12 Q: What is sanctifying grace?

A: Sanctifying grace is a supernatural gift inherent in our soul, and rendering us just, adopted children of God and heirs to Paradise.

16 Q: What is actual grace?

A: Actual grace is a supernatural gift which enlightens the mind, moves and strengthens the will in order to enable us to do good and avoid evil.

17 Q: Can we resist the grace of God?

A: Yes, we can resist the grace of God because it does not destroy our free will. …

1 Q: What is the sacrament of Baptism?

A: Baptism is a sacrament by which we are born again to the grace of God, and become Christians.

2 Q: What are the effects of the sacrament of Baptism?

A: The sacrament of Baptism confers first sanctifying grace by which original sin is washed away, as well as all actual sin if any such exists; it remits all punishment due on account of such sins; it imprints the character of a Christian; it makes us children of God, members of the Church, and heirs to Paradise, and enables us to receive the other sacraments.

14 Q: When the person who is being baptized is an adult, what dispositions should he have?

A: An adult who is being baptized, besides faith, should have at least imperfect contrition for the mortal sins he may have committed.
We can see from this that faith is required before a person can receive baptism; and it is baptism that confers grace to the soul thereby causing the person to be born again. Therefore, faith comes before grace.

 

[ron77nyc]

No, faith comes first before a person can be born again… An adult cannot receive grace without first having faith.

Now there are two kinds of grace:…
A: An adult who is being baptized, besides faith, should have at least imperfect contrition for the mortal sins he may have committed.[/INDENT]
We can see from this that faith is required before a person can receive baptism; and it is baptism that confers grace to the soul thereby causing the person to be born again. Therefore, faith comes before grace.

No reason to make it so complicated. We will know a tree by the fruit it bears.

 

[rinnie]

No reason to make it so complicated. We will know a tree by the fruit it bears.

This reminds me of a story in the bible. Remember how the tree looked dead but the man said let me have one year with it, something like that anyway. But the point was that tree had the ability to grow. But to grow it needed to be fed. That ties into the idea of Grace.

God gave that tree roots to grow, but it needed to be tended to. If you love, take care and water, weed etc that tree it will produce good fruit. But if you ignore that tree it will just sit there.

But what my point is Grace that is poured out to us at Baptism needs to be fed, we need to study and learn our faith. But you cannot blame the Church because a person does not continue to grow in their faith, the same way you cannot blame the tree that was ignored. Its like you are blaming GOd because Man refused to accept his grace and grow in it.

Just like a Person who has parents who go to church everyday, and took the Children and then the children quit going. Its not the parents fault. That is what confirmation is about. You are a adult now, and must be responsible for your own learning of the faith now. Your parents did their share. ITs up to you now.

My Dad went to church everyday. He loved his faith, and Church. He wanted that food from God so God fed him. On the same token he could have forced me to go everyday but it would not have given me what he got. Do you understand what I am saying. God throws you a rope, but you gotta extend your hand.

Some people don’t want it, feel they need it. like your friends. How can the Church change that. Especially when you can’t get them in the door to begin with. And like you said they don’t think anythings missing. They will find out someday, its just a matter of when.

 

[ron77nyc]

But what my point is Grace that is poured out to us at Baptism needs to be fed, we need to study and learn our faith. But you cannot blame the Church because a person does not continue to grow in their faith, the same way you cannot blame the tree that was ignored. Its like you are blaming GOd because Man refused to accept his grace and grow in it.

Going back to yesterday’s posts about salvation outside the church and why people leave the church, the matter of being born again was discussed. Catholics say we are born again at baptism. Sometimes they don’t know they’re born again due to poor teaching so they become born again at a Protestant church like I did. In 12 years of Catholic education no one ever told me I was born again or that my eternal destiny was secured by my personal faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Some people don’t want it, feel they need it. like your friends. How can the Church change that. Especially when you can’t get them in the door to begin with. And like you said they don’t think anythings missing. They will find out someday, its just a matter of when.

Is it possible to be born again at baptism and then unborn? If these people were really born again it would not be possible to put that flame out so easily.

1 Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[StillWondering]

Friend, I am living for 3 years now in Mexico City. Mexico as you know is about 95% roman catholic with a growing christian minority. We are talking to people every week. Not even once have I found a roman catholic that knew what I was talking about when I mentioned the need to be born again. So please dont tell me that that is what the RCC teaches. And if the RCC teaches that, why does nobody know about it??? The strang thing here is that my christian church teaches that and thats why I know about it. What sense does it make if it written down somewhere but people never get to know??? More DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE TO KNOW BECAUSE IT IS GODS SALVATION PLAN!!!

I just want to point out that the words “born again” is not magical. You probably know that but you use that term only. I am Vietnamese and was baptized as a child in Vietnam. When I went to college here in America, I had no clue what certain baptized group were saying about born again. You might include me in that list. But if you say “rua toi” then I would know exactly what it is. It’s because not everyone uses the same word. You don’t use the word baptism and you call things differently. Go around and describe it instead maybe you’ll get better results.

If someone described to me to die and to live a new life in Christ the Lord. I would say sure I am Catholic after all (ignoring any prejudice others might have against Catholics) because that is part of being a Catholic. But if you used the term “born again” and only that well I did not know what it meant for years. The phrase is “born again in water and spirit” btw. But the process is what I know, not some term here and there. Well, now, I do after talking to so many non-Catholics. But don’t expect people to read your mind.

 

[7rosario]

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